New Power Attack and Monk's Unarmed Strike


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Chess Pwn wrote:

Power attack is checking if the weapon is a primary natural attack. IUS is not.

Power attack IS NOT an effect that enhance or improve natural attacks. Power attack affects YOU, Since power attack isn't DOING anything to any natural attacks, the natural attack clause in monk's IUS doesn't activate.

Primary attacks are defined as attacks with natural weapons made with the users full BAB and either full strength or x1.5 strength.

The RAW for this definition has been provided.
Multiple times.


Snowlilly wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
stuff
  • 1. Power attack is an effect that enhances natural weapons. The degree of enhancement depends on classification; either Primary or Secondary.
  • 2. Monks unarmed attacks count as natural weapons for effects.
  • 3. There are only two possible classifications for natural weapons and monk unarmed strikes meet all the criteria for Primary.

Snowlilly, the bolded statement is incorrect. Power Attack is not an effect that enhances weapons, it is an effect that enhances attacks.

Power Attack:
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.

You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

An example of something that enhances natural weapons would be

Eldritch Claws:
Your natural weapons are considered both magic and silver for purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
or
Magic Fang:
Magic fang gives one natural weapon or unarmed strike of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. The spell does not change an unarmed strike's damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.

Magic fang can be made permanent with a permanency spell.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
RAW wrote:
A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

So i suppose following your logic a Monk can't use his on fists in a Flurry of Blows?

Since like you said...

Snowlilly wrote:
RAW: Monk unarmed strikes count as natural weapons for effects
So following your logic all Monks would need Feral Combat Training. Strange.

Count as natural weapons for effects that enhance or improve ≠ are natural attacks.

Power attack is an effect that enhances natural weapons.

Sidenote: monk unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons for effects that diminish or penalize natural attacks.


Hi, why don't we all quit bickering and just FAQ the damn question.

I suspect I know which answer is the correct one, but clearly this isn't going to be resolved without official comment.


Not that if will ever be officially answered, but a FAQ appropriate question has been posted.


Snowlilly wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
RAW wrote:
A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

So i suppose following your logic a Monk can't use his on fists in a Flurry of Blows?

Since like you said...

Snowlilly wrote:
RAW: Monk unarmed strikes count as natural weapons for effects
So following your logic all Monks would need Feral Combat Training. Strange.

Count as natural weapons for effects that enhance or improve ≠ are natural attacks.

Power attack is an effect that enhances natural weapons.

Sidenote: monk unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons for effects that diminish or penalize natural attacks.

Oh okay gotcha.

Power Attack isn't enhancing or improving a natural attack. It simply allows a penalty to attack for a bonus to damage based on the attack being used.

A Monk's Unarmed Strikes are not a Natural Attack. That's the entire reason they include the part about treating them like Natural Attacks/Manufactured Weapons for spells and effects...

I've seen this type of argument before on the forums. No matter what people tell you....you will be right.

You are absolutely wrong and have already been proven to be wrong.

I won't be discussing this any further. It's a waste of time.


Ridiculon wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
stuff
  • 1. Power attack is an effect that enhances natural weapons. The degree of enhancement depends on classification; either Primary or Secondary.
  • 2. Monks unarmed attacks count as natural weapons for effects.
  • 3. There are only two possible classifications for natural weapons and monk unarmed strikes meet all the criteria for Primary.

Snowlilly, the bolded statement is incorrect. Power Attack is not an effect that enhances weapons, it is an effect that enhances attacks.

** spoiler omitted **

An example of something that enhances natural weapons would be ** spoiler omitted ** or ** spoiler omitted **...

Power Attack is dependent upon the weapon making the attack. The type of weapon and its classification determine the weapons eligibility for application of power attack and, if applicable, to what degree power attack is applied.


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Snowlilly wrote:
  • 1. Power attack is an effect that enhances natural weapons. The degree of enhancement depends on classification; either Primary or Secondary.
  • 2. Monks unarmed attacks count as natural weapons for effects.
  • 3. There are only two possible classifications for natural weapons and monk unarmed strikes meet all the criteria for Primary.

RAW has been provided. If you have RAW that runs counter to that, please provide it. Right now all anyone is offering as a counter is "I disagree."

I have provided RAW backing my position.

