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I must admit that a commoner rising to even middling level without learning enought to retrain as a warrior or specialist feels iffy to me.
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I must admit that a commoner rising to even middling level without learning enought to retrain as a warrior or specialist feels iffy to me.
Having grown up in farm country, it doesn't feel iffy at all to me. Add in social orders far more restrictive than the ones we have now and far less opportunity for broader education, and I'm on board with commoners not learning enough to retrain as warriors or experts.
A high level commoner is a guy who has seen some really crazy stuff... and not learned anything particularly valuable from it. He's survived multiple wars, been the hostage of many a villain, picked up some genuine combat skills (nothing specific, just he's better at aiming and tougher than your average peasant), but ultimately just wants to go back home and tend the crops. This isn't due to stupidity, just a lack of ambition.I can't say I like this definition of a high level commoner. They are weaker than any class of the same level, but they still gain plenty of hit points, feats, and skill points. Mechanically, they are far and beyond what regular people are realistically capable of (1st level NPC class).
Well, that's part of what I'm trying to convey. Yeah, they learn an awful lot. They become quite capable in combat, though only with one weapon (unless you add the great variable, feats into that, though only a max of 11 at level 20), and they have enough skill points to either be really great at a few skills, or moderately decent at everything. But they haven't really branched out. If they were truly good at skills, they'd have become an expert. If they were truly good at combat, they'd have become a warrior. Instead, they're just... extremely competent, but at nothing in particular (besides maybe a few minor specialties represented by feat choices).
If the phrase "extremely competent but at nothing in particular" seems odd, that's exactly my point. I think that phrase sums up high level commoners perfectly. And if you don't see a problem with it, you're probably not going to find a problem with the idea of high level commoners running around either.
(For the record, I'd say high level commoners are entirely possible, just a bit depressing, IMO)
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Adventures as written and as played don't really show the vast, sometimes yawning difference between Commoners and PC classes, even at 1st level. On the one hand it works to show they are part of society, on the other maybe there should be some wonder about these adventurer class people.
Here are a couple of examples to compare to that bog-standard Commoner. A 1st level Brawler might even look like a Commoner. He is wearing tatty leather and carries a pretty basic weapon, a small wood chopping handaxe or similar. And there the comparison ends. That brawler could slaughter half a dozen or so ordinary people with his bare hands before HP attrition took him down. That's not like real life, outside of the movies one guy cannot beat a roomful of people up alone and expect to survive, so our level 1 Brawler should be terrifying to an average Joe.
What about someone different, a Level 1 Witch? She immediately has things like the Evil Eye hex, Cause Fear, Charm Person, Dancing Lights, Mending, and Obscuring Mist to name but a few abilities. NPCs should be terrified of her.
How many levels of Commoner are needed to face our Level 1 PCs? this is maybe why we get high level Commoners, because their levels don't count as whole levels. Aside from the HP and the feats which won't be good stuff like Power Attack or Accursed Hex like our heroes, they don't scale in the same way as PC classes. Divide the Commoner class into chunks of three. a 12th level Commoner isn't an astonishing challenge for a 4th level Brawler or Witch aside from the HP. a 20th level one ends up at just under 7th which is much closer to the idea of max level for exceptional real-life people which we want to measure them by.
They cannot compare to our heroes at 7th level, it becomes an abstraction to do so. It doesn't matter at that point if they meet 20th Commoners, they can't be harmed anyway.
How would you all write up Samwise Gamgee?
Nah. He dished out some serious butt-kicking in that tower. That was against orcs, not the work of a low level expert. Fighter, probably.
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Nah. He dished out some serious butt-kicking in that tower. That was against orcs, not the work of a low level expert. Fighter, probably.
Maybe in the movies, I don't recall.
In the book he killed one Orc slave.
The fight against Shelob was much more impressive, but he was holding two magic items which were particularly dangerous to her and still mostly just got lucky.
I'd put him at Expert 2 when they set out from the Shire and add on Rogue 3 by the time they returned.
