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So, I have been looking all over and have seen several different answers to this question but I want to be absolutely sure so this is all PFS correct and legal.
As I understand it you can not use weapons blanch on alchemical cartridges because they are paper wrapped around a bullet and black powder, and blanching requires exposure to heat that would set off the powder and plus it would destroy the cartridge if you were to take the bullet out and crafting is not allowed. Blanching is the usual answer when dealing with ranged weapons for me, my inquisitor loved the ghost salts for his arrows. But yeah not going to work with this.
But I have heard that you could purchase alchemical cartridges with adimantine, silver, and cold iron bullets as well as bullets that were already blanched with ghost salts before hand. The problem is that I have never found a price, just people saying that you need to calculate it normally and I am unsure how one would do that considering would I use the blanch price or the actual material price or what?
So do I have this right or was I reading the wrong thing? If I was right, how much would it cost? Sorry if I am completly wrong, and hope y'all have a great day.
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Adamantine Ammunition +60 gp per missile
Alchemical silver Ammunition +2 gp
Weapons made of cold iron cost twice as much to make as their normal counterparts.
Those seem to reply to your question.
Personally, as a GM outside PFS, if you have the gunsmith ability I would allow you to use the blanks on the cartridges while you are making them.
The first step would be to blank the bullets, then you would make the cartridge.
If we go with real life limitations, that probably wouldn't be possible, as lead has a very low melting point, probably so low that the bullet would start to melt while you are applying the blank, but that is a bit hard on the players. And the early firearms bullet sometime were made of iron. A smoothbore hasn't a rifling that will be damaged by a iron bullet.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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No listed price means that your bullets would be up to the GM discretion for every GM.
The other issue is this would in effect be or at least similar to a custom item which isn't permitted in a PFS.
This type of strategy or subject will have high table variance and is the perfect example of things you should not do in PFS if you intend to play with more than one GM.
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Actually, this is covered in the PFS FAQ under How does purchasing/crafting special material alchemical cartridges work in Pathfinder Society Organized Play?
"You figure out the cost of special material ammunition the normal way (or look it up on the table on page 141 of Ultimate Equipment). If you have the Gunsmithing feat you can craft non-alchemical cartridge ammunition for 10% of the cost. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy) you can craft alchemical cartridges for half the price of the cartridge."
[Edit]Nefreet did an even more comprehensive breakdown of the prices in this thread
To quote Nefreet,
This should be the most up-to-date list. I removed Dry Load cartridges because I previously thought you could purchase them individually, but I no longer believe this to be the case.
Name of Ammunition / Regular Cost / Gunsmithing Cost
Black Powder (dose) / 10gp / 1gp
Black Powder (keg) / 1000gp / 100gpRegular Bullet / 1gp / 1sp
Cold Iron Bullet / 2gp / 2sp
Silver Bullet / 25gp / 2gp, 5sp
Pitted Bullet / 5gp / 5sp
Adamantine Bullet / 61gp / 6gp, 1sp
Elysian Bronze Bullet / 21gp / 2gp, 1sp
Alchemical Silver Bullet / 3gp / 3sp
30 Mithral Bullets / 280gp / 28gp
10 Ghost Salted Bullets / 210gp / 201gpRegular Paper Cartridge / 12gp / 6gp
Cold Iron Paper Cartridge / 24gp / 12gp
Adamantine Paper Cartridge / 72gp / 36gp
Elysian Bronze Paper Cartridge / 32gp / 16gp
Alchemical Silver Cartridge / 14gp / 7gp
Mithral Paper Cartridge / 262gp / 131gp*
Dragon's Breath Cartridge / 40gp / 20gp
Entangling Shot Cartridge / 40gp / 20gp
Flare Shot Cartridge / 10gp / 5gp
Salt Shot Cartridge / 12gp / 6gpHERE is a post by Mike Brock confirming how to price out special material ammunition.
Please note that you cannot apply weapon blanches to alchemical cartridges, only to bullets.
* mithral melee weapons with no listed weight are assumed to be 1/2 pound when calculating their cost, but no such rule technically exists for ammunition with no listed weight (such as cartridges). You may encounter table variation when purchasing Mithral cartridges, but considering their high price I doubt many people would buy them anyways.