You are welcome to provide RAW backing your position.

1) Yes.

2) Yes.
3) No. There are natural attacks, and there are secondary natural attacks. Power attack mentions primary natural attacks, but these are not defined in the Natural attacks section of Combat. We can understand that if an attack is not secondary, then it is primary.

Quote:
If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

Because monks do not possess a natural attack, they do not add 1-1/2 times their strength bonus on damage rolls.

Quote:
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

Secondary natural attacks get a lesser benefit.

Quote:
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

Because a monk is not adding 1-1/2 times strength modifier to his attack then power attack cannot increase its damage bonus by half.


Tarantula wrote:
Quote:
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
Because a monk is not adding 1-1/2 times strength modifier to his attack then power attack cannot increase its damage bonus by half.

Dragon Ferocity increases the strength modifier to x1.5 on all attacks, qualifying the monk for the increased damage from power attack.


Dragon ferocity still does not make their unarmed strike a primary natural attack.


Tarantula wrote:
Dragon ferocity still does not make their unarmed strike a primary natural attack.

The definition of Primary Natural Attack: attacks made without weapons that use the attackers full BAB and full strength.

Dragon Ferocity has nothing to with the attack classification as primary/secondary. The RAW for classification, and the requirement for a classification, are found under the rules for natural attacks.

What Dragon Ferocity does is change the strength modifier from x1 to x1.5, which changes the interaction with Power Attack.


Quote:
The definition of Primary Natural Attack: attacks made without weapons that use the attackers full BAB and full strength.

Natural attacks are not made without weapons, they are made with natural weapons. Unarmed strikes are made without weapons.

Quote:
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

A monks unarmed strike is not made with a natural weapon. It is not a primary natural weapon, because it is not a natural weapon. It is neither primary nor secondary. It does count as a natural weapon for benefits, but because power attack specifies primary natural weapon, it does not apply to monk unarmed strikes.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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Snowlilly wrote:
Please provide RAW backing your position.

Please see all posts by Snowlilly RAW as RAW backing the position opposite to Snowlilly.


Snowlilly wrote:
  • 2. Monks unarmed attacks count as natural weapons for effects.
  • "spells and effects that enhance or improve (...) natural weapons." - this does not include basic rules!*

    "[Natural] attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks." - this is a basic rule, it's not an enhancing or improving effect. UAS has no text that makes this classification apply to it.

    *) If it did, the "if you have only one NA, it adds 1.5 x STR top damage" rule would also work for it. But that would contradict Dragon Ferocit's text, so it's not true. A mere classification that doesn't add anything on it's own can't fall under "effects that enhance or improve" when adding more damage doesn't.


    Derklord wrote:
    Snowlilly wrote:
  • 2. Monks unarmed attacks count as natural weapons for effects.
  • "spells and effects that enhance or improve (...) natural weapons." - this does not include basic rules!*

    "[Natural] attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks." - this is a basic rule, it's not an enhancing or improving effect. UAS has no text that makes this classification apply to it.

    *) If it did, the "if you have only one NA, it adds 1.5 x STR top damage" rule would also work for it. But that would contradict Dragon Ferocit's text, so it's not true. A mere classification that doesn't add anything on it's own can't fall under "effects that enhance or improve" when adding more damage doesn't.

    Power Attact is an effect, and how it works is dependent upon classification.

    It must be resolved as either a primary natural weapon or a secondary when modifying natural weapons. RAW states all natural weapons are one or the other. There is no "unclassified " option in RAW.


    A monks attack is never actually a natural attack, so it never gets categorised as primary or secondary. The rules simply don't work that way.

    If something relevant asks IUS "are you a natural attack?" IUS answers yes/no as appropriate - it is as simple as that.

    Grand Lodge

    I fear that not only does this not work, but that somehow the clarification you're seeking will make monks weaker and druids even stronger.


    Wait, it would seem that power attack effects attack and damage it does not effect weapons.

    What are people defining as effects if not enchantments, spells, super natural abilities etc that target weapons?

    If the definition of effect is not limited, why would primary natural weapon getting 1.5 strength to damage not be "an effect" that applies to unarmed strikes? It seems to me the argument requires two things. The first establishing what constitutes an effect and is it an effect on a weapon.