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Some conversions I did a while back, estimating the "end state" of characters in The Lord of the Rings:
Aragorn - Ranger (Divine Tracker; Good, Nobility) 4/Inquisitor (Community domain) 2; most of his "advanced" healing ability comes from athelas (possibly boosting the Community domain's Calming Touch to heal normal damage and act like a paladin's Mercies in removing other status effects with a Heal check)
Boromir - Fighter (Tactician) 5
Gimli - Fighter (Armor Master) 5; re-skin his "short shirt of steel rings" to adamantine, to simulate the advanced craft of the dwarves (and give him DR 2/-)
Frodo - Unchained Rogue (Sanctified Rogue, Survivalist) 4; completely over WBL with the mithril coat, Sting, etc.
Legolas - Ranger (Skirmisher, Warden) 5
Meriadoc - Unchained Rogue (Scout, Swashbuckler) 4
Peregrin - Unchained Rogue (Acrobat, Scout) 4
Samwise - Unchained Rogue (Scout, Survivalist) 4Gandalf - Istari (Native Outsider)* Sorcerer (Crossblooded, Wildblooded; Empyreal, Visionary) 6 (in his White incarnation; maybe higher, but I doubt it); most of his mastery of fire may actually come from Narya
The magic seems to work more like psychic magic in Occult Adventures than regular AD&D/D&D/Pathfinder.
*- Unknown racial HD (at least a couple), probably at least some spell-like abilities, resistances, etc. Saruman would be a Sorcerer (Crossblooded; Arcane/Maestro); his "withering" could be simulated by increasing negative levels as his "mandate" is withdrawn by the Valar.
I'd guess the hobbits start at about 2nd level at most (possibly just 1st for Peregrin) and leave Rivendell maybe just at or close to 3rd. The rest of the fellowship (other than Gandalf) is probably about 4th (or 5th for Aragorn) and gain maybe one level over the course of the books ("obviously," Middle Earth uses slow advancement ;-P). The retraining rules may also be a factor in the hobbits' becoming more competent (changing NPC class levels to PC class levels).
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Is there a way to do Samwise as a higher level commoner? Because to me, that's what he is -- the gardener that was needed for Frodo to succeed.
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Yes, the level 6 Sorceror defeated a Balrog in hand to hand combat.
Don't listen to me though, I have no love of trying to see how low level you can make a case for heroes and demigods of legend being.
Since this was being done 40 years ago it won't ever go away.
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Yes, the level 6 Sorceror defeated a Balrog in hand to hand combat.
Don't listen to me though, I have no love of trying to see how low level you can make a case for heroes and demigods of legend being.
Nice way to ignore that Gandalf (aka, Olorin) is more than just a "level 6 sorcerer." He's a maiar (native outsider, because the ainur who entered Ea are bound within it), with an unknown number of racial hit dice, who also has levels in sorcerer; as was stated in the post.
Also, just because the balor demons are inspired by the balrog of Moria, don't assume that the literary balrog is as powerful as the versions presented in D&D/Pathfinder. In the thread that I originally posted these conversions, someone else speculated that the balrog of Moria could be represented by a vrock (CR 9) in a world using a level cap of 6 (maybe 8 for the elves) and still be as "impossible" to kill by anyone except another outsider (which Gandalf was) or possibly one of the most powerful of elves (but not with a good chance of success). So, if the balrog of Moria was CR 9 and Gandalf was a CR 9 outsider/sorcerer 6, then a close-fought battle (as described in the books) would be perfectly understandable, wouldn't it? And if there is a level limit (which would make sense considering that nothing described in the The Lord of the Rings done by the Fellowship is as powerful as what can be achieved by even a 10th-12th level D&D/Pathfinder character), then you don't need to assume a bunch of 15th to 20th characters running around that cause all sorts of issues with setting balance (many already discussed in this thread).
The thing is, d20/D&D 3.x/Pathfinder is designed so that characters over 5th level are the equivalent of "heroes of legend," exceeding the achievements of "the real world" (as modeled by game mechanics, at least). Once they get above 10th, they're effectively superheroes; above 15th, and they're effectively demigods.
