New Power Attack and Monk's Unarmed Strike


Rules Questions

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Turgan wrote:

@Snowlilly:

you quote a lot but fail to read and understand what you quote. I really advise you to leave the discussion for a moment and read the entry on Power Attack again (as a whole, with concentration) and think about it.

Power attack does not affect a weapon it affects attack and damage rolls. So it does not affect the monk's quasi-natural WEAPON.

Nowhere does the monk entry state that the monk has primary or secondary ATTACKS - his unarmed strike only counts as a natural WEAPON for spells and effects that improve this "weapon". As Power Attack is by RAW not an effect that improves or enhances weapons but attacks/damage rolls, it is not affected.

It's that easy, yes.

I have done so and strongly disagree with your position.

Power attack is an effect that improves weapons. Specifically, it improves the damage attribute of the weapon.


Snowlilly wrote:
A part I have been including. Scroll back up and read the hundred other comments I have made.

You other posts don't matter (and there are multiple posts where you left out the important part) - the post I quoted contains a misquote.

Snowlilly wrote:
General rules are not effects, but Power Attack is.

Now we're getting somewhere! So you concur that general rules are not effects, and since the primary/secondary classification is done via general rules, you must also agree that US is not classified as a primary or secondary attack.

Snowlilly wrote:
In the specific circumstance of Power Attack + Dragon Ferocity, it is beneficial to the monk to have his IUS treated as a natural weapon for effect resolution.

Sure, but the Monk's US doesn't care for what would be most beneficial, it must follow the rules. The classification as primary is not done by Power Attack but by a general rule which you admitted does not apply. So PA treats a Monk's US as a natural weapon, but can not apply the 3:1 modifier without without a classification as primary.


Anonymous Warrior wrote:

Ok, so then let's all settle for one issue at a time then.

  • Is a monk's UAS a Primary Natural Attack. Why or why not?

  • Is a monk's UAS a Primary Natural Attack once it's damage is increased to 1-1/2x Str bonus? Why or why not?

  • Is Power Attack an Effect that it would enhance a Monk's UAS so that it should treat the Monk's UAS as a natural attack if we so choose?

  • If not, is there a way to change this with a feat or ability?

    We can settle this much more quickly (with a lot less violently mauled egos) if everyone who posts either:

  • Replies on each of these bullet points, so we can make the issue less muddy.

  • ...or else explain the reason these points miss the mark, and where the real issue lies.

    And BTW: remember that there is no way that any of this matters for PFS. Seriously, this is so nit-picky that there won't be any consistency unless it gets perma-FAQ'd into rules... and this probably won't even come up for them.

  • Already done, with rules quotes: Breakdown

    • A monks IUS counts as a natural weapon for effects that are beneficial to the monk. For the purpose of resolving effects that care about primary/secondary (and there is no "unclassified" option in RAW) a monks IUS would count as primary because it uses full strength and full BAB. The only other option is secondary, which a monks IUS clearly is not.
    • Increasing the monks IUS to x1.5 does not change its primary secondary status. They already counted as primary for the purposes of effects, they continue to count as primary.
    • Power attack is an effect that applies its affect based on they type of weapon, how the weapon is used, strength modifier, and primary secondary status. When weapon classification is checked, the classification that is most beneficial to the monk is used. In the specific case of Dragon Ferocity, IUS being treated as a natural weapon provides the most beneficial affect.
    • Monks specifically count their IUS as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for beneficial effects. Any time an affect checks the monk's IUS for classification, the most beneficial classification for the monk is used.

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

    "Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons"

    Happy to help.


    Snowlilly wrote:
    A monks IUS counts as a natural weapon for effects that are beneficial to the monk. For the purpose of resolving effects that care about primary/secondary (and there is no "unclassified" option in RAW) a monks IUS would count as primary because it uses full strength and full BAB. The only other option is secondary, which a monks IUS clearly is not.

    The problem is your making that part up. The rules do not say to treat a Monk's unarmed strike as a Primary Natural Attack.

    That's all just you.

    The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

    Snowlilly wrote:
    I have done so and strongly disagree with your position.

    Guess what? You can disagree. That doesn't make you right.


    CBDunkerson wrote:

    "Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons"

    Happy to help.