    Some bards buff attack and damage, skalds buff strength, but spell warrior skalds effect weapons. Each can get a +1 to attack and damage in their own way but not all of these are effects on weapons.

    Moreover, power attack modifies attack and damage and weapons modify power attack as it is written.

    The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

    Oncoming_Storm wrote:
    I fear that not only does this not work, but that somehow the clarification you're seeking will make monks weaker and druids even stronger.

    +1

    I'd be just about anything the FAQ would go against IUS being a Primary Natural Weapon. I wouldn't even be surprised if Dragon Style gets another round of errata.


    Brain in a Jar wrote:
    RAW wrote:
    A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

    So i suppose following your logic a Monk can't use his on fists in a Flurry of Blows?

    Since like you said...

    Snowlilly wrote:
    RAW: Monk unarmed strikes count as natural weapons for effects

    So following your logic all Monks would need Feral Combat Training. Strange.

    You forget, Monks get to treat it as a manufactured weapon when beneficial AND a NATURAL weapon when Beneficial.

    So, FoB checks if NAT
    Go to: Manufctored for a split second.
    Then the Monk gets to cheat it as a NATURAL for whatever he feels like.
    Because Monks get to cheat that way.


    James Risner wrote:
    Oncoming_Storm wrote:
    I fear that not only does this not work, but that somehow the clarification you're seeking will make monks weaker and druids even stronger.

    +1

    I'd be just about anything the FAQ would go against IUS being a Primary Natural Weapon. I wouldn't even be surprised if Dragon Style gets another round of errata.

    Another round? what happened with Dragon Style?

    The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

    It got changed because people were interpreting it as add more STR bonus that designed.


    Ok, i must have completely missed that debate.... it currently works, as relating to strength only, as 1.5 on your first hit in a round, the second feat in the style allows 2x strength on the first hit and 1.5 on iterative hits, right?

    And if stacked with something like Horn of the Criosphinx the first hit on a charge would deal 2.5 strength modifier followed by 1.5 on further hits?

    The Exchange

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    Power Attack:
    Power Attack (Combat)
    You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.

    Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
    Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

    Natural Attacks:
    Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

    Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

    You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

    Unarmed Strike:
    Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.

    Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

    A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

    A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown above on Table: Monk. The unarmed damage values listed on Table: Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage on the table given below.

    Sorry but even if you won the whole Unarmed Strike = Primary Natural Weapon... which you're wrong you just won't accept the lack of a clear statement saying so as proof. Your plan still fails by the requirement of power attack that the natural attack must add 1.5xSTR to the attack for it to add the extra Power attack damage.

    And IF a Monk's Unarmed Attack did equal a Primary Natural attack a Monk would deal 1.5xSTR dmg every time they attacked with a single attack and did not Full round/Flurry. But even that would still leave you only winning on a Single attack action, any time you tried to take a full attack or flurry of blows it would be the same as a primary claw/claw attack which does NOT get the 1.5xSTR bonus, so does NOT get the bonus Power Attack dmg.


    I believe the argument is that when in Dragon Style the Monk Unarmed Strike does get 1.5 Strength Damage.


    Stephen Ede wrote:
    I believe the argument is that when in Dragon Style the Monk Unarmed Strike does get 1.5 Strength Damage.

    Only for the first Unarmed Strike in a round.

    Even then it still doesn't make an Unarmed Strike a Primary Natural Weapon.

    Even with a Monk: "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

    It still doesn't matter. Power Attack isn't enhancing or improving a manufactured weapon or a natural weapon.

    It only affects melee attack and damage rolls. It only checks for what type of attack is being used to either increase or decrease the bonus damage roll.

    An Unarmed Strike isn't a Two-Handed Weapon, a One-Handed Weapon using two hands, or a Primary Natural Weapon. So it will not get the increased damage.

    Until someone can post a rule that flat-out says an Unarmed Strike is a Primary Natural Weapon it simply doesn't matter.


    Dragon Ferocity applies the 1.5 x modifier to all unarmed attacks.

    Your opinion that Power Attack doesn't enhance or improve Manufactured or Natural weapons is noted but is only an opinion. While it may be the correct interpretation of what the Developers mean it is by no means without reasonable disagreement.