I assume the literary version of the Balrog is significantly More powerful than the statted up and designed to be killable version in the game. It did after all wipe out the original Dwarven kingdom when they dug down to it.
In your write-up it wasn't at all clear whether your Istari was a racial hit die thing, or a standard player race.
It still lacks a fundemental respect for the source to stat up heroes as at best average adventurers. Since this thread is about whether common folk should be much in their own right, I guess it is in theme for the thread, it just isn't the side of the argument I agree with.
Since our basic assumptions disagree, we will just have to disagree.
Yes, the level 6 Sorceror defeated a Balrog in hand to hand combat.
Don't listen to me though, I have no love of trying to see how low level you can make a case for heroes and demigods of legend being.Since this was being done 40 years ago it won't ever go away.
If you mean Gandalf, lvl6 sorcerer is what he passed off for, but plz remember that he is first and foremost the maia Olorin and quite able to take on a balrog when unleashing his full abilities.
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A high level commoner is a guy who has seen some really crazy stuff... and not learned anything particularly valuable from it. He's survived multiple wars, been the hostage of many a villain, picked up some genuine combat skills (nothing specific, just he's better at aiming and tougher than your average peasant), but ultimately just wants to go back home and tend the crops. This isn't due to stupidity, just a lack of ambition.I can't say I like this definition of a high level commoner. They are weaker than any class of the same level, but they still gain plenty of hit points, feats, and skill points. Mechanically, they are far and beyond what regular people are realistically capable of (1st level NPC class).
I'm struggling to understand this.
The way I read this it says "I don't like high level commoners because commoners who have more than 1 level can do more than commoners with only 1 level", which seems rather tautological.
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Just leaving this here: my rant on commoners including lots of detail, Sean K Reynolds Theory on Peasants and lots of nice example builds.
IMO 1st level (N)PCs are children or adolescents. This is supported by the starting ages for PC classes. Level 1 commmoners have to be either very young or very inexperienced IMO. A level 1 warrior is a newbie recruit or the local school bully. ...
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Yes, the level 6 Sorceror defeated a Balrog in hand to hand combat.
Don't listen to me though, I have no love of trying to see how low level you can make a case for heroes and demigods of legend being.Since this was being done 40 years ago it won't ever go away.
Tolkien wasn't playing PF or D&D. This game does not map to Tolkien style high fantasy very well. People have tried though, you need to rewrite/houserule/tune the rules a lot to make it fit.
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This makes no sense to me because I see a thirty year old man and I assume he has seen some stuff he has been through a couple of jobs probably set in on a career a few years back. All in all he has experience. It is not Adventuring experience but that is why he levels up in the worst class in the game.
This is part of the problem. On Golarion, like most roleplaying worlds, life experience has nothing to do with how good you are. Look at the elves. A starting elven wizard can 170 years old and he knows less than the 17 year old human wizard. The ancient master's skills are limited by their level, not their age. This is not intuitive.
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Yes, the level 6 Sorceror defeated a Balrog in hand to hand combat.
Is that why Pathfinder keeps giving us melee options for Sorcerers?
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Given Gandalf's backstory, I think that in Pathfinder terms, he'd be much higher in level than the rest of the party - but intentionally hiding most of it because his role is more to guide and encourage others than do everything for them. XD
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A high level commoner is a guy who has seen some really crazy stuff... and not learned anything particularly valuable from it. He's survived multiple wars, been the hostage of many a villain, picked up some genuine combat skills (nothing specific, just he's better at aiming and tougher than your average peasant), but ultimately just wants to go back home and tend the crops. This isn't due to stupidity, just a lack of ambition.I can't say I like this definition of a high level commoner. They are weaker than any class of the same level, but they still gain plenty of hit points, feats, and skill points. Mechanically, they are far and beyond what regular people are realistically capable of (1st level NPC class).
I'm struggling to understand this.
The way I read this it says "I don't like high level commoners because commoners who have more than 1 level can do more than commoners with only 1 level", which seems rather tautological.