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Adamantine Ammunition +60 gp per missile
Alchemical silver Ammunition +2 gp
Weapons made of cold iron cost twice as much to make as their normal counterparts.Those seem to reply to your question.
Personally, as a GM outside PFS, if you have the gunsmith ability I would allow you to use the blanks on the cartridges while you are making them.
The first step would be to blank the bullets, then you would make the cartridge.
If we go with real life limitations, that probably wouldn't be possible, as lead has a very low melting point, probably so low that the bullet would start to melt while you are applying the blank, but that is a bit hard on the players. And the early firearms bullet sometime were made of iron. A smoothbore hasn't a rifling that will be damaged by a iron bullet.
Thank you.
No listed price means that your bullets would be up to the GM discretion for every GM.
The other issue is this would in effect be or at least similar to a custom item which isn't permitted in a PFS.
This type of strategy or subject will have high table variance and is the perfect example of things you should not do in PFS if you intend to play with more than one GM.
Thank you.
Actually, this is covered in the PFS FAQ under How does purchasing/crafting special material alchemical cartridges work in Pathfinder Society Organized Play?
"You figure out the cost of special material ammunition the normal way (or look it up on the table on page 141 of Ultimate Equipment). If you have the Gunsmithing feat you can craft non-alchemical cartridge ammunition for 10% of the cost. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy) you can craft alchemical cartridges for half the price of the cartridge."
[Edit]Nefreet did an even more comprehensive breakdown of the prices in this thread
To quote Nefreet,
...This should be the most up-to-date list. I removed Dry Load cartridges because I previously thought you could purchase them individually, but I no longer believe this to be the case.
Name of Ammunition / Regular Cost / Gunsmithing Cost
Black Powder (dose) / 10gp / 1gp
Black Powder (keg) / 1000gp / 100gpRegular Bullet / 1gp / 1sp
Cold Iron Bullet / 2gp / 2sp
Silver Bullet / 25gp / 2gp, 5sp
Pitted Bullet / 5gp / 5sp
Adamantine Bullet / 61gp / 6gp, 1sp
Elysian Bronze Bullet / 21gp / 2gp, 1sp
Thank you so much. I must have just completly missed this when I was browsing through the FAQs, I honestly feel like a bit of an idiot. While expensive I think investing in 10 or each cold iron, adamantine, and alchemical silver bullets would be a wise idea.
The whole gunsmithing cost has me a bit thrown off because would that not count as crafting which we can not do in Society? I do have ranks in craft alchemy as well so would I get to half after gunsmithing is applied? Just want to double check this because I want to figure the cost for using some ghost touch salts to get me the right price for those cartridges.
Again, thank you all for the help, and Hope y'all have a wonderful holiday season.
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Hi Vash. In PFS although generally you cannot craft, there are a few exceptions that are called out in the PFS campaign FAQs. Gunslingers are allowed to do this with the justification that they aren't technically crafting but "buying at a discount."
Rogues and Alchemists that have the Poisoner Archetype and the Master Poisoner ability are allowed to craft poisons.
Alchemists are the only other exception that I'm aware of. They are actually allowed to craft alchemical items and weapons provided their Craft: Alchemy is high enough to meet the DC's and they can afford the cost.
All of this can be found in the PFS FAQ linked earlier.
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Hi Vash. In PFS although generally you cannot craft, there are a few exceptions that are called out in the PFS campaign FAQs. Gunslingers are allowed to do this with the justification that they aren't technically crafting but "buying at a discount."
Rogues and Alchemists that have the Poisoner Archetype and the Master Poisoner ability are allowed to craft poisons.
Alchemists are the only other exception that I'm aware of. They are actually allowed to craft alchemical items and weapons provided their Craft: Alchemy is high enough to meet the DC's and they can afford the cost.
All of this can be found in the PFS FAQ linked earlier.
Thank you very much, you have been such a huge help. So I can purchase all the ammo listed at 50% off after i take the 10% off that I get for gunslinger. Or do I have those backwards? I want to make sure when I calculate for the ghost salts ammunition.
