Reach or no reach?


Advice


Background: My group is rerolling our RotR characters to restart the campaign in the Hook Mountain part of the story. This was our first attempted campaign, all first timers. Our characters were broken and we screwed a lot of things up, so we're redoing it the right way with 20 points buys. I'm rebuilding a giant-hunting dwarf fighter and trying to determine my main weapon for weapon focus/specialization etc.

Earthbreaker or a Dwarven Longhammer?

The latter seems like the better option with reach, but my GM plays enemies smart and will continuously 5' step me into corners/walls/etc to negate a reach weapon, and I'm the only true front-liner, so it happens pretty often.

If I take a longhammer is there a good way to keep decent adjacent threat, outside of dropping and drawing a backup weapon? Thinking about a boulder helmet, but that takes a useful item slot.

Any advice?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Does the boulder helmet say it uses up a magical item slot? Cause if it doesn't, you can still use headband/hat items.

In any case, if you don't want to reduce action economy by having to draw out a non-reach weapon, then wield a non-reach weapon that doesn't have to be drawn out. You've already mentioned the boulder helmet, but there are plenty of others: armor spikes, cestus, spiked gauntlet, etc. These don't even require you to drop or otherwise let go of your polearm.

Alternatively, there are several archetypes, feats, and abilities out there that will help you with this problem.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Spiked gauntlets, a dip into monk or just taking IUS as a bonus feat. It won't be as awesome, but you'll have options. Armor spikes aren't a bad idea as well.


I didn't think about armor spikes. I always remember the grapple damage, but forgot you could just use them to throw an elbow/shoulder/knee etc as an attack.


Ravingdork wrote:

Does the boulder helmet say it uses up a magical item slot? Cause if it doesn't, you can still use headband/hat items.

In any case, if you don't want to reduce action economy by having to draw out a non-reach weapon, then wield a non-reach weapon that doesn't have to be drawn out. You've already mentioned the boulder helmet, but there are plenty of others: armor spikes, cestus, spiked gauntlet, etc. These don't even require you to drop or otherwise let go of your polearm.

Alternatively, there are several archetypes, feats, and abilities out there that will help you with this problem.

Unfortunately, it does take a slot:

"A dwarven boulder helmet adds 20% to the wearer's arcane spell failure chance. It occupies the head slot and is made of metal, not stone, meaning that it can be crafted from unusual materials as a metal weapon."


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I had a dwarven character who used a Dorn Dergar (Dwarven Chain-flail) that can be reach or not (move action to change between the two). Since we never got beyond sixth level, losing the full-attack to switch was rarely an issue.


You could look at pushing assault and the Weapon mastery Difficult Swings as way to stop them from closing in for free.

The Exchange

Have you considered using the EarthBreaker as your primary weapon, but just carrying a reach weapon to take any free AoO's until you get up in their grill. That way if they go first you get your free attacks then drop the polearm, draw+hit. if you're going first you can drop the polearm draw as you move and hit.


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Oh, your gm seems to have some understanding of distance control. As the resident advocate for distanc control, allow me to provide advice. These strategies do not stop your GM, but does make it pricy to be 'smart':

Basic distance control

While I can't speak about levels 1-5 (where you might suffer).... you will be fine after level 6.

Why? Lunge.

Lunge gives you an extra 5' reach during your turn. This does not directly apply to reach based AoOs... but it makes positioning much easier.

Normally, when you use a reach weapon and attack first, you lose your chance at AoOs. The enemy ends up close enough to 5' step into you, avoiding AoOs, getting their full attack, and forcing you to 5' step back to attack them.

But with lunge, you can attack first, but most enemies have to move 10' to get into attack range, and almost everything has to move 10' to try to force you back. That means they aren't safe anymore- you get an AoO, and they don't get to full attack. So while they can be 'smart'.... that is only until you smash their brain in.

