New Power Attack and Monk's Unarmed Strike


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Hello!
Recently I noticed that d20pfsrd has new wording for Power Attack, which eliminates light and one-handed weapons from description and deals only with primary and off-hand/secondary attacks.
neat upgrade

But today I suddenly realized one little combo:

Power Attack states:

Spoiler:
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

and if you go Dragon Style feat chain, than you can get Dragon Ferocity feat, which states:

Spoiler:
While using Dragon Style, [b]increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of double your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1–½ times your Strength bonus on other attacks.

And monk's unarmed strike is specifically states that it is counted as both natural and manufactured weapon.
Thus, Dragon Ferocity qualifies monk's unarmed strike for +50% damage increase from Power Attack.

So, if I'm reading this right, monks with dragon style should enjoy 1 to 3 exchange ratio for their Power Attacks.

Am I right? Do I miss something?


Looks correct.

Dragon Style was always optimal for a monk DPR build. Now it is more so.


I feel like this FAQ is going to come into it...

Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?

No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.


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The "new wording" for power attack is straight from the CRB, and has been that way as long as I have played PF.


GM Rednal wrote:

I feel like this FAQ is going to come into it...

Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?

No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.

I think you don't understand what I'm trying to tell here.

It's not about stacking Strength bonus. It's about Dragon Ferocity changing unarmed strike formula so it qualifies for PA +50% damage bonus (i.e. +3 damage for each point of penalty).

Please read once again, but pay more attention this time. And please don't do this again.

Java Man wrote:
The "new wording" for power attack is straight from the CRB, and has been that way as long as I have played PF.

Wow. I guess I never actually read it. ha-ha.

Than it changes question to "Was this a Dragon Ferocity's intended feature from the start?"


The small quibble I can see is whether or not the monk's unarmed strike is a "primary" natural attack. We are told it counts as a natural attack, in this case it gets the 1 1/2 str bonus, it certainly does not have the penalties of a secondary attack, but as far as I know is never called out as primary. Can a natural attack be neither primary or secondary?


Don't... answer your questions based on what I thought you were asking?

...

Well, if you insist. *Shrugs* I'll try to remember.

Scarab Sages

No. monk unarmed strikes are not natural attacks. They are only treated as such for effects that enchanted natural attacks. Specifically they are neither primary or secondary and therefore don't qualify as a primary natural attack, even if they manage to do 1.5 steps damage due to dragon style.


What happens if a Monk has the Feral Combat Training (claw) feat?
Now you have a primary natural weapon with a 1.5 Str modifier.


thorin001 wrote:

What happens if a Monk has the Feral Combat Training (claw) feat?

Now you have a primary natural weapon with a 1.5 Str modifier.

This combo sounds legit.


Alright, so we need a Monk, lets say Unchained Scaled Fist for easy Dragon Style access, a race with STR and CHA bonuses, Claws, and FCT...

Demon Spawn Tiefling with the Maw or Claw alternate trait, going for Claw in this case.

Level 1 Weapon Focus
Level 1 Bonus Dragon Style
Level 3 Feral Combat Training
Level 5 Power Attack
Level 6 bonus Dragon Ferocity

Assuming some stats of

STR 21 (16+2 racial+2 Belt+1 Level)
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 8 (10-2 racial)
WIS 10
CHA 16 (14+2 Racial)

(It really doesnt matter too much, just get that STR up for this experiment)

Using Power Attack you are looking at a flurry of:

Claw +9/+9 1D4+13 (average damage of 15)

Compared to the same build kicking something (say with a flying kick that cant be made with those claws anyways)

Kick +9/+9 1D8+11 (average damage of 15.5)

I only know of one way to get your claws to upgrade their damage die to compete with the unarmed strike and that is to spend even more feats on Martial Focus: Natural and Focused Weapon:Claw to match the Die size at level 9.

But then again you get an extra point of damage at level 8 with this trick so you can pull ahead by .5 for a level and then at 9 you jump up to 3 points ahead.

Its a lot of investment for a somewhat minor pay off but i do like the thematics of it.

Scarab Sages

You can't even take focused weapon with martial focus. Martial Focus counts as weapon training for weapon mastery feats only. You can't use it to qualify for advance weapon training.