No. I was saying, from what I gathered from the other post, that high level commoners aren't just slightly more competent versions of your average person. It's not what the guy was saying so I guess it ultimately doesn't matter.
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I think this is a setting/playstyle issue. My general preference:
Most young adult common folk are 1st level commoners, though some are level 1 members of another NPC class.
Middle-aged common folk are 2nd level, or retrain to another NPC class representing development of a specific skill set, or both. Drafted into the militia? Level 1 warrior. Veteran in the guard? Level 2 warrior.
Elders or other exceptional people (leaders in a local community) hit level 3-5.
I deal with elves and dwarves and such by moving them up a rank in this development. A typical young elf or dwarf is a 1st level expert, warrior, or adept – or possibly a 2nd level commoner if they lack drive – and the elders and leaders tend to be in the level 5-7 range. I'm also somewhat more likely to stat out an elven elder as a wizard or dwarven elder as a cleric where a human elder would be an adept.
And as others noted, particularly dangerous regions have different rules. I've got one region where the typical young adult is a warrior 2.
Or that a mother can take ten on a heal check and manage to get a fifteen even though it is not a class skill? (basic dc for first aid as well as high enough to help deal with most common diseases.)
In PF context “provide first aid” is less “clean and bandage a scraped knee” and more “staunch arterial bleeding” which is not something I'd expect most mothers would be able to do reliably within 6 seconds.
But if I want to have a commoner who could do this I'd probably make one of their two first level feats Skill Focus (Heal) or even just give them a trait that gives them Heal as a class skill (NPCs can have traits, too). That gives them a +5 at level 1 with Wis 12, or at level 2 with Wis 10.
I'm also not averse to homebrewing traits or feats to give specialized bonuses to things like fishing a particular area.
How would you all write up Samwise Gamgee?
I'd start him off as a level 1 commoner with a good Wis and Con, Skill Focus (Gardening) and training in Profession (Cook). Probably spend his traits on increasing Fort and Will saves by +1. At the end of the adventure, I might give him level 3 commoner with at least one rank in Survival and Stealth, and the Endurance feat. Merry and Pippin saw more combat and probably made warrior 3. Frodo's an Expert. Please note: Sam is my favourite character in the entire books, but it's partly because of his “everyman” nature. He doesn't have a lot of skills, he never gets really good in combat (Shelob basically sits on his magic dagger), the most badass thing about him is that he just never gives up. Otherwise I pretty much agree with Dragonchess Player's evaluations.
I have been running campaigns for over thirty years now, and my players know to never assume everyone around them in my towns are 1st level or lower, even if they look like commoners.
Well, even if most people in towns are 1st level it's never a good idea to assume that everyone is.
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What are commoners?
Pretty much just bare skills and a single weapon, with absolutely no survivability.
What is a high level commoner?
The best damn farmer in Golarion! With a record-breaking wisdom of 11, and 20 ranks in Profession (Farmer), and assumed skill focus there is no plant he can't handle!
Watch him roll his earn for the week:
That works out to be 20 gold pieces, and five silver... And 20th level... And he can only afford a small apartment for monthly rent with a monthly income of 82 gold...
That's why there aren't high level commoners. It's just ridiculous.
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It may also be that there are plenty of 20th level farmers, it's just that on 20ish gold/week, what they do isn't that much more noteworthy to anybody else than what less accomplished farmers do.
But the other farmers know...
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How would you all write up Samwise Gamgee?
In LOTRO, he's the example character of a class known as the Guardian.
I'd probably set him up as an E6 mythic fighter with the guardian path.
There are a heck of a lot of people in Middle Earth who don't stand anywhere close to the combination of sheer fortitude and devotion that Samwise expresses. And he is accorded the status of a Ringbearer at the end.
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How would you all write up Samwise Gamgee?In LOTRO, he's the example character of a class known as the Guardian.
I'd probably set him up as an E6 mythic fighter with the guardian path.
