Two questions that came up last session: Grease spell and samurai resolve


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Question #1
Grease says "Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect."

But we also have:
An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus).

AND

Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item's Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.

What happens if


  • You cast grease on an unattended magic item? Does it get a save?
  • You cast grease on an item that is "worn" but not "wielded or employed" (say a sword on an enemy's back)

----------------------------

Question #2
If a samurai uses Resolve's "unstoppable" after a hit and then takes another hit, can he use resolve again to stay up? Possible answers that I see are:


  • Yes, as long as he has an immediate action available (or somehow can use resolve as a free action)
  • No, because of the wording "He does fall unconscious if he takes additional damage from any source."

I'm leaning toward thinking that "He does fall unconscious if he takes additional damage from any source." is more of a statement of the general case of going negative and doesn't preclude doing something to continue to stay up (say an additional use of resolve or having the diehard feat), but I think it's unclear.

Thanks!


Grease

1. Technically the magic item gets a save even if it doesn't necessarily make sense... like here.
2. Item is attended as it is on the character's person, so it gets the save.

Resolve

Yes looks to be correct.


chaoseffect wrote:

Grease

1. Technically the magic item gets a save even if it doesn't necessarily make sense... like here.
2. Item is attended as it is on the character's person, so it gets the save.

So the specific wording of the grease spell is just color text and we use the default item saving throw rules?

I kind of buy that, but at the same time, that means the entire section on saves under the grease spell A) could have been left out and B) is misleading as is currently written. Which given it's coming from 3.0/3.5 I find very believable.


Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?


Specific trumps general.

Magic item 'always' gets a saving throw - rule specific to magic items - but the sword on the person's back is not in use and so wouldn't - rule specific to Grease

Never read it in that much detail before but that's how I'd rule it now I have. If it meant attended it would say so. c.f. Spark.

"An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus)." Is the 'general rule' the Grease description is the specific rule.


Nah, Grease's wording is general, magic items affected by grease behave normally per the magic item saving throw rules.


No they don't, Grease has a specific rule that changes the general rule for magic items, so magic items no attended would not get a saving throw, besides it makes more sense that way :)


I agree that the general rule is that magic items get a save.
Grease, being the description of a single spell has to be more specific.
I've also noticed that Grease has a Saving Throw of "See Text" and the text of the spell basically amounts to
Saving Throw: None (unattended objects) and Ref Negates (attended objects)

So I vote for no save for an unattended magical objects.

As for question 2.
He can use Resolve as often as needed as long as he can take the required immediate action, which would limit it to once per round normally.


edduardco wrote:
...Grease has a specific rule that changes the general rule for magic items

No, it unequivocally does not. I think you'll find grease doesn't mention magic items at all. It gives a rule about how saving throws work on items in GENERAL, which is overridden by the SPECIFIC rules that magic items are subject to.

By your logic, undead, being creatures, are healed by Cure spells, even though undead have a rule that says they are damaged by Cure spells.


Dallium wrote:
edduardco wrote:
...Grease has a specific rule that changes the general rule for magic items

No, it unequivocally does not. I think you'll find grease doesn't mention magic items at all. It gives a rule about how saving throws work on items in GENERAL, which is overridden by the SPECIFIC rules that magic items are subject to.

By your logic, undead, being creatures, are healed by Cure spells, even though undead have a rule that says they are damaged by Cure spells.

"undead" is more specific than "creature".

"saving throw from grease" is more specific than "saving throw"


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Dallium wrote:
edduardco wrote:
...Grease has a specific rule that changes the general rule for magic items
No, it unequivocally does not. I think you'll find grease doesn't mention magic items at all.

I'm not so sure "unequivocally" is the right word. Grease refers to "material objects" which comprises most magic items. Ergo, one could argue that the specific statement that unattended material objects are affected by the spell without a save over-rides the general case that magic items, whether attended or not, receive a saving throw against magic effects.

Also, Cure spells specifically refer to "living creatures" and so your last assertion is a straw man. And something of a non sequitur.


General Rules:
Non-magical items - do not normally get saving throws.
Magical items - normally get saving throws, attended or not.

Specific Rules:
Non-magical items - owner gets a save if in use.
Magical items - owner gets a save if in use.

I can see the argument that an idle/stowed magic item suddenly not getting a save seems odd, but... magic. Item rules are broad and cover all items in all situations. Grease rules are specific and cover only the items impacted by the spell, and under different - more specific - conditions.


Hmm, might be changing my mind on the magic items. After all it's only on things not in use or wielded and I'm tending to agree on the magic item saving throw being general, now it's been discussed.


"magic item" is more specific than "item."

Look this is how specificity works.

Cure spells heal living creatures. It's right there in the spell.

Dhampir are creatures. They also have a rule that says they take damage, rather than heal, from cure spells. That rule, being specific to Dhampirs, is more specific that the cure spell, which relates only to creatures.