Doesn't work. A fist is not a two handed weapon, a one handed in two hands, nor a primary natural attack, thus it's not able to get the better power attack.


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Chess Pwn wrote:
Doesn't work. A fist is not a two handed weapon, a one handed in two hands, nor a primary natural attack, thus it's not able to get the better power attack.

What if you hold your fist with your off hand before you make the attack?


swoosh wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Doesn't work. A fist is not a two handed weapon, a one handed in two hands, nor a primary natural attack, thus it's not able to get the better power attack.
What if you hold your fist with your off hand before you make the attack?

Gold! ;)


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I believe Captain Kirk pioneered this technique.


Imbicatus wrote:
You can't even take focused weapon with martial focus. Martial Focus counts as weapon training for weapon mastery feats only. You can't use it to qualify for advance weapon training.

What? i thought there was a feat that required weapon training and allowed you to pick an advanced weapon talent... dang. Without something to up the damage of natural attacks it really isnt worth it, you get an extra 1 point of damage for every four levels and for all those feats invested you are only just lagging behind the regular unarmed strike progression.


As mentioned, unarmed strikes may count as "natural attacks" for effects but they are not and do not count as "primary natural attacks" and so you will not gain better damage with power attack.

This is large part of why flurrying with a two-handed weapon (seven ring sword) is so popular. Because you can flurrying while using the weapon in two-hands and get the extra power attack damage.

Scarab Sages

Torbyne wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
You can't even take focused weapon with martial focus. Martial Focus counts as weapon training for weapon mastery feats only. You can't use it to qualify for advance weapon training.
What? i thought there was a feat that required weapon training and allowed you to pick an advanced weapon talent... dang. Without something to up the damage of natural attacks it really isnt worth it, you get an extra 1 point of damage for every four levels and for all those feats invested you are only just lagging behind the regular unarmed strike progression.

There is an advanced weapon training feat, and it requires weapon training. But it's not a weapon mastery feat, and martial focus only allows you to qualify for weapon mastery feats. It doesn't work for the AWT feat.


Claxon wrote:

As mentioned, unarmed strikes may count as "natural attacks" for effects but they are not and do not count as "primary natural attacks" and so you will not gain better damage with power attack.

This is large part of why flurrying with a two-handed weapon (seven ring sword) is so popular. Because you can flurrying while using the weapon in two-hands and get the extra power attack damage.

... a seven branched sword with nine rings added? i would use that on all monks ever! ;D


Imbicatus wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
You can't even take focused weapon with martial focus. Martial Focus counts as weapon training for weapon mastery feats only. You can't use it to qualify for advance weapon training.
What? i thought there was a feat that required weapon training and allowed you to pick an advanced weapon talent... dang. Without something to up the damage of natural attacks it really isnt worth it, you get an extra 1 point of damage for every four levels and for all those feats invested you are only just lagging behind the regular unarmed strike progression.
There is an advanced weapon training feat, and it requires weapon training. But it's not a weapon mastery feat, and martial focus only allows you to qualify for weapon mastery feats. It doesn't work for the AWT feat.

Ah dangit, i had a few build ideas that used that combo. thats really too bad, the only weapon mastery feat i really like is Ricochet Toss.


Claxon wrote:

As mentioned, unarmed strikes may count as "natural attacks" for effects but they are not and do not count as "primary natural attacks" and so you will not gain better damage with power attack.

This is large part of why flurrying with a two-handed weapon (seven ring sword) is so popular. Because you can flurrying while using the weapon in two-hands and get the extra power attack damage.

Valid point. But!

(mostly for the sake of the argument)

1.Monk's unarmed strike states that it counts as both natural and manufactured weapon for thing thats enhance or improve it. I don't see why it shouldn't count as natural for this purpose.

2. Natural Attacks entry states:

Quote:
Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks.

So every natural attack is either primary or secondary. There are no "simply natural attacks".

Quote:
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.

This clearly identifies monk's attack as primary.

And since it is a primary attack that add 1.5 Strength bonus (due to Dragon Ferocity) it should apply for +50% damage bonus from Power Attack.

Where am I wrong?


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Quote:
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.