There are a heck of a lot of people in Middle Earth who don't stand anywhere close to the combination of sheer fortitude and devotion that Samwise expresses. And he is accorded the status of a Ringbearer at the end.
yeah, I think the hobbits get a bad rap really. Sam is tough, Walked across the whole of the world.. and had weapons training from Aragorn and Boromir... He would started as a 1st level commoner but by the time they hit rivendale I'd figure him levled up in Fighter.
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What are commoners?
Pretty much just bare skills and a single weapon, with absolutely no survivability.
What is a high level commoner?
The best damn farmer in Golarion! With a record-breaking wisdom of 11, and 20 ranks in Profession (Farmer), and assumed skill focus there is no plant he can't handle!
Watch him roll his earn for the week: [dice=Profession (Farmer)]1d20 + 26
That works out to be 20 gold pieces, and five silver... And 20th level... And he can only afford a small apartment for monthly rent with a monthly income of 82 gold...
That's why there aren't high level commoners. It's just ridiculous.
You forgot the 123,000 gp in gear that a 20th level commoner has. Assuming he spends no more than 25% of his wealth on a single item, he can get a +17 hoe of hoeing for a mere 28,900 gp. If the GM is okay with custom items, of course.
Still, with that much total wealth, he probably owns his own place.
What are commoners?
Pretty much just bare skills and a single weapon, with absolutely no survivability.
What is a high level commoner?
The best damn farmer in Golarion! With a record-breaking wisdom of 11, and 20 ranks in Profession (Farmer), and assumed skill focus there is no plant he can't handle!
Watch him roll his earn for the week: [dice=Profession (Farmer)]1d20 + 26
That works out to be 20 gold pieces, and five silver... And 20th level... And he can only afford a small apartment for monthly rent with a monthly income of 82 gold...
That's why there aren't high level commoners. It's just ridiculous.
Maybe the Profession rules aren't to be applied to NPCs. It's ridiculous. By the Profession skill, a farmer has the same basic chance of income as a spice merchant, an architect or the steward of a strong lord. That ain't right, even if you keep your common folks low-level.
To me, there's a place for high-level commoners. Okay, maybe not 20 levels, but definitively more than 1.
»You know old man Vyncent? Lord Backwater couldn't wish for a better tenant, even if his foul-mouthed bailiff sometimes swears otherwise. I've never seen a better farmer than old man Vyncent. Just take a look at the shaft of that axe he always carries round. True craft! He knows the fields like his own pocket, not just his and the estate's, but the freemen’s parts too. Never have he broken a plough, even at Fey's Patch, that accursed excuse for a field. Knows where every stone is. And when he takes his tackle to the mill pond, he has hardly even arrived before he can go home with the biggest perch you'll see that month. Tough bastard he is, too. Survived the plague that killed half the village, thirty years ago. And once, a group of bandits arrived during the village market. Called them self 'adventurers'. Caused a lot of trouble when they wanted to execute our priest, said their magic showed he was evil. But old man Vyncent called out that they should be gone. So one of the bandits took as swing at Vyncent, hit him good in the shoulder with a nasty sword. Old man Vyncent went down, but was quickly on his feet again. Raised his axe, and just said 'be gone' with a whisper loud enough for the entire village to hear. Those bandits was shocked and just measly retreated, and that fall the priest said the gods blessed our fields and we've never had a better harvest.«
Old man Vyncent surely isn't a level 1 commoner, but he doesn’t have the broad skills of an expert or the combat prowess of a PC class. He's experienced at what he does, which doesn’t translate to increased wealth (he can't fish more perch from the pond that there is!) but, at best, some more free time. Which he dwindles away, because he's a commoner. A high level one.
Mark,
You aren't the only one who makes the bad comparison of a halfling to a child.
1) A child is a child, it's skeleto-musculature system is immature, and pound for pound not as strong as adult musculature.
2). A child is generally not as coordinated or experienced in fighting. Even a martial arts trained child has to deal with changes in balance, reach, etc as they grow.
3). An adult Halfling is an adult, it's body is built to be efficient at its size.
Daw wrote:
Mark,
You aren't the only one who makes the bad comparison of a halfling to a child.
1) A child is a child, it's skeleto-musculature system is immature, and pound for pound not as strong as adult musculature.