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Gunslinger "crafts" at 10% for non-alchemical ammo and 50% for alchemical ammo (provided you have one rank in Craft (Alchemy)). They don't interact at all. This means you buy bullets and powder at 10% but paper cartridges (and I think all the other cartridges) at 50%.
You cannot make Ghost Salt alchemical cartridges. You Ghost Salt normal bullets and fire them the usual way (with black powder). 200 gp for the Ghost Salt, 1 gp for 10 bullets (10%), 10 gp for 10 doses of black powder (10%).
Okay. It just seems odd that you can buy adamantine. alchemical silver, and cold iron cartridges but not ghost salted one's, but yeah it would be simple enough to reload a regular load for incorporeal enemies.
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You can't blanch cartridges because they explicitly said you couldn't. It doesn't make any more or less sense than the fact that a cold iron cartridges costs twice as much as a regular cartridge when the only cost changing is the bullet. Basically, "paper cartridge" is a specific item and not just a weapon casing. You don't take a bullet, powder, and paper (all cost separately) and make it, you just make it (and cut the price by 50%). You can't Ghost Salt it because holding a freaking bullet in a casing (paper and gunpowder) over a fire is a good way to lose a bullet (and a hand).
Of course, since the bullet itself is still just a hunk of metal before the cartridge is assembled, you should be able to ghost salt the hunk of metal before you put the bullet together.
Not that Pathfinder is simulationist or should be... I'm just saying that there is no reason to say it couldn't be done without causing an explosion.|
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Adamantine, silver, and cold iron cartridges are made out of those metals. the bullet in them is solid Adamantine, etc. you can't buy a cartridge pre-blanched with Adamantine, silver, etc. blanch. There is not option in the game to make something out of a material that affects incorporeal creatures. Only the blanch. So you can't buy ghost salt paper cartridges. That's the difference. If "ghost iron" or something like that existed, where the bullet could be made from the material and not just coated in it, then you could do it. But that is not currently the case, so we have to go by the ruling, which does not allow for blanched paper cartridges.
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Adamantine, silver, and cold iron cartridges are made out of those metals. the bullet in them is solid Adamantine, etc. you can't buy a cartridge pre-blanched with Adamantine, silver, etc. blanch. There is not option in the game to make something out of a material that affects incorporeal creatures. Only the blanch. So you can't buy ghost salt paper cartridges. That's the difference. If "ghost iron" or something like that existed, where the bullet could be made from the material and not just coated in it, then you could do it. But that is not currently the case, so we have to go by the ruling, which does not allow for blanched paper cartridges.
Thank you so much dude, that was basically the answer I was looking for. I was really happy that I would be able to buy the other special material cartridges but was unable to figure out why not with the ghost salts pre-added. You provided a direct and precise answer to that. Thank you so much.
Yeah, it makes sense there could be such things, but there's no preexisting mechanic for it that can be hijacked to do it.
You can buy weapons and ammo made from special materials. There are rules for that. There are rules for applying blanches to weapons and ammo, with exceptions for things they don't work on.
There's no rules for buying anything "pre-blanched".
And thank you to you as well, for providing a great answer. Wish we could get these blanched bullets, but oh well. Thank you for your answer. :)
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Regarding overcoming DR, you do understand how Magic Weapons count as various substances for the purpose of overcoming DR, right? This is explained in DR section of the CRB (back of the book, in the glossary).
For example, a +3 Magic weapon is considered Cold Iron and Silver for overcoming DR.
And this could be Magic Weapon the spell and Bane via the Inquisitor for a combined +3 magic weapon.
So you'll still have trouble at low levels, but at mid-higher levels, you should be able to overcome common DRs just by making your weapons magically enhanced.
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Regarding overcoming DR, you do understand how Magic Weapons count as various substances for the purpose of overcoming DR, right? This is explained in DR section of the CRB (back of the book, in the glossary).
For example, a +3 Magic weapon is considered Cold Iron and Silver for overcoming DR.
And this could be Magic Weapon the spell and Bane via the Inquisitor for a combined +3 magic weapon.
So you'll still have trouble at low levels, but at mid-higher levels, you should be able to overcome common DRs just by making your weapons magically enhanced.