The monk does not have a natural attack, he has an unarmed attack. The unarmed attack is considered to be a natural attack for spells and effects that benefit natural attacks, but it is not a natural attack.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Tarantula wrote:
Quote:
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
The monk does not have a natural attack, he has an unarmed attack. The unarmed attack is considered to be a natural attack for spells and effects that benefit natural attacks, but it is not a natural attack.

+1


Tarantula wrote:
Quote:
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
The monk does not have a natural attack, he has an unarmed attack. The unarmed attack is considered to be a natural attack for spells and effects that benefit natural attacks, but it is not a natural attack.

I wonder how many more times this is going to be said in this thread.


Tarantula wrote:
Quote:
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
The monk does not have a natural attack, he has an unarmed attack. The unarmed attack is considered to be a natural attack for spells and effects that benefit natural attacks, but it is not a natural attack.

Power Attack IS and effect that benefits natural attacks.

Scarab Sages

CraziFuzzy wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
Quote:
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
The monk does not have a natural attack, he has an unarmed attack. The unarmed attack is considered to be a natural attack for spells and effects that benefit natural attacks, but it is not a natural attack.
Power Attack IS and effect that benefits natural attacks.

No, power attack is a modification of all attack and damage rolls in a round, that has a special interaction with primary natural attacks. A monks unarmed strike is not a primary natural attack, nor is it a two handed weapon, nor a one handed weapon wielded in two hands, so it doesn't gain the increased damage.


Mark unofficially confirmed that a Monk's IUS was not a primary natural attack when this topic was brought up the first time. Because there's nothing saying that a monk's IUS is a primary natural attack, it just says it is a natural attack for qualifying for some stuff to work on it


While I have a gut reaction to go with no, I can see where the other side is on this one and the rules are weird here because the natural attack part of unarmed strike is very vague.


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Combat wrote:

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see "Armed" Unarmed Attacks, below).

"Armed" Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).

Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).

Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).

Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.

Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

This makes it clear that unarmed attacks are not natural attacks. Power attack gives extra benefits to primary natural attacks. Unarmed strike is not a primary natural attack, so it does not get those benefits.


Imbicatus wrote:
No. monk unarmed strikes are not natural attacks. They are only treated as such for effects that enchanted natural attacks. Specifically they are neither primary or secondary and therefore don't qualify as a primary natural attack, even if they manage to do 1.5 steps damage due to dragon style.

Any natural attack that is not specifically defined as secondary is primary.

There is no "unclassified " category for special attacks. It does not exist.

Any attack made with a natural weapon (which monk unarmed.attacks count as) benefits from anything that modifies natural attacks.

Scarab Sages

Snowlilly wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
No. monk unarmed strikes are not natural attacks. They are only treated as such for effects that enchanted natural attacks. Specifically they are neither primary or secondary and therefore don't qualify as a primary natural attack, even if they manage to do 1.5 steps damage due to dragon style.

Any natural attack that is not specifically defined as secondary is primary.

There is no "unclassified " category for special attacks. It does not exist.

Any attack made with a natural weapon (which monk unarmed.attacks count as) benefits from anything that modifies natural attacks.

Primary natural attacks have specific rules. If a monk unarmed strike was a primary natural attack, they would only be able to make one attack per round, unless they also used a weapon, at which point it would become secondary. A monk unarmed strike is not a natural attack. It is only treated as one for specific effect that enchanted natural attacks. As it is not a natural attack is is not primary.


Imbicatus wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
No. monk unarmed strikes are not natural attacks. They are only treated as such for effects that enchanted natural attacks. Specifically they are neither primary or secondary and therefore don't qualify as a primary natural attack, even if they manage to do 1.5 steps damage due to dragon style.

Any natural attack that is not specifically defined as secondary is primary.

There is no "unclassified " category for special attacks. It does not exist.

Any attack made with a natural weapon (which monk unarmed.attacks count as) benefits from anything that modifies natural attacks.

Primary natural attacks have specific rules. If a monk unarmed strike was a primary natural attack, they would only be able to make one attack per round, unless they also used a weapon, at which point it would become secondary. A monk unarmed strike is not a natural attack. It is only treated as one for specific effect that enchanted natural attacks. As it is not a natural attack is is not primary.

Specific > General

The monk's Flurry of Blows class feature provides the monk a specific attack routine outside the normal choices.