And while this does discourage enemies from attacking you... you are not a turtled monk. You are a circle of pain 25' across that blocks the way to the squishies party members behind you. Also, you can full attack as a distance... that a dwarf almost has to spend a move action to get to (10' reach +5' step +5' from lunge= full attack anything 20' away)

Note that this doesn't entirely work on giants (and this is RotRL, so there will be many).... but they shouldn't be a concern for the backstep problem, because:
1. They should get into attack range long before they would forceyou back. They could take a 5' step to engage you like you were both medium characters with regular reach, or they could waste their time move 10' just to eat a hammer to the face and all just to force you back a mere 5'? Why shouldn't they just do a bullrush instead? That distance control wouldn't be 'smart', and you should call your GM out if he tries it.
2. I am fairly sure you could still attack their rear squares that are still in your reach. Not too sure about that. So giants might have never had the ability to force you back...

Advanced distance control

Pushing assault is a feat that allows you to trade in power attack damage in return for forcing the enemy back 5'. This can reset your distance (allowing for new AoOs), and allow you to get in the same range as seen with lunge. Lunge helps it further by allowing you to push back with the first attack, and then continue to full attack with increased reach.

You are still pushed back a bit, but again- you can force them to have their 'smart' brains paint the floor through AoOs. This can also be grabbed at an earlier level than lunge, and it is easy to get it by level 2 (assuming power attack and combat reflexes at level 1)

The only flaw is that this only works on creatures your size and smaller. Again- RotRL and giants. Still, useful against almost everything else.

Distance Control Shenanigans

There is a obvious solution to the size problem with pushign assault, but I would normally not advise it. Enlarge person allows you to go large... but with a reach weapon, it expands the gap where you can't use your big shiny, well enhanced reach weapon. This is an even worse version of your current GM problem- you have to waste an entire move action to get into the right range to use that weapon. Enlarged reach is more for area control with a much wider circle of pain than distance control or basic 'I am a melee class that uses full attacks' action.

There is a build that could still do distance control stuff. You use corngon smash to intimidate the opponent, then use hurtful to get a swift action attack on the intimidated enemy, and that extra hit is a pushing assault that pushes them back 5'. That gives you 15' breathing room. You still have to move back 10' though...

You might also be able to use pushing assault on the cornugon smash hit... but I am vague on how well those mix (since they both modify power attacks). If you can, then you get 20' breathing room.

EDIT: Final Advice

If your GM allows for crafting, and you have access to the right books... get a fortuitous weapon. This +1 property allows you, 1/round, to get in a second AoO for the same action, but it hits at BAB-5. This basically gives you a mini full attack in an AoO. This further increases the price of being 'smart'. Lets see who dares to be the first with a 'bright idea'.

Cornugon smash and hurtful are also just generally good melee character feats, since hey- debuff and an extra attack! Lets see who is 'smart' enough to get within a mile of you.

Generally, anything that increases your damage and number of attacks makes being 'smart' far more costs. Leverage that.

The Exchange

lemeres wrote:
2. I am fairly sure you could still attack their rear squares that are still in your reach. Not too sure about that. So giants might have never had the ability to force you back...

Unfortunately by RAW that is not correct.

Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

In this case it says you can attack a creature 10' away, which the Giant/large Creature would qualify as being. However it adds what would be the more specific detail "but not a creature in an adjacent square." Since the creature is in an adjacent square you would not be able to attack it.


Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:
lemeres wrote:
2. I am fairly sure you could still attack their rear squares that are still in your reach. Not too sure about that. So giants might have never had the ability to force you back...

Unfortunately by RAW that is not correct.

Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Fair enough. Still, you should question how 'smart' the giants are for eating an AoO in the first place just to force you back 5', when they could have approached normally and just attacked for free, or used maneuvers to get more distance for the same AoO cost. That is something to get on your GM about.

The medium creatures taking advantage of the gap is logical, since you have the reach advantage over them. But giants have natural reach advantage that puts you on similar ground, so there is less reason to do this. And with lunge, you make it even more costly to try to get in close like that. A giant that loses at the reach game to a smaller creature is embarrassing.