The (imaginary) feat Death Healer gives a cleric who selects it the ability to heal Dhampir with cure spells. The feat, being an exception to the rules about Dhampirs, is more specific than the rules about how Dhampirs normally interact with cure spells.

Items is a huge category that has no categorical rules about saving throws.

Grease lays out rules for how items affected by grease get saving throws.

Magic items are a subcategory of items, that have their own rules for saving throws. These rules, being more specific to magic items that grease's rules about items in general, override the latter.

Saying magic items are affected by grease as normal items is LITERALLY the same as saying Dhampirs heal from CLW, despite rules to the contrary.


^Even if for some very strange reason what you were saying was correct by RAW, which I don't think is the case, I'm pretty confident in that by RAI unattended magic items doesn't get a saving throw.

I mean, how exactly will you explain that an unattended object makes a Reflexes save? And also, Grease is very concrete about the reason behind that saving throw, which is that if an attended item is the target the creature who is carrying it doesn't drop it.

Grease wrote:
The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and combat maneuver checks made to escape a grapple, and to their CMD to avoid being grappled.


Dallium wrote:
Saying magic items are affected by grease as normal items is LITERALLY the same as saying Dhampirs heal from CLW, despite rules to the contrary.

Now it's dhampirs?

If you're going to change the terms of your imputation of what one side is saying at will, this is no longer much of a discussion. And making up feats for a hypothetical scenario that has no direct bearing is less helpful than looking at the text that we are discussing.

To that end, the verbiage I can find on magic item saves says: "Magic items should always get a saving throw against spells that might deal damage to them—even against attacks from which a nonmagical item would normally get no chance to save."

Grease doesn't deal damage.


actually, that's a good point. the save isn't to avoid the item (magic or otherwise) becoming greasy, it's to be able to hold on to the item *every time you try to use it*.
The item isn't getting the save, the user is.


quibblemuch wrote:
Dallium wrote:
Saying magic items are affected by grease as normal items is LITERALLY the same as saying Dhampirs heal from CLW, despite rules to the contrary.

Now it's dhampirs?

Yeah, I was wrong about how the undead interaction with Cure spells is stated. Prior to looking it up this morning, I would have confidently put a very large amount of money behind the idea that Cure spells only mentioned creatures, and the actual "undead are harmed by cure spells" was enumerated in the rules for the undead subtype. I felt no need to look it up because I was absolutely sure that was how it worked. Until, of course I looked it up.

So yeah, I wasn't about to throw good money after bad. And in that spirit, I also have to agree with the rest of your post. Grease doesn't do damage, so the magic item saving throw clause is never triggered. Again, I was so confident that magic items always get saving throws I didn't bother to look it up.

edduardco wrote:
I'm pretty confident in that by RAI unattended magic items doesn't get a saving throw.

Your confidence is as misplaced as mine was.

CRB wrote:
Magical Items: Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item's Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better
edduardco wrote:
I mean, how exactly will you explain that an unattended object makes a Reflexes save?

Magic


Good find @Dallium I think that wins the specific cup! Grease doesn't mention magic items so 'always' wins.


Andy Brown wrote:

actually, that's a good point. the save isn't to avoid the item (magic or otherwise) becoming greasy, it's to be able to hold on to the item *every time you try to use it*.

The item isn't getting the save, the user is.

OK, I'm rethinking myself here. It kind of depends how you read the way that part of grease is punctuated:

Grease wrote:
Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item.

I think the normal reading is that if the initial reflex save is made, the item isn't greased. A short while ago, my group looked at that again, and came to the conclusion that the "saving throw must be made every round" part applied anyway, as it's a separate sentence to "If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item."

I'm now leaning back to the other way (make the first save and it's not greasy), but I'd lean towards "Material objects not in use are always affected" taking precedence over "magic items always get a save", because a single spell effect is more specific than the general magic item rules, and 'material objects' includes both magic and non-magic items.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The magic item gets a save. it doesn't want to be greasy/


1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
The magic item gets a save. it doesn't want to be greasy/

YOU DON'T KNOW ME! DON'T JUDGE!


BigNorseWolf wrote:
The magic item gets a save. it doesn't want to be greasy/

I think that's more an argument for intelligent items getting a save :-)


Andy Brown wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
The magic item gets a save. it doesn't want to be greasy/
I think that's more an argument for intelligent items getting a save :-)

This brings up an interesting corner case.

1. Intelligent magic items are treated as constructs (see: Intelligent Magic Items in the PRD).

2. Sorcerers with the Impossible bloodline can affect constructs with enchantment (compulsion) effects as though the effects were not mind-affecting (see: Champions of Balance).

3. A bladebound magus has an intelligent magic sword, starting at 3rd level (see: Ultimate Magic).

THEREFORE

An impossible sorcerer could turn a bladebound magus's black blade against her, forcing an Ego check/Will save. Hilarity would inevitably ensue.

But I digress...

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Two questions that came up last session: Grease spell and samurai resolve All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.