2). A child is generally not as coordinated or experienced in fighting. Even a martial arts trained child has to deal with changes in balance, reach, etc as they grow.
3). An adult Halfling is an adult, it's body is built to be efficient at its size.
I have to disagree with you there on a few points, yes intelligence is important in fighting but one of the main factors is the ability to use your strength and size against your opponent or use the opponents against them.If you read LOtR and JRRT various other material you should see that his thoughts on the matter were hobbits were designed/good at eating and drinking and not designed for physical violence. That does not mean that they could not hit you in the right spot and kill you but it does mean that in his mind they were designed as inferior fighters and the fact that people often did not think they could do something was their main strength.
I also know quite a few people who were much more effective fighters at the age of 15 than there were at 22 or later in life.
MDC
I never cited intelligence, I cited experience, not the same thing.
Disagree with your interpretation of JRRT re hobbits, hobbits, per The Hobbit are clever with their hands and secretive around tall folk. Per LotR, Gandalf was always amazed by the toughness and resilience of hobbits. They aren't warlike, and are slow to anger. Remember that that Hobbits, without help from humans, elves or dwarves purged the Shire of the minions of the Chief Istari, Saruman.
Done with this size-ist departure from the thread though, it won't go anywhere, at a pre-logical level.
Because I consider the whole idea of upper level commoners absurd. If they're that exposed to something that would give them levels, they've made the transfer to adventurer and should be retrained into an appropriate class.
I see nothing wrong with a level 20 commoner. Say base stat 10, their skill in animal handling would be a class skills. So they'd have +23 to do their thing and they'd still struggle to hit a DC 40 but could take 20 and get the job done. This would be highly skilled commoner. Simple as that. Not really absurd to me.
I think the issue for me is that if you put in the time to seriously learn and get good at something, then at the very least, you'd probably be retraining into Expert. I see Commoners as those who generally don't have an advanced degree of training in any field - apprentice/entry-level stuff, basically, which just doesn't mesh well with higher levels.
Because I consider the whole idea of upper level commoners absurd. If they're that exposed to something that would give them levels, they've made the transfer to adventurer and should be retrained into an appropriate class.I see nothing wrong with a level 20 commoner. Say base stat 10, their skill in animal handling would be a class skills. So they'd have +23 to do their thing and they'd still struggle to hit a DC 40 but could take 20 and get the job done. This would be highly skilled commoner. Simple as that. Not really absurd to me.
You and I have different viewpoints. I can not see anyone who goes through what must be gone through to reach high level, and remaining in ANY of the NPC classes, but most especially, commoner. You do not reach 20th level by plowing fields alone.... You don't even make 4th.
You and I have different viewpoints. I can not see anyone who goes through what must be gone through to reach high level, and remaining in ANY of the NPC classes, but most especially, commoner. You do not reach 20th level by plowing fields alone.... You don't even make 4th.Because I consider the whole idea of upper level commoners absurd. If they're that exposed to something that would give them levels, they've made the transfer to adventurer and should be retrained into an appropriate class.I see nothing wrong with a level 20 commoner. Say base stat 10, their skill in animal handling would be a class skills. So they'd have +23 to do their thing and they'd still struggle to hit a DC 40 but could take 20 and get the job done. This would be highly skilled commoner. Simple as that. Not really absurd to me.
Who says it has to be just by plowing fields? There may be some other events in there that don't fundamentally change his class. Perhaps a stint defending the walls of the town during the goblin siege, maybe a few bad winters when the wolves were howling at the doors (and needing to be fought off), a few infestations of ankhegs, and so on.
I agree that 20th level is a bit of a stretch, but 8th-10th level or so seems within reach to me for a commoner in a relatively insecure place where lots of challenges arise.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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We could come up with convoluted reasons if we want. Could be fun.
Moe the farmer is a 20th level commoner. See, three thousand years ago, Moe accidentally pissed off a passing fey lord, as tends to happen in these kinds of stories. Moe was then cursed with immortality, but never to rise above his current means or station. Moe's learned a lot about farming in the millennia since his curse, but he never can seem to get the knack of anything else.