    But a Monk's unarmed strike does, it's just not specified as being either Primary or Secondary (just never off-hand)

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
    Andy Brown wrote:
    But a Monk's unarmed strike does, it's just not specified as being either Primary or Secondary (just never off-hand)

    Because it's not a natural weapon. It counts as a natural weapon, but for all other purposes, it is not.


    CBDunkerson wrote:

    "Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons"

    Happy to help.

    Nice general rule.

    Monks have a specific rule that says their IUS is treated as a natural weapon for effects.

    Specific > general.


    Brain in a Jar wrote:
    Snowlilly wrote:
    A monks IUS counts as a natural weapon for effects that are beneficial to the monk. For the purpose of resolving effects that care about primary/secondary (and there is no "unclassified" option in RAW) a monks IUS would count as primary because it uses full strength and full BAB. The only other option is secondary, which a monks IUS clearly is not.

    The problem is your making that part up. The rules do not say to treat a Monk's unarmed strike as a Primary Natural Attack.

    That's all just you.

    RAW does say all natural attacks are either primary or secondary.

    If you want to argue for secondary, try to make the case.


    Snowlilly wrote:

    RAW does say all natural attacks are either primary or secondary.

    If you want to argue for secondary, try to make the case.

    That's fine. I'm not trying to claim they are secondary, because they aren't a Natural Attack. It is only treated as such for certain purposes.

    Treated as does not equal is a Natural Attack.

    Just because a Monk's Unarmed Strike is: "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

    Nothing in that ability makes a Monk's Unarmed Strike Primary or Secondary it only does what it says nothing more.

    That lets things like Magic Fang function...it doesn't make them a Primary or Secondary Natural Attack. It just lets a Monk pretend it's a Natural Attack for certain reasons.


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    Snowlilly wrote:


    RAW does say all natural attacks are either primary or secondary.

    If you want to argue for secondary, try to make the case.

    Normally all natural attacks are primary or secondary, but the monk's unarmed strike doesn't categorize itself.

    Snowlilly wrote:


    Specific > general.


    Brain in a Jar wrote:
    Snowlilly wrote:

    RAW does say all natural attacks are either primary or secondary.

    If you want to argue for secondary, try to make the case.

    That's fine. I'm not trying to claim they are secondary, because they aren't a Natural Attack. It is only treated as such for certain purposes.

    Treated as does not equal is a Natural Attack.

    Just because a Monk's Unarmed Strike is: "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

    Nothing in that ability makes a Monk's Unarmed Strike Primary or Secondary it only does what it says nothing more.

    That lets things like Magic Fang function...it doesn't make them a Primary or Secondary Natural Attack. It just lets a Monk pretend it's a Natural Attack for certain reasons.

    While the monk ability does not specify primary/secondary, RAW elsewhere does state that all natural weapons are one or the other.

    When an effect is applied that checks primary/secondary, a classification is, by RAW, required.


    Snowlilly wrote:


    While the monk ability does not specify primary/secondary, RAW elsewhere does state that all natural weapons are one or the other.

    When an effect is applied that checks primary/secondary, a classification is, by RAW, required.

    The monk ability doesn't specify because it doesn't make an Unarmed Strike a Natural Attack.

    Yes the rules to classify Natural Attacks as Primary or Secondary. But Monk Unarmed Strikes are not either because they are not Natural Attack...

    You are incorrectly applying your opinion on how it works.

    Nothing by the rules forces a classification of Unarmed Strikes to be Primary or Secondary for Natural Attacks... Because Unarmed Strikes are not Natural Attacks ...

    Let that sink in...You can't classify it like that because they aren't a Natural Attack.

    F@+$.


    Snowlilly wrote:


    I have done so and strongly disagree with your position.

    Power attack is an effect that improves weapons. Specifically, it improves the damage attribute of the weapon.

    Power Attack specifically affects melee attack rolls. It doesn't do anything to the weapon used.

    The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

    This thread is leading nowhere. Someone should create a clean detailed (past thread links) tthread with a request to not debate that we can target FAQs and then just let this thread die. Obviously each side won't allow the other their position because both sides can't accept "table variance until FAQ".

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
    Snowlilly wrote:
    CBDunkerson wrote:

    "Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons"

    Happy to help.

    Nice general rule.

    Monks have a specific rule that says their IUS is treated as a natural weapon for effects.

    Specific > general.

    Nope. That 'general rule' cites and specifically includes monks.

    The 'specific rule' you refer to says rather that Monk unarmed strikes are treated as natural weapons for a few specific purposes.

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