Things that have no rules, but should


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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While all this is electrifyingly interesting, perhaps we should examine the potential of other rule changes. While I enjoy the high energy level, we cannot stay in this exited state for long, and if we start thinking in more of a ground state, we may shed some light on something else intriguing.


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I hate you guys....


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Lets not generate hate folks.


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Hate is only appropriate here insofar as it offers impedance to the current flux of electrical puns. I must say, the idea has potential, but it might meet resistance.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Hate is only appropriate here insofar as it offers impedance to the current flux of electrical puns. I must say, the idea has potential, but it might meet resistance.

Which would generate quite a battery of complaints, I imagine.


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Ohm...watt's the topic again?


Things that have no rules (but perhaps should)

1. Throwing objects for distance (not attacking) is a gray area in the rules. Throwing a baseball, for example.
2. Lifting (besides checking up encumbrance, lifting and sustaining weight of a collapsing wall/fallen table/etc. until your allies get to safety is a classic trope)--also throwing lifted objects.
3. Magical investigation: tracking down auras and identifying magic signatures
4. Dynamic ability score increase through training instead of level increase (although limited by diminishing returns or a hard cap)
5. Fatigue from combat (outlasting an enemy by dodging their attacks, could be a valid tactic for duels and tanking--assuming the enemy doesn't attack your allies instead)
6. Climbing and attacking giant creatures as terrain (perhaps ignoring penalties to called shots)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Arrius wrote:

Things that have no rules (but perhaps should)

1. Throwing objects for distance (not attacking) is a gray area in the rules. Throwing a baseball, for example.
2. Lifting (besides checking up encumbrance, lifting and sustaining weight of a collapsing wall/fallen table/etc. until your allies get to safety is a classic trope)--also throwing lifted objects.
3. Magical investigation: tracking down auras and identifying magic signatures
4. Dynamic ability score increase through training instead of level increase (although limited by diminishing returns or a hard cap)
5. Fatigue from combat (outlasting an enemy by dodging their attacks, could be a valid tactic for duels and tanking--assuming the enemy doesn't attack your allies instead)
6. Climbing and attacking giant creatures as terrain (perhaps ignoring penalties to called shots)

1. I thought there was rules for this but not really apparently, outside of the Hurling Rage Powers.

2. Not sure how they would handle this, while doors and gates already have weights listed, walls would be on a case per case basis.
5. I'd be against another limiter for combat, especially for Martials, we already have the abstraction of HP and class resources.
6. YUS


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Burrow still lacks rules. Earth Glide has rules that appear to differentiate it from Burrow, but Burrow is never actually defined in Pathfinder outside of the burrow spell, which also calls out differences from standard Burrow rules.

I have a character in PFS where I have to ask the GM at the start of every scenario what their interpretation of these non-existent rules are so I know whether I can actually use part of a feat I have on it. I know a number of GMs are happy that this character has hit retirement levels so I don't have to bring it up as often.


Are there haggling rules?


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Are there haggling rules?

Not that I know of, but I'd base such on skills like Diplomacy (possibly Bluff or Intimidate depending on your aproach) and Profession (merchant).


Khudzlin wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Are there haggling rules?
Not that I know of, but I'd base such on skills like Diplomacy (possibly Bluff or Intimidate depending on your aproach) and Profession (merchant).

Appraise also seems like a skill that could factor into it.


Arrius wrote:
3. Magical investigation: tracking down auras and identifying magic signatures

[immediately starts homebrewing rules for this]


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Are there haggling rules?

Bartering is in Ultimate Campaign.


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Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Arrius wrote:

Things that have no rules (but perhaps should)

2. Lifting (besides checking up encumbrance, lifting and sustaining weight of a collapsing wall/fallen table/etc. until your allies get to safety is a classic trope)--also throwing lifted objects.

There's actually an example of lifting a fallen roof beam in the Giantslayer AP, and as I recall, the way they did it was a strength check of some sort.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Are there haggling rules?
Bartering is in Ultimate Campaign.

I don't have it so I never bothered to check it out. I'm looking it up now. Seems like there is a lot to it. Either way, that's a rule for something I didn't know existed and that's what this thread is about.

Grand Lodge

Arrius wrote:
6. Climbing and attacking giant creatures as terrain (perhaps ignoring penalties to called shots)

If only the rules had a 'Shadow Of The Colossus' section. I'd be min/maxing that day 1.


Arrius wrote:
Things that have no rules (but perhaps should) II

7. Using shields to block (not avoid) damage such as dragon-breath, area of effect spells, and provide cover against general projectiles

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Arrius wrote:
Arrius wrote:
Things that have no rules (but perhaps should) II
7. Using shields to block (not avoid) damage such as dragon-breath, area of effect spells, and provide cover against general projectiles

Um, in this situation what is the difference between "block" and "avoid"?