And specifically a monks attack is not a natural attack - primary or otherwise. It counts as a natural attack for a limited number of purposes - it is not a blanket allowance.


dragonhunterq wrote:
And specifically a monks attack is not a natural attack - primary or otherwise. It counts as a natural attack for a limited number of purposes - it is not a blanket allowance.

It counts as a natural weapon for any effect that modifies a natural attack.

That's not what I would call limited.

I do find it cute that people are so hellbent on limiting anything they disagree with that they will argue monks don't benefit from fighting styles.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

It's not limited at all.
It just doesn't count as a primary attack.


We argue rules in the rules forum. Yes the rules can be seen as limiting martial charcters, but that doesn't change how they work.


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James Risner wrote:

It's not limited at all.

It just doesn't count as a primary attack.
Natural Attacks wrote:

Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks.

...

Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls

The definition of Natural Attacks: attacks made without a weapon.

The definition of Primary and Secondary attacks.
All attacks made with natural weapons are either primary or secondary.

Monk wrote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Unlike a standard unarmed strike, a monk's unarmed strike does count as a natural weapon for effects.

Dragon Style wrote:
Benefit: While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of double your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the other attacks.

Dragon Style modifies unarmed combat, allowing x1.5 strength on all attacks.

Power Attack wrote:
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

Power attack is an effect that modifies damage from both manufactured weapons and natural weapons.

What all this adds up to:

  • 1. A monks unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon for effects that enhance natural weapons.
  • 2. Power Attack is an effect hat enhances attacks made with natural weapons
  • 3. Dragon Style sets the users strength modifier for all attacks to x1.5
  • 4. RAW (refer to #1) all attacks made with a natural weapon are either primary or secondary.
  • 5. RAW (refer to #1) natural attacks using the attackers full strength bonus or x1.5 strength bonus are primary.
  • 6. The degree to which Power Attack enhances a natural weapon is determined by the strength modifier and primary/secondary status of the weapon.
  • 7. The monks unarmed fist counts as a natural weapon for effects that modify natural weapons. Power Attack is an effect that modifies natural weapons, with the degree of modification determined by the strength modifier applied to the natural weapon and primary/secondary status of the weapon. Under the rules for natural weapons, a monk's unarmed strike is classified as primary (full strength, full BAB) and with Dragon Style has a x1.5 strength modifier.
  • 8. Conclusion: Monks using both Power Attack and Dragon Style meet all conditions specified in Power Attack to receive the x1.5 damage modifier granted by the feat.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Ok, unarmed strikes are natural attacks.

That means they don't get iteratives for a high BAB.

Enjoy! :]

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

8. Conclusion based on incorrect rules interpretation.

8. Correct Conclusion:
Monks Unarmed are not Primary Natural Attacks confirmed (allegedly) by a PDT member in a post.

I should point out, that was a huge post. It took effort. The problem is that everyone understands how you come to your conclusion, but we don't agree with the conclusion.


This isn't an official source, but I math'd it in Hero Lab. The result of using Power Attack, Dragon Style, and Dragon Ferocity together ended up being 1.5x the character's Strength Modifier (which I set to 10 for easy verification), plus Power Attack's modifier. So, it seems like it's still the 1:2 modifier that Power Attack normally provides.


CBDunkerson wrote:

Ok, unarmed strikes are natural attacks.

That means they don't get iteratives for a high BAB.

Enjoy! :]

1. FoB is a thing.

2. Except where modified by class features/other effects they remain unarmed strikes. (In addition to be treated as both manufactured weapons and natural weapons.)

James Risner wrote:

8. Conclusion based on incorrect rules interpretation.

8. Correct Conclusion:
Monks Unarmed are not Primary Natural Attacks confirmed (allegedly) by a PDT member in a post.

I should point out, that was a huge post. It took effort. The problem is that everyone understands how you come to your conclusion, but we don't agree with the conclusion.

The RAW defining Primary/Secondary natural weapons is in the first quote. As is the RAW stating those are the only two classifications for natural weapons.

To the best of my knowledge, there has been no FAQ/Errata establishing a third category. If you can provide FAQ/Errata that defines a third category for monk unarmed strikes I will concede the point.