*Tosses popcorn into mouth*
Okay, that's a situation I could accept as creating a high-level commoner. XD It doesn't do anything to explain how a normal Commoner might rise to higher levels, but at least for one of them, it works.
My take: Commoners and all of the NPC classes can range in level, and absolutely do. Just check any of our adventures pretty much for plenty of examples.
That said, they almost NEVER go above 5th level. When they do, it's for unique and unusual and specific story reasons. For example, I made a shopkeeper in Burnt Offerings a 7th level commoner to catch players off guard for assuming that he'd be a pushover in a fist-fight, but also to model the fact that he's got an uncommon drive to be a grocer, but not enough drive to be anything MORE than a grocer.
I'm late to the party, and the list isn't comprehensive by any stretch, but here's what we track so far on PathfinderWiki by level. By definition, these are in setting content only, and doesn't include setting-neutral books like the NPC Codex:
1st: 15
- Ol' Mam Grottle also has a level in Fighter. All three 4th-level commoners we track are innkeepers.
- Our one 5th-level commoner, Miss Feathers, is a prostitute in Kaer Maga.
- Dahnakrist Phi also has 3 levels in Bard. The split has some story background, as he was a slave before he became an official.
- Cesca mayor Kernin Sapualo is in Rule of Fear.
- That's James's mighty grocer, Ven Vinder.
There's one mighty commoner in the wiki who stands above even mighty Ven, however:
- Ohmun Kotem of Wati, in The Half-Dead City. His 8 levels of commoner, with no other class levels, must mean that making dye from giant crawfish is effin' hard.
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There are a heck of a lot of people in Middle Earth who don't stand anywhere close to the combination of sheer fortitude and devotion that Samwise expresses.
Absolutely true. However, that doesn't require a whole lot of class levels. An unusually good Con and Wis, plus the Endurance feat and a trait or two to improve Fort and/or Will saves would go most of the way - probably combined with some racial bonuses because:
Disagree with your interpretation of JRRT re hobbits, hobbits, per The Hobbit are clever with their hands and secretive around tall folk. Per LotR, Gandalf was always amazed by the toughness and resilience of hobbits.
Given that the races seem more distinct in LotR than PF I wouldn't be surprised if there were some sizable racial bonuses to things that the hobbits are shown to be good at like Fort saves, Will saves, ranged attacks, stealth, etc.
If you think Hobbits get a bad rap, then you have not seen them in Iron Crowns MERP and I would love to see my 45 and 70 lb nephews hit and do damage very close to a normal sized human.
In general the math/physics does not back up how powerful they are generally represented in most games.MDC
Nope, never heard of Iron Crowns...
I guess that depends on what classes you play. A 45 to 70 pound child with razor sharp blade can kill pretty easy. Damage in RPGs are pretty abstract, but really... a good piercing weapon only takes a couple pounds of pressure to kill someone. The iconic hobbits aren't really the type to go crazy sundering armor and ripping doors off the wall, but a well placed strike in an armor chink can be done by pretty much anyone with some knowledge. If you describe epic damage as 'punctured lung', then I don't have any problem stretching my imagination to that.
We could come up with convoluted reasons if we want. Could be fun.
Moe the farmer is a 20th level commoner. See, three thousand years ago, Moe accidentally pissed off a passing fey lord, as tends to happen in these kinds of stories. Moe was then cursed with immortality, but never to rise above his current means or station. Moe's learned a lot about farming in the millennia since his curse, but he never can seem to get the knack of anything else.
*Tosses popcorn into mouth*
Okay, that's a situation I could accept as creating a high-level commoner. XD It doesn't do anything to explain how a normal Commoner might rise to higher levels, but at least for one of them, it works.
A normal level 20 character? Is there any? Of any class?
I'm late to the party, and the list isn't comprehensive by any stretch, but here's what we track so far on PathfinderWiki by level. By definition, these are in setting content only, and doesn't include setting-neutral books like the NPC Codex:
Found a second level 8 commoner:
Also, some more level 6 commoners: