Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse


Advice

Sovereign Court

Is Agile Maneuvers required to add the Dex bonus to CMB even if the wielder has Weapon Finesse?

In other words, if you have Weapon Finesse, do you add your Dex bonus to CMB attempts? (using unarmed, gauntlet or a light weapon)

Thanks!

Sovereign Court

(if you *can* add dex bonus via Weapon Finesse to CMB attempts, then would you also add the dex again from Agile Maneuvers?)

Scarab Sages

Weapon finesse applies on weapon based maneuvers, which are normally disarm trio and sunder. Any other maneuver- dirty trick, grapple, bull rush, overrun, etc, requires agile manuevers.

Scarab Sages

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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
(if you *can* add dex bonus via Weapon Finesse to CMB attempts, then would you also add the dex again from Agile Maneuvers?)

No, you can never add an untyped bonus equal to an ability modifier twice.


If you are using a maneuver that involves the use of a weapon (specifically disarm, sunder, trip under normal circumstances), have weapon finesse, and are using a weapon compatible with weapon finesse, you do not need to take agile maneuvers.

This is addressed in this FAQ.

Arguably if you can describe other combat maneuvers as being accomplished with your weapon (such as a steal attempt generated by Shielded Gauntlet Attack, or select dirty tricks) you could use weapon finesse with those as well.

Sovereign Court

Yes, I play a halfling swashbuckler mouser. I have weapon finesse and fight with a rapier. At 3rd he got 'quick steal' which lets you use a steal maneuver after a successful hit:

Quote:
Quick Steal (Ex): At 3rd level, as a swift action the mouser can spend 1 panache point when she hits a for larger than her size with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon to attempt a steal combat maneuver check against the creature she hit. Using this deed does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This deed replaces menacing swordplay.

I'm assuming the steal attempt is with the rapier (like swashbucklers do when they lift necklaces from ladies in movies).

I'm also intending to use the blade and tankard fighting technique down the road, i.e. splashing beer in people's face to blind them i.e. dirty trick. For this one it gets a bit trickier (see below), as the 'tossing' of liquid would be ranged touch attack I believe (which is again dex based).

Quote:

Optional Replacement: A chaotic good fighter or swashbuckler who worships such a god can replace proficiency with shields or bucklers with the following initial benefit.

Initial Benefit(s): You can wield a tankard (or mug) as a weapon, treating it in all ways as a light mace appropriate for your size. If you engage in two-weapon fighting with a rapier or light weapon in one hand and a tankard in the other, you can drink a potion or other liquid from the tankard or attempt to toss liquid from the tankard as a dirty trick combat maneuver (such as to blind a foe) in place of attacking with it. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for attempting a dirty trick maneuver with a tankard.

Thanks for the answers above. So far it seems pretty clear you don't add Dex twice even if you have Agile Maneuvers, but I wouldn't mind additional clarifications if some of you have come across the two above cases in the past. Thanks!

Sovereign Court

Reading the above again, I don't think I need Agile Maneuvers to make that mouser work... I'm now wondering if Two-Weapon Grace (Villain Codex) is required or if I can just skip it for some other feat (i.e. holding a mug in your left hand subbing for buckler proficiency probably not a show stopper for fencing grace; the wording is a little vague - I'm wondering if they refer to attacking with a weapon or just holding a weapon)

Edit: I'm not planning to do any real damage with the offhand mug, just drink from it, or use dirty trick... so the 1/2 dex damage in the offhand is just useless in my case.

Dark Archive

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
(if you *can* add dex bonus via Weapon Finesse to CMB attempts, then would you also add the dex again from Agile Maneuvers?)

No, you cannot. Dexterity is considered to be a type of bonus, and bonuses of the same type do not stack.

Dark Archive

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Yes, I play a halfling swashbuckler mouser. I have weapon finesse and fight with a rapier. At 3rd he got 'quick steal' which lets you use a steal maneuver after a successful hit:

Quote:
Quick Steal (Ex): At 3rd level, as a swift action the mouser can spend 1 panache point when she hits a for larger than her size with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon to attempt a steal combat maneuver check against the creature she hit. Using this deed does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This deed replaces menacing swordplay.

I'm assuming the steal attempt is with the rapier (like swashbucklers do when they lift necklaces from ladies in movies).

I would certainly allow this in my game, but RAW i'm not entirely certain.

Dark Archive

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Reading the above again, I don't think I need Agile Maneuvers to make that mouser work... I'm now wondering if Two-Weapon Grace (Villain Codex) is required or if I can just skip it for some other feat (i.e. holding a mug in your left hand subbing for buckler proficiency probably not a show stopper for fencing grace; the wording is a little vague - I'm wondering if they refer to attacking with a weapon or just holding a weapon)

Edit: I'm not planning to do any real damage with the offhand mug, just drink from it, or use dirty trick... so the 1/2 dex damage in the offhand is just useless in my case.

From Fencing Grace:

"You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or anytime another hand is otherwise occupied."

Holding a tankard in your other hand counts as being "otherwise occupied" so no I don't think it would work with Fencing Grace.

Sovereign Court

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Yes. I'll have to remove weapon specialization rapier, take TWF at 4th and then take TWgrace at 5th.

Screw damage. I want to steal people's necklaces then throw beer in their faces.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Yes. I'll have to remove weapon specialization rapier, take TWF at 4th and then take TWgrace at 5th.

Screw damage. I want to steal people's necklaces then throw beer in their faces.

Gotta respect a man with a vision.

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