Yes, but a +3 weapon is 18000 gold. That is a lot for just silver and cold iron when you can buy the cartridges for way cheaper.
Inquisitor stuff works awesome, but this is a gunslinger thing I am looking for. Inquisitors are awesome though.
But the question has already been answered already. The prices for special material cartridges that you can buy has been provided.
But we can continue repeating the same thing over and over and over again.
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@Vash: Your OP mentions Inquisitor, not gunslinger, which is why I mentioned it. Yeah, cheaper to buy special rounds than a +3 weapon.
EDIT: If you do know what you are going to face, a +1 magic weapon with Bane only costs as much as a +2 weapon. And you can buy ammo this way. 8,000 for 50x +1 Bane Bullets, which is 160gp per bullet. Still very expensive, but if you have issues with a particular type of opponent, that route might be better anyway, since Bane adds to damage as well.
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@Vash: Your OP mentions Inquisitor, not gunslinger, which is why I mentioned it. Yeah, cheaper to buy special rounds than a +3 weapon.
EDIT: If you do know what you are going to face, a +1 magic weapon with Bane only costs as much as a +2 weapon. And you can buy ammo this way. 8,000 for 50x +1 Bane Bullets, which is 160gp per bullet. Still very expensive, but if you have issues with a particular type of opponent, that route might be better anyway, since Bane adds to damage as well.
The question was about alchemical cartridges, that almost always is in reference to gunslingers. The inquisitor I mentioned was a different character of mine that was also ranged and I mentioned that he loved (as in past tense) using blanches. I can not use blanches on alchemical cartridges though. So that is why I was asking about the construction cost of alchemical cartridges and if they were PFS legal.
Bane is an awesome ability, but I am looking to be prepared for anything so I want a supply of ammo that my gunslinger can use to be ready for anything. Bane is awesome for doing extra damage but that is all. It does not overcome DR of anything except magic. The fact that the gun will be at least +1 solves that without dumping more and more gold into the weapon when for cheaper I can use cartridges that have special materials and when fired out of the magic gun are considered magical. My level 12 inquisitor loves his bane ability because he carries an efficient quiver full of ghost salted arrows, adamantine blanched arrows, silver blanched arrows, and cold iron blanched arrows to shoot from his magical adjustable compound longbow. I love hitting his judgments and his bane on anything he runs into. I get so many bonuses and stuff it is hard to keep track, and plus all his spells and buffs that he casts on himself and the party before the start is just epic. Bane is without a doubt awesome as a class ability, but I would never pay to have it put on a weapon unless I knew I would almost always fight that type of creature, because it is a hugely specific investment.
But here was what I was asking for and the important thing since we are talking about using alchemical cartridges for guns:
Black Powder (dose) 10gp /Black Powder (keg) 1000gp
Regular Bullet 1gp
Regular Paper Cartridge 12gp
Cold Iron Paper Cartridge 24gp
Adamantine Paper Cartridge 72gp
Alchemical Silver Cartridge 14gp
So here is what I plan on doing for my gunslinger. He has a good supply of regular cartridges, but will likely spend 240 gp to get 10 cold iron cartridges, 720 gp to get 10 adamantine cartridges, 140 gp to get 10 alchemical silver cartridges, and then buy 10 bullets, some ghost salts, blanch them, and use them with some black powder to just load normally in case of ghosts. that is just over 1000 gp to cover myself for any situation. Plus, my gun will be enchanted by this point so that covers the magic DR.
Thank you to everyone who commented and gave some advice. At this point I have all the answers I need but if you all would like to keep commenting on random stuff, feel free. And just to make things a little more interesting, Vash is a GM baby character. He is currently level 4 but will not likely be played until he is level 6. That is to say he will not see play until he is a level 5 gunslinger as he is already a level 3 gunslinger with 1 level of warpriest. His deity is Shelyn and has the good and air blessings, so he can shoot outside his normal range increments without penalties and also can make it good aligned as well. Also he can cast abundant ammunition twice per day as well as have mending if that is needed and he is out of grit on a misfire. But anyway, again thank you to all the helpful people out there. I am sure more people will post here and I hope they thoroughly enjoy themselves. Hope you all have a great day and happy gaming to you all.