We're restarting at level 8-9 right at the ogre fights in the Black Arrow Fortress, so pushing Giants around is a problem. I like the idea of lunging with a longhammer against them.

Currently looking at a longhammer + armor spikes build with improved bull rush, quick bull rush, and spiked destroyer. If I get cornered, bullrush them back with a spikes hit, finish the full attack with longhammer.

Fighters aren't feat starved, but that's still sinking in 3 for situational combat, though it could come up often.

Side note: looking at good Maneuver archetypes - Lore Warden with a 1 level ranger dip for medium armor/favored enemy, foehammer, or stick with a base fighter?


Also - I've looked heavily into cornugon smash/hurtful, but as a dwarf with negative charisma trying to intimidate larger foes, I don't like my odds. That IS a feat tree I'm taking on a bloodrager, though.

The Exchange

Makknus wrote:
If I get cornered, bullrush them back with a spikes hit, finish the full attack with longhammer.

No-Go on the Bull Rush and finish the full attack action. Bull Rush is one of those Standard Action combat maneuvers (Along with Grapple) that you can not perform as part of a full attack since they are standard actions not attack actions.


Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:
Makknus wrote:
If I get cornered, bullrush them back with a spikes hit, finish the full attack with longhammer.
No-Go on the Bull Rush and finish the full attack action. Bull Rush is one of those Standard Action combat maneuvers (Along with Grapple) that you can not perform as part of a full attack since they are standard actions not attack actions.

Quick bull rush lets you sub a bull rush for your highest BAB attack in a full action


I play a lot of reach weapon users. You should be killing them before they are able to back you up into a corner. Don't sink 3 feats for something you shouldn't need to use. Put those feats into lunge and weapon mastery( Difficult Swings) letting you get full attacks off and an AoO and them not being able to full attack. Now buy Fortuitous on your weapon and take combat reflexes so that when they provoke you get an extra attack off against them.

At lv9 this comes to basically 2 full attacks to their 1 attack. If you can't kill them doing this before you're backed into a corner I think you have other issues than being backed into a corner.


Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:
lemeres wrote:
2. I am fairly sure you could still attack their rear squares that are still in your reach. Not too sure about that. So giants might have never had the ability to force you back...

Unfortunately by RAW that is not correct.

Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

In this case it says you can attack a creature 10' away, which the Giant/large Creature would qualify as being. However it adds what would be the more specific detail "but not a creature in an adjacent square." Since the creature is in an adjacent square you would not be able to attack it.

ah, just thought of something- what if their rear ends are over 10' away, and they are not in adjacent squares?

I am mostly imagining what would happen in a giant vs. enlargeed dwarf fight. In that case it is much more practical to use that and pushing assault in the upcoming ogre fight. Then you could easily do distance shennanigans against them.

If this works, then I would only advise enlarged person in giant fights and the like. Anything smaller would take advantage of your huge doughnut gap.


Chess Pwn wrote:

I play a lot of reach weapon users. You should be killing them before they are able to back you up into a corner. Don't sink 3 feats for something you shouldn't need to use. Put those feats into lunge and weapon mastery( Difficult Swings) letting you get full attacks off and an AoO and them not being able to full attack. Now buy Fortuitous on your weapon and take combat reflexes so that when they provoke you get an extra attack off against them.

At lv9 this comes to basically 2 full attacks to their 1 attack. If you can't kill them doing this before you're backed into a corner I think you have other issues than being backed into a corner.

That sounds solid. My build was going to incorporate reflexes if I went longhammer, anyway.

1.Power Attack
1F. Weapon Focus: Dwarven Longhammer
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Iron Will
4. Barroom Brawler
5-9 were build-dependent, trying to work in Weapon Specialization somewhere, possibly Armed Bravery or Steel Soul.

If it matters, I believe the GM will be utilizing combat stamina. I wanted Focus/Spec to be transferable situationally with Stamina use.


why barroom brawler?