We do have the Missile Shield and Ray Shield feats for projectiles, and I think the area affect one is covered by an archetype.

EDIT: Tower Shield Specialist for Fighters helps with area effects.


Well, block as in you take the effect head-on and absorb the blow.
In this case, a shield-user can put up the shield and absorb the damage of a dragon's fire breath attack.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

... isn't that the same as avoiding?


Maybe he wants the shield to take the damage. I think there is a feat that lets you negate a crit at the expense of your shield but I could be wrong.


It doesn't have to be.

Example above: Red dragon attacks village. Knight rides up to fight it. Dragon breathes fire on the knight, dealing 35 fire damage.
The GM normally calls for a Reflex save to half damage--but what if the player of the knight says "I block the dragon-fire with my shield." ?
It's not really a Reflex save (since he's not moving out of the way), and the shield is likely to be destroyed or at least harmed (count damage vs. hardness and hit points). There are no special rules for blocking damage, but there probably should be.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Okay so negating instead of dodging, got it.


well the reflex in that case would be getting your shield up in time before you got burned. I think I see what your saying. I feel like there was optional rules for something like that in 3-3.5. I think it tends to add more trouble then its worth. Plus losing +5 shields to massive blows suck.


I'd like rules that would allow you to run an archery contest where skill is more important than d20 variance in how close you get to a bullseye.


Matthew Downie wrote:
I'd like rules that would allow you to run an archery contest where skill is more important than d20 variance in how close you get to a bullseye.

Generally that's represented mechanically by BAB....


Quadratic, Mythological/Blatantly Superheroic Martials.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
I'd like rules that would allow you to run an archery contest where skill is more important than d20 variance in how close you get to a bullseye.
Generally that's represented mechanically by BAB....

I feel like it would be more interesting to model something like an archery contest with things subtler than "what's your to-hit modifier using a bow" since that basically comes down to BAB and feats.

I mean, someone who has devoted their life to the bow should probably have much better than even odds than "fairly dexterous fighter at the same class level" in an archery contest. But if A's to-hit modifier is 2 more than B's, A only wins 60% of the time.

Silver Crusade

There is an archery contest in the Ruby Phoenix Tournament module. It's for level 11 PCs. The way it is done there is simply by AC, central and distant targets having higher AC.

The level means that someone like a Ranger finds it easy, the rest of the party might not bother trying. The bonuses seem to matter more than the d20 by that stage.


Stopping drowning
What being dead actually does.


Quote:
Plus losing +5 shields to massive blows suck.

True, but it's damage you won't take, and an option.

And besides, enchantments to shields adds to hardness. I'd like to see dragon-breath melt an adamantine shield.

Things that have no rules (but perhaps should) III

8. Rules for capturing and threatening attacks/hostages (and easier called shot) *
9. Rules for general save-or-suck/die assassinations without specific class features (threatening a man with a knife without being a rogue should be more threatening than 1d4 + Str) *
10. Rules for drop-attacks or landing on characters (most GMs let fall damage apply evenly or to one over the other)
11. Mental penalties to ability scores from aging (or at least a penalty to Perception?)
12. Blocking natural attacks with items (using a stick or shield to prevent a bite attack or pin a tail or wing to the ground)**
13. Armor-piercing rules for bludgeons or bludgeon-piercing damage
14. Sensing or assessing a target's general power/magical skill (non-alignment-based aura)
15. Back-breaking or general super-maneuver to break creatures as objects, causing disability as per called shot
Edit: 16: Trip maneuver versus flying enemies drops them

* Having a prepared attack this way be a critical threat makes the called shot rules more engaging and the two rules quite synergistic. Especially if this requires (non-magic) concentration or a Reflex save.
Scene: Villain grabs civilian and threatens them with a knife. Spent full-round action setting up the capture (successful attack roll vs. AC, holds damage and converts it into a readied attack). Hero arrives and villain is all monologue. Hero's ally moves behind villain and attacks--villain fails Reflex and loses action, and hostage escapes.
If the villain kept action, deals critical neck attack (critical hit + 1d6 bleed and must make Fortitude save vs. crushed windpipe as per Called Shot).
** Being a combat maneuver works fine--CMB or attack roll vs. CMD disables one attack method--target has to spend a Standard action (or move action with penalty) to free self.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Arrius wrote:

8. Rules for capturing and threatening attacks/hostages (and easier called shot) *

10. Rules for drop-attacks or landing on characters (most GMs let fall damage apply evenly or to one over the other)
12. Blocking natural attacks with items (using a stick or shield to prevent a bite attack or pin a tail or wing to the ground)**
13. Armor-piercing rules for bludgeons or bludgeon-piercing damage
14. Sensing or assessing a target's general power/magical skill (non-alignment-based aura)
15. Back-breaking or general super-maneuver to break creatures as objects, causing disability as per called shot

8) I wouldn't mind more of these, right now only Vigilantes and Mythic characters can do these.

10) Branch Pounce!
12) Barbed Vest is one, might be others.
13)?
14) Like picking up what class abilities they have or their levels?
15) Oooooo...


Rysky wrote:
Arrius wrote:

8. Rules for capturing and threatening attacks/hostages (and easier called shot) *

10. Rules for drop-attacks or landing on characters (most GMs let fall damage apply evenly or to one over the other)
12. Blocking natural attacks with items (using a stick or shield to prevent a bite attack or pin a tail or wing to the ground)**
13. Armor-piercing rules for bludgeons or bludgeon-piercing damage
14. Sensing or assessing a target's general power/magical skill (non-alignment-based aura)
15. Back-breaking or general super-maneuver to break creatures as objects, causing disability as per called shot

10) Branch Pounce!

12) Barbed Vest is one, might be others.
13)?
14) Like picking up what class abilities they have or their levels?

10. I was thinking more of a universal ability, but a feat works.

12. A combat maneuver to block a bite or bind a wing would do, I think.
13. Meaning maces and picks ignore armor or give a bonus to AC versus armored opponents (max bonus cannot exceed armor bonus).
14. Levels, highest-level spell slot, and general ability score range. Mostly in relation to self.


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Things that have no rules (but perhaps should) IV
17. Looting non-humanoid enemies and gaining useful body parts (like current dragon-hide rules--petrifying medusa head, milk poison from snakes, bottled gorgon's breath, etc.)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Arrius wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Arrius wrote:

8. Rules for capturing and threatening attacks/hostages (and easier called shot) *

10. Rules for drop-attacks or landing on characters (most GMs let fall damage apply evenly or to one over the other)
12. Blocking natural attacks with items (using a stick or shield to prevent a bite attack or pin a tail or wing to the ground)**
13. Armor-piercing rules for bludgeons or bludgeon-piercing damage
14. Sensing or assessing a target's general power/magical skill (non-alignment-based aura)
15. Back-breaking or general super-maneuver to break creatures as objects, causing disability as per called shot

10) Branch Pounce!

12) Barbed Vest is one, might be others.
13)?
14) Like picking up what class abilities they have or their levels?

10. I was thinking more of a universal ability, but a feat works.

12. A combat maneuver to block a bite or bind a wing would do, I think.
13. Meaning maces and picks ignore armor or give a bonus to AC versus armored opponents (max bonus cannot exceed armor bonus).
14. Levels, highest-level spell slot, and general ability score range. Mostly in relation to self.

13) Ah! I thought they already had an ability like this but I was wrong, a "Puncturing" quality would be nice.

14) Hmmm...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Arrius wrote:

Things that have no rules (but perhaps should) IV

17. Looting non-humanoid enemies and gaining useful body parts (like current dragon-hide rules--petrifying medusa head, milk poison from snakes, bottled gorgon's breath, etc.)

As much as I love a Harvesting system I can see why it isn't more widespread. You attribute value to the various monster pieces then that means those pieces take up wealth, which means less other types of loot that monster has, which means you're screwed if you can't harvest it or mess up harvesting it.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
I'd like rules that would allow you to run an archery contest where skill is more important than d20 variance in how close you get to a bullseye.
Generally that's represented mechanically by BAB....

I feel like it would be more interesting to model something like an archery contest with things subtler than "what's your to-hit modifier using a bow" since that basically comes down to BAB and feats.

I mean, someone who has devoted their life to the bow should probably have much better than even odds than "fairly dexterous fighter at the same class level" in an archery contest. But if A's to-hit modifier is 2 more than B's, A only wins 60% of the time.

The usual solution to favor higher bonuses over rolls is making multiple rolls. Real-life archery contests involve shooting 60 arrows. A best of 3 pushes A's winning chances up to 64.8%; a best of 5 pushes them up to 73.3%; longer series push them up even more.


Rysky wrote:
Arrius wrote:

Things that have no rules (but perhaps should) IV

17. Looting non-humanoid enemies and gaining useful body parts (like current dragon-hide rules--petrifying medusa head, milk poison from snakes, bottled gorgon's breath, etc.)
As much as I love a Harvesting system I can see why it isn't more widespread. You attribute value to the various monster pieces then that means those pieces take up wealth, which means less other types of loot that monster has, which means you're screwed if you can't harvest it or mess up harvesting it.