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Bane is an awesome ability, but I am looking to be prepared for anything so I want a supply of ammo that my gunslinger can use to be ready for anything. Bane is awesome for doing extra damage but that is all. It does not overcome DR of anything except magic.
The question was regarding overcoming DR types with Alchemical Cartriges. And, as mentioned, a +3 weapon (or a +1 weapon improved by Bane against their targeted foe) will overcome DR/silver and DR/Cold Iron.
I was adding to the discussion by pointing out yet another way you can bypass DR with your alchemical catriges (by making them magic weapons). Not sure why you resent this so much, as it was definitely on topic.
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But here was what I was asking for and the important thing since we are talking about using alchemical cartridges for guns:
Black Powder (dose) 10gp /Black Powder (keg) 1000gp
Regular Bullet 1gp
Regular Paper Cartridge 12gp
Cold Iron Paper Cartridge 24gp
Adamantine Paper Cartridge 72gp
Alchemical Silver Cartridge 14gp
So here is what I plan on doing for my gunslinger. He has a good supply of regular cartridges, but will likely spend 240 gp to get 10 cold iron cartridges, 720 gp to get 10 adamantine cartridges, 140 gp to get 10 alchemical silver cartridges, and then buy 10 bullets, some ghost salts, blanch them, and use them with some black powder to just load normally in case of ghosts. that is just over 1000 gp to cover myself for any situation.
Unless you want to spend more, that is =).
I just use the feat Cluster Shot. That pretty much takes care of everything. Save that +3 for Distance and Reliable.
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Bane is an awesome ability, but I am looking to be prepared for anything so I want a supply of ammo that my gunslinger can use to be ready for anything. Bane is awesome for doing extra damage but that is all. It does not overcome DR of anything except magic.The question was regarding overcoming DR types with Alchemical Cartriges. And, as mentioned, a +3 weapon (or a +1 weapon improved by Bane against their targeted foe) will overcome DR/silver and DR/Cold Iron.
I was adding to the discussion by pointing out yet another way you can bypass DR with your alchemical catriges (by making them magic weapons). Not sure why you resent this so much, as it was definitely on topic.
Let us look at Bane. It makes it additional +2 and does a +2d6 extra damage. While that is awesome as an ability for inquisitors that can change the type of bane on it, for non-inquisitors it is less helpful. You are totally right and valid though. A +3 bonus would indeed overcome some DR and Bane can help you get that. But it is more efficient for non-inquisitors to use other materials for their weapons. Thank you, you are an awesome person, and I am not trying to be passive aggressive or anything, I am just trying to point out that while you have a point it has drifted away from the original question of how much these special material cartridges are and if they are allowed.
But here was what I was asking for and the important thing since we are talking about using alchemical cartridges for guns:
Black Powder (dose) 10gp /Black Powder (keg) 1000gp
Regular Bullet 1gp
Regular Paper Cartridge 12gp
Cold Iron Paper Cartridge 24gp
Adamantine Paper Cartridge 72gp
Alchemical Silver Cartridge 14gp
So here is what I plan on doing for my gunslinger. He has a good supply of regular cartridges, but will likely spend 240 gp to get 10 cold iron cartridges, 720 gp to get 10 adamantine cartridges, 140 gp to get 10 alchemical silver cartridges, and then buy 10 bullets, some ghost salts, blanch them, and use them with some black powder to just load normally in case of ghosts. that is just over 1000 gp to cover myself for any situation.Unless you want to spend more, that is =).
I believe those are the exact same prices. Though I think I do get the 10% discount so yeah save about 120 gold which is a nice sum. Thank you very much.
I just use the feat Cluster Shot. That pretty much takes care of everything. Save that +3 for Distance and Reliable.
Thanks, I will for sure have to look at them.
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It's not a 10% discount.
It's 50%.
The prices you listed are twice as expensive as the ones I linked.
I am sorry I only looked at the first half of the list, which was the same. I should have looked at the bottom half that is also the same, but also has the 50% off prices. My mistake and thank you for pointing it out to me.