    While I believe that any FAQ/Errata is likely to support the view that IAUS doesn't gain the benefit of bonus Power Attack damage even with Dragon Ferocity I have been wrong about their intentions before and I have found arguments by both sides that "it is indisputably "x" and any other view holds no validity at all" to involve at least some creative interpretations passed off as absolute clear RAW.

    As for "Until someone can post a rule that flat-out says an Unarmed Strike is a Primary Natural Weapon it simply doesn't matter."
    I would offer a counter - "Until someone can post a rule that flat-out says an Unarmed Strike is a secondary Natural Weapon it simply doesn't matter." since there are only Primary and Secondary Natural weapons if it isn't one then surely it must be the other.

    Note: I don't actually consider that argument definitive, but it is as almost as definitive as your claim.

    RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

    Monk unarmed strikes are not primary natural attacks. Plus, the Power Attack feat is obviously referring to primary natural attacks as indicated under the natural attack universal monster rules, which the monk unarmed strikes do not fall under.


    Snowlilly wrote:


    Primary attacks are defined as attacks with natural weapons made with the users full BAB and either full strength or x1.5 strength.

    I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, those are the properties of primary natural attacks, but more specifically the rules say that primary natural attacks receives those benefits, not that those benefits necessarily mean primary natural attack.

    That is to say, there's nothing to support this assertion that you can reverse engineer the benefits the way you are.


    Tarantula wrote:
    Combat wrote:

    Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

    Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

    An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see "Armed" Unarmed Attacks, below).

    "Armed" Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).

    Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).

    Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).

    Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.

    Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of

    ...

    I'm not sure why the discussion didn't end here. There's obviously three categories for attacks without a manufactured weapon and an unarmed strike is clearly separate from a natural attack.

    As for Power Attack, it's already been stated that it doesn't improved or enhance the weapon used. By RAW, you don't cast Power Attack on your weapon; by RAI, you just swing it harder. Compare that to a feat like [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/arcane-strike-combat]Arcane Strike[url], where you apply an effect directly to the weapon used.


    I agree with everyone who pointed out that unarmed strikes are neither primary nor secondary and don't need to be as they are not actually natural attacks.

    But in the given example that doesn't even matter. While you may attack with a weapon using an 1.5 STR modifier, this modifier doesn't get added by the weapon but your style. Power attack requires the weapon to provide it.


    Stephen Ede wrote:
    Dragon Ferocity applies the 1.5 x modifier to all unarmed attacks.

    No it doesn't. Only Dragon Style applies 1.5 STR. Ferocity only gives a bonus to damage.

    Dragon Ferocity wrote:
    "While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus."
    Dragon Style wrote:
    "Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round."
    Stephen Ede wrote:
    Your opinion that Power Attack doesn't enhance or improve Manufactured or Natural weapons is noted but is only an opinion. While it may be the correct interpretation of what the Developers mean it is by no means without reasonable disagreement.

    I'm sorry that's not my opinion. That's how Power attack functions within the rules. Power Attack never alters or improves a weapon.

    Power Attack wrote:
    You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls.

    That is what it alters. Nothing else. Last time I checked melee attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, and melee damage rolls weren't Manufactured or Natural weapons.

    Stephen Ede wrote:
    I would offer a counter - "Until someone can post a rule that flat-out says an Unarmed Strike is a secondary Natural Weapon it simply doesn't matter." since there are only Primary and Secondary Natural weapons if it isn't one then surely it must be the other.

    No one can do that. Primary or Secondary.

    Because read the rules...Unarmed Strikes are not Natural Attacks.

    Unarmed Strike wrote:
    An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (Core Rulebook 182). An unarmed strike can't be disarmed.

    The only time it is treated otherwise is in the case of the Monk (or similar classes) that get:

    Monk Unarmed Strike wrote:
    A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

    Which still doesn't make them a Natural Attack, so they still aren't Primary or Secondary. No one will find a rule that classifies them as a Primary or Secondary Natural Attack because...Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons.

    Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons
    Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons
    Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons
    Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons

    Just keep reading that.


    Brain in a Jar wrote:
    Stephen Ede wrote:
    Dragon Ferocity applies the 1.5 x modifier to all unarmed attacks.

    No it doesn't. Only Dragon Style applies 1.5 STR. Ferocity only gives a bonus to damage.

    Dragon Ferocity wrote:
    "While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus."
    Dragon Style wrote:
    "Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round."
    Dragon ferocity wrote:
    While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of double your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the other attacks.

    Ferocity isn't giving bonus damage. It's increasing the str you're using setting it to 1.5 same as dragon style does for the first attack.


    I stand corrected on Dragon Ferocity.

    I looked on Archive of Nethys. I didn't know the wording got updated.

    Though I still stand by the rest of what I said.


    and I agree with that, they aren't either.

    The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

    I three-gree. ;-)


    Squiggit wrote:
    Snowlilly wrote:


    Primary attacks are defined as attacks with natural weapons made with the users full BAB and either full strength or x1.5 strength.

    I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, those are the properties of primary natural attacks, but more specifically the rules say that primary natural attacks receives those benefits, not that those benefits necessarily mean primary natural attack.

    That is to say, there's nothing to support this assertion that you can reverse engineer the benefits the way you are.

    The same paragraph in the rules also states that all natural weapons are either primary or secondary.

    Secondary weapons receive a -5 attack penalty and x.5 strength modifier. A monk's unarmed strikes match the profile for primary weapons, the monk's unarmed strike do not match the profile for a secondary weapon.

    The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

    Matching the profile of a primary doesn't make a non-natural weapon a Primary Natural weapon. Otherwise all weapons that are the same type, deal the same damage, and have the same crib would all be the same weapon.


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    I think the biggest kink in the whole argument for Power Attack adding 1.5 bonus for UAS in conjunction with Dragon Style/Ferocity is the If/Then nature of a Primary Natural Attack.


      The Raw is effectively: If Primary Natural Attack, then 1.5 STR bonus.

      The way some people in this thread are interpreting it is: If 1.5 STR bonus AND considered natural attack, then Primary Natural Attack.

    Assuming the latter is a logical fallacy.

    **Edit:

    Another way to look at this is:

    Natural weapons <this is what the monk cares about

    --Primary <this is what Power Attack cares about

    --Secondary


    Mantipper wrote:

    I think the biggest kink in the whole argument for Power Attack adding 1.5 bonus for UAS in conjunction with Dragon Style/Ferocity is the If/Then nature of a Primary Natural Attack.


      The Raw is effectively: If Primary Natural Attack, then 1.5 STR bonus.

      The way some people in this thread are interpreting it is: If 1.5 STR bonus AND considered natural attack, then Primary Natural Attack.

    Assuming the latter is a logical fallacy.

    **Edit:

    Another way to look at this is:

    Natural weapons <this is what the monk cares about

    --Primary <this is what Power Attack cares about

    --Secondary

    There are only two possible classifications for natural weapons within RAW.

    A. Primary
    B. Secondary

    There is no option C. There is no option for "unclassified."

    The monk's unarmed strike is classified as a Natural Weapon for effects and all natural weapons, by RAW, are classified as either Primary or Secondary.

    Power Attack, an effect, cares about primary/secondary classification.


    Quote:


    There are only two possible classifications for natural weapons within RAW.

    A. Primary
    B. Secondary

    There is no option C. There is no option for "unclassified."

    The monk's unarmed strike is classified as a Natural Weapon for effects and all natural weapons, by RAW, are classified as either Primary or Secondary.

    Power Attack, an effect, cares about primary/secondary classification.

    But you're assuming that because it is both a natural attack (as far as monk is concerned for effects that modify them) and has 1.5 str modifier because of dragon style, that it must be primary. You're reversing the If/Then of Primary Natural Attacks. That's like saying a bird is a duck, because a duck is a bird.

    Just because a monk considers their UAS as a natural attack, does not make it one. They're effectively ignoring the natural attack requirement for effects that modify them, they're not gaining a natural attack.


    Mantipper wrote:


    But you're assuming that because it is both a natural attack (as far as monk is concerned for effects that modify them) and has 1.5 str modifier because of dragon style, that it must be primary. You're reversing the If/Then of Primary Natural Attacks. That's like saying a bird is a duck, because a duck is a bird.

    I am quoting the RAW that monk's unarmed strikes count as natural weapons.

    I am quoting the requirement in RAW that all natural weapons must be classified as either primary or secondary.

    I am quoting in RAW where Power Attack checks that classification to determine effect.