I'd suggest

1.Power Attack
1F. Weapon Focus: Dwarven Longhammer
2. Combat Reflexes
3. steel soul
4. weapon spec
5. Iron will if desired
6. weapon mastery(Difficult Swings)
7. Advanced weapon training (Defensive Weapon Training or Armed Bravery)
8. lunge
9. greater weapon focus
free AWT instead of new group. (Defensive Weapon Training or Armed Bravery)


Chess Pwn wrote:

why barroom brawler?

I'd suggest

1.Power Attack
1F. Weapon Focus: Dwarven Longhammer
2. Combat Reflexes
3. steel soul
4. weapon spec
5. Iron will if desired
6. weapon mastery(Difficult Swings)
7. Advanced weapon training (Defensive Weapon Training or Armed Bravery)
8. lunge
9. greater weapon focus
free AWT instead of new group. (Defensive Weapon Training or Armed Bravery)

I like your setup. I wanted Barroom Brawler for versatility - I'd rather be mostly focused with some backup options than fully optimized. We do a lot of RP and side stuff, so you never know when having vital strike or improved trip for a minute would come in handy.

I do like armed bravery. I could drop iron will and take Brawler at 5. Order doesn't really matter since I'm starting at 8 or 9 though.


I don't see how having one minute of a combat feat is worth it. you don't qualify for improved trip, and vital strike is just slightly more damage on a non-full attack.

I don't see how spending a standard action, on a full-bab class is worth the feat. 1st round is full attack or move and ready an action. If you move and ready then you have at least 2 attacks before the enemy hits you. This to me is way better than moving, "buffing" and only getting 1 off.

Basically I don't know of any combat feat worth flexibly having once per day for a minute. But if you want it go for it. iron will is less needed because of steel soul and the lv9 was just cause I couldn't think of something else to take.


Makknus wrote:
We're restarting at level 8-9 [...]

Then I suggest not playing a non-caster class.

Just go full Cleric, Inquisitor, Warpriest... whatever as long as you get at least a 6th-lvl spell list.


Djelai wrote:
Makknus wrote:
We're restarting at level 8-9 [...]

Then I suggest not playing a non-caster class.

Just go full Cleric, Inquisitor, Warpriest... whatever as long as you get at least a 6th-lvl spell list.

Since we're restarting an old campaign I have to keep the character mostly the same. I could at best argue Barbarian or Ranger, but I'm already playing Ranger in another game and don't want to for this.


Chess Pwn wrote:

I don't see how having one minute of a combat feat is worth it. you don't qualify for improved trip, and vital strike is just slightly more damage on a non-full attack.

I don't see how spending a standard action, on a full-bab class is worth the feat. 1st round is full attack or move and ready an action. If you move and ready then you have at least 2 attacks before the enemy hits you. This to me is way better than moving, "buffing" and only getting 1 off.

Basically I don't know of any combat feat worth flexibly having once per day for a minute. But if you want it go for it. iron will is less needed because of steel soul and the lv9 was just cause I couldn't think of something else to take.

At a later level I can pick up another Advanced Weapon Training that will let me use Barroom Brawler additional times per day = to Weapon Training level. At that point 3 additional times per day. Fair point about trip, but there are so many combat feats out there that could situationally be useful. Imp Bull Rush, Cleave, Step Up, One of the Weapon Mastery feats, Disruptive, Blindfight, Bludgeoner, even stuff like Cornugon Smash if the situation applies. Things that can be hyper useful, but may not be worth taking full time.

We're starting at 9. Current Build is:
1. Power Attack
1. Weapon Focus
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Steel Soul
4. Barroom Brawler
5. Furious Focus
6. Weapon Mastery: Difficult Swings
7. Advanced Weapon Training: Armed Bravery
7. Replacing armor training with AAT: Armor Specialist: Full Plate
8. Lunge
9. Advanced Armor Training: Master Armorer
9: Replacing Weapon Training 2 with AWT: Versatile Training.

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