I would be more concerned about using intelligent creature's body parts as weapons and armour, but that already is in the rules with dragonhide, so...

Also, I thought you could already gather poison from dead creatures.


meh, i think using intelligent creatures as weapons and armor is kind of taken for granted in the pathfinder-verse, what with intelligent items and all


Only violet fungi can be harvested as an exception, and dragon-hide is the other example. A comprehensive harvesting system would reasonably allow 'tarraque-hide' armor with free armor spikes and resistances.
Of course, the problem with pricing is something James Jacobs noticed and commented on.

Quote:
The reason we don't have rules like this hardcoded into the game is because the game's economy doesn't allow for it. Poison has a real GP value, and if you allow PCs to harvest poison, you technically need to adjust treasure values in the campaign to allow for this new source of income. And that can get weird when you have some monsters that have really expensive poison that already have or NEED a lot of treasure.

So, throw it under '99 reasons to divorce wealth from player level'. :P

Things that have no rules (but perhaps should) V
18. Affecting intelligent undead with mind-affecting spells.
19. Focusing attacks instead of making many (instead of using iterative attacks, deal increased damage on a successful hit by spending attack actions, such as dealing +2d6 damage by spending an iterative).
20. Spending downtime on training to increase current hit points (cannot exceed normal maximum).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Arrius wrote:

Things that have no rules (but perhaps should) V

18. Affecting intelligent undead with mind-affecting spells.
19. Focusing attacks instead of making many (instead of using iterative attacks, deal increased damage on a successful hit by spending attack actions, such as dealing +2d6 damage by spending an iterative).
20. Spending downtime on training to increase current hit points (cannot exceed normal maximum).

18. You can do that with feats and certain archetypes.

19. Vital Strike?
20. You can already use downtime to retrain a HD.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Arrius wrote:

Things that have no rules (but perhaps should) V

18. Affecting intelligent undead with mind-affecting spells.
19. Focusing attacks instead of making many (instead of using iterative attacks, deal increased damage on a successful hit by spending attack actions, such as dealing +2d6 damage by spending an iterative).
20. Spending downtime on training to increase current hit points (cannot exceed normal maximum).

18. You can do that with feats and certain archetypes.

19. Vital Strike?
20. You can already use downtime to retrain a HD.

Expanding those answers:

18. Will of the Dead (psychic), Psychic Inception (mesmerist), Threnodic Spell (metamagic feat)

19. Pummeling Style, as well.

Silver Crusade

Serisan wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Arrius wrote:

Things that have no rules (but perhaps should) V

18. Affecting intelligent undead with mind-affecting spells.
19. Focusing attacks instead of making many (instead of using iterative attacks, deal increased damage on a successful hit by spending attack actions, such as dealing +2d6 damage by spending an iterative).
20. Spending downtime on training to increase current hit points (cannot exceed normal maximum).

18. You can do that with feats and certain archetypes.

19. Vital Strike?
20. You can already use downtime to retrain a HD.

Expanding those answers:

18. Will of the Dead (psychic), Psychic Inception (mesmerist), Threnodic Spell (metamagic feat)

I think the point is less "this thing can be done with specific feats" and is more that "since intelligent undead are not mindless, mind-affecting effects should work on them by default and I want a rule for that."


It's been a while.
Things that have no rules (but perhaps should) VI

Martials getting area of effect abilities. An archer's volley targeting an area and enemies rolling saving throws, or a swing from a greatsword that deals damage on a failed save.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Arrius wrote:

It's been a while.

Things that have no rules (but perhaps should) VI

Martials getting area of effect abilities. An archer's volley targeting an area and enemies rolling saving throws, or a swing from a greatsword that deals damage on a failed save.

Cleave?


But cleave requires an attack roll.
Think of if Whirlwind Attack forced adjacent enemies to roll Reflex or take half damage.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Arrius wrote:

But cleave requires an attack roll.

Think of if Whirlwind Attack forced adjacent enemies to roll Reflex or take half damage.

I rather stick with normal Cleave (and Whirlwind if for some reason I ever took it) since as a Martial I have really good Attack bonus so I'm probably going to hit, and deal full damage. Whereas with a Reflex save you can lower the damage or outright negate it with Evasion.


That's true, but direct attacks are useless against swarms and difficult to use against invisible characters (50% concealment). Area of effect attacks are more reliable (though you can't critically hit with them).
It's also a potentially cool archer ability--imagine releasing an arrow that deals damage in a line (damaging every enemy or object in the area).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

*nods*

Though I think invisible creatures would still get the 50% concealmeant (I would have to read up some more) and it wouldn't help against swarms since most are immune to weapon damage, AoE weapon damage wouldn't really help there.

Swarm wrote:
A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage.

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