    Quote:
    [Just because a monk considers their UAS as a natural weapon, does not make it one. They're effectively ignoring the natural attack requirement for effects that modify them, they're not gaining a natural attack.

    Fixed this for you.

    For purposes of resolving any beneficial effect, yes, the monks fist is a natural weapon.

    The definition of natural attack.

    RAW wrote:
    Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon)

    Emphasis mine.

    For the purpose of resolving beneficial effects, the monks unarmed strike, classified as a natural weapon, does meet the RAW definition of a natural attack.

    The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

    Actual natural weapons must be primary or secondary. You can't quote a rule saying Unarmed are natural except for effects, and since it doesn't say primary or secondary it's neither.


    Monk UAS classification from the class page:
    A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

    They're treated as a natural weapon (and manufactured) for spells and effects. This does not make the monk's UAS a natural weapon, only that it is considered one.

    Natural Attack vs. Unarmed Attack:
    Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do.

    This was pulled just a couple of paragraphs below the one that states most creatures have one and states they are either primary or secondary. It seems clear to me that an UAS is not a natural weapon.

    Also, according to your logic, a monk could enchant his fists without outside means (such as Amulet of Mighty Fists) because it is a manufactured weapon, as well as having the potential of being disarmed or sundered.


    Can we give it to monks just because they are monks and as such already miss out on all that is good in life?

    Seriously... they can't even trade a feat in for a Ki Power.

    Must we kick them while they are down... which is all of the time?


    JAMRenaissance wrote:

    Can we give it to monks just because they are monks and as such already miss out on all that is good in life?

    Seriously... they can't even trade a feat in for a Ki Power.

    Must we kick them while they are down... which is all of the time?

    I agree whole-heartedly, I'd personally enjoy seeing an errata to Dragon style that specifies the UAS' as primary natural attacks for the purpose of other feats/effects. Until then, I'd have that as a houserule for my campaigns, but for a campaign with strict RAW requirements it's not quite there (at least to my understanding).


    JAMRenaissance wrote:
    Can we give it to monks just because they are monks and as such already miss out on all that is good in life?

    IF you want to fix monks that's fine, but you don't accomplish that by making one of their best options even better and improving them in an area they already perform just fine.


    James Risner wrote:
    Actual natural weapons must be primary or secondary. You can't quote a rule saying Unarmed are natural except for effects, and since it doesn't say primary or secondary it's neither.

    And you cannot have a natural weapon that is neither.

    If you have Raw that supports your position for an unclassified natural weapon post it.

    You've seen the RAW stating all natural weapons must be either primary or secondary a dozen times.

    I've posted the RAW stating this at least that many times.


    Mantipper wrote:

    ** spoiler omitted **

    They're treated as a natural weapon (and manufactured) for spells and effects. This does not make the monk's UAS a natural weapon, only that it is considered one.

    ** spoiler omitted **

    This was pulled just a couple of paragraphs below the one that states most creatures have one and states they are either primary or secondary. It seems clear to me that an UAS is not a natural weapon.

    Also, according to your logic, a monk could enchant his fists without outside means (such as Amulet of Mighty Fists) because it is a manufactured weapon, as well as having the potential of being disarmed or sundered.

    For non-monks, UAS is a light weapon, not a natural weapon.

    Monk's have a specific rule allowing them to treat their UAS as both manufactured weapons and natural weapons.


    Snowlilly wrote:

    And you cannot have a natural weapon that is neither.

    If you have Raw that supports your position for an unclassified natural weapon post it.

    You've seen the RAW stating all natural weapons must be either primary or secondary a dozen times.

    I've posted the RAW stating this at least that many times.

    And I've posted RAW stating that a creature without a Natural Weapon can make an unarmed strike instead. I'll say it again, you can't call a bird a duck because a duck is a bird. Just because a monk treats his UAS as a natural weapon for spells and effects doesn't make his UAS a natural weapon.

    Snowlilly wrote:

    For non-monks, UAS is a light weapon, not a natural weapon.

    Monk's have a specific rule allowing them to treat their UAS as both manufactured weapons and natural weapons.

    For Monks it's still a light weapon that happens to be treated as both a natural weapon and manufactured for the explicit purpose of spells and effects that enhance and improve them.

    Unarmed Strike:
    An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat). The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

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