Scarab Sages

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There is no category for unarmed strikes because they are not natural attacks. They are unarmed strikes. They are only treated as natural attacks for specific effects that enhance all natural attacks. If something that only effects primary natural attacks like power attack, or secondary natural attacks like multiattack, it doesn't apply because an unarmed strike isn't a natural attack. It's neither primary or secondary because it's not a natural attack.


RAW, monk's IUS aren't natural weapons, thus don't need to be primary or secondary.
RAW monk's IUS are able to be treated as natural attacks, NOT primary natural attacks. This is similar to a weapon attack that is using shocking grasp. I'm pretty sure spell touch attacks don't fall into any of the weapon categories.
RAW, dev has commented that monk's IUS aren't primary or secondary, they just are natural attacks.

So you're welcome to cling on your belief that almost no one shares. Just if you ever post it you'll get a handful of posts "correcting" you every time and you'll probably not find GM's or Players that agree with your view.


Imbicatus wrote:
There is no category for unarmed strikes because they are not natural attacks. They are unarmed strikes. They are only treated as natural attacks for specific effects that enhance all natural attacks. If something that only effects primary natural attacks like power attack, or secondary natural attacks like multiattack, it doesn't apply because an unarmed strike isn't a natural attack. It's neither primary or secondary because it's not a natural attack.
  • 1. Power attack is an effect that enhances natural weapons. The degree of enhancement depends on classification; either Primary or Secondary.
  • 2. Monks unarmed attacks count as natural weapons for effects.
  • 3. There are only two possible classifications for natural weapons and monk unarmed strikes meet all the criteria for Primary.

RAW has been provided. If you have RAW that runs counter to that, please provide it. Right now all anyone is offering as a counter is "I disagree."

Chess Pwn wrote:

RAW, monk's IUS aren't natural weapons, thus don't need to be primary or secondary.

RAW monk's IUS are able to be treated as natural attacks, NOT primary natural attacks. This is similar to a weapon attack that is using shocking grasp. I'm pretty sure spell touch attacks don't fall into any of the weapon categories.
RAW, dev has commented that monk's IUS aren't primary or secondary, they just are natural attacks.

So you're welcome to cling on your belief that almost no one shares. Just if you ever post it you'll get a handful of posts "correcting" you every time and you'll probably not find GM's or Players that agree with your view.

I have provided RAW backing my position.

You are welcome to provide RAW backing your position.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Snowlilly wrote:
RAW has been provided. If you have RAW that runs counter to that, please provide it.

RAW has not been provided.

If you continue this way, this thread will be 1000 posts by next week.


I think it's incorrect to seriously claim Unarmed Strikes are not Natural Attacks, when they are cited as counting as Natural Attacks for effects intended for Natural Attacks.

The multiattack cite is flawed, multiattack reduces a penalty on Secondary NAs, no such penalty exists on Unarmed Strikes.

My reading is PA works with Dragon Style, and that such was intended, because otherwise the far more economical phrasing 'primary natural attacks' could have been used, and it was not.


James Risner wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
RAW has been provided. If you have RAW that runs counter to that, please provide it.

RAW has not been provided.

If you continue this way, this thread will get locked.

RAW wrote:
These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks.

RAW: all natural weapons are classified as either primary or secondary.

RAW wrote:
or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

RAW: Power Attack is an effect that modifies natural weapons

RAW wrote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

RAW: Monk unarmed strikes count as natural weapons for effects

Your position: I don't have to classify monk natural weapons so effects that modify natural weapons don't apply.

RAW has been provided backing my position. All natural weapons are classified as either primary or secondary. The monk's unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon for effects. Power Attack is an effect that modifies natural weapons.

Please provide RAW backing your position.


Power attack is checking if the weapon is a primary natural attack. IUS is not.
Power attack IS NOT an effect that enhance or improve natural attacks. Power attack affects YOU, Since power attack isn't DOING anything to any natural attacks, the natural attack clause in monk's IUS doesn't activate.


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RAW wrote:
A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

So i suppose following your logic a Monk can't use his on fists in a Flurry of Blows?

Since like you said...

Snowlilly wrote:
RAW: Monk unarmed strikes count as natural weapons for effects

So following your logic all Monks would need Feral Combat Training. Strange.

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