Risky Striker gives a penalty to AC not attack bonus. Also, rather than working only on Large+ it works on anything two sizes larger than the halfling using it - q.v. The Songbird of Doom.Stamina fixes that.
Small update- armor, shields, and special materials are done.
Working on alchemical items then I'll tackle magic items.
Special note on alchemicals Opportunist Fighter Keeps WT but delayed, but has some options that could raise the rating on some of em.
Halfling sling opportunist fighter using slipslinger style slinging alchemical items?
Thats pretty sexy, and by sexy i mean full attacking with alchemical items is probably going to get expensive quick.
Healer's Handbook is out, expect big updates.
I plan on having an archetypes and VMC section in v1.0, once I get to v2.0 I'll go more in depth into multiclassing.
The Opportunist is getting a little bit more love than I planned as I'm gonna do a full breakdown of alchemical weapons and items as part of the mundane items section, after that I can finally get to magic items which will be another large content area of the guide.
Then archetypes/VMC.
Then I can get to strategies/builds.
There's a feat from faiths and philosophies you should check out. Look up Animal Ally. It has a feat tax that is one of those +2 to two skills feats, but it gives you a ranger AC (limited list, level-3 effective Druid level). That makes both the Dragoon and Roughrider archetypes much more viable, and is honestly just plain good, period.
On a related note, you may want to mention that there are animal companion archetypes, and since fighters don't have spells to share the archetypes might actually be worth it.
One thing to keep in mind is to look VERY carefully at which archetypes actually replace weapon training versus just modifying it, because it matters where AWT and gloves of dueling are concerned. Two examples are the Dragoon and the Two Handed Fighter. The THF weapon training modifies it so the weapon training only works on two handed weapons, but otherwise work as normal. The Dragoon still gets weapon training 1 that must be a specific group, even though the damage bonus is slightly modified AND they don't get WT 2 through 4. That means the Dragoon qualifies for the AWT feat even though they don't get to get other weapon groups to replace with AWT. The implementation of AWT has had a major impact on how good the archetypes are. I suppose someone could argue the same is true for Advanced Armor Training, but the benefits from AAT are not quite as good as AWT, so you lose less in the bargain.
Note: I would link directly to the Animal Ally feat, but I'm typing this on my phone. Sorry.
Zelda has stolen my life, I'll get back to writing this soon. The last few PC releases thankfully haven't had a lot to worry about fighter-wise.
I only just found this guide today. Fantastic work.
Great guide so far:
Biggest critique at a glance is with regards to shield bash as a style:
I'm not part of the crowd that advocates using two shields either - to me that's just silly.
But, I saw your comments on shield master in this thread: and went into the guide to assess your views in detail: and didn't really get any. The shield bash line is completely absent, as far as I can see? no ratings - no mention.
I'd like to provide you some rebuttal on the shield master comments, but it's a bit difficult to do, as you've skipped shield bashing as a style entirely. Shield Bashing also rates light shields higher than heavy, generally: which your guide disagrees with pretty strongly.
Even if you considered it better with brawler/ranger, that's not a reason to avoid doing a rating, right?
Great guide so far:
Biggest critique at a glance is with regards to shield bash as a style:
I'm not part of the crowd that advocates using two shields either - to me that's just silly.
But, I saw your comments on shield master in this thread: and went into the guide to assess your views in detail: and didn't really get any. The shield bash line is completely absent, as far as I can see? no ratings - no mention.
I'd like to provide you some rebuttal on the shield master comments, but it's a bit difficult to do, as you've skipped shield bashing as a style entirely. Shield Bashing also rates light shields higher than heavy, generally: which your guide disagrees with pretty strongly.
Even if you considered it better with brawler/ranger, that's not a reason to avoid doing a rating, right?
As far as the guide's general rhetoric goes, if something is done so much better by another class that it invalidates the fighter being able to take it, then I don;t even consider it in the guide because you are better off playing one of those classes if that's the style you want to play.
Shield Bashing in general (especially with Shield Master) is something that usually falls under Two-Weapon Fighting, which I loathe. Otherwise using a shield as a primary one or two-handed weapon is categorized as the Power Turtle, and I've added this language to it's description and added Improved Shield Bash to the Combat Specialization Feats by Role section.
Thanks for the heads up.
There's a feat from faiths and philosophies you should check out. Look up Animal Ally. It has a feat tax that is one of those +2 to two skills feats, but it gives you a ranger AC (limited list, level-3 effective Druid level). That makes both the Dragoon and Roughrider archetypes much more viable, and is honestly just plain good, period.
On a related note, you may want to mention that there are animal companion archetypes, and since fighters don't have spells to share the archetypes might actually be worth it.
One thing to keep in mind is to look VERY carefully at which archetypes actually replace weapon training versus just modifying it, because it matters where AWT and gloves of dueling are concerned. Two examples are the Dragoon and the Two Handed Fighter. The THF weapon training modifies it so the weapon training only works on two handed weapons, but otherwise work as normal. The Dragoon still gets weapon training 1 that must be a specific group, even though the damage bonus is slightly modified AND they don't get WT 2 through 4. That means the Dragoon qualifies for the AWT feat even though they don't get to get other weapon groups to replace with AWT. The implementation of AWT has had a major impact on how good the archetypes are. I suppose someone could argue the same is true for Advanced Armor Training, but the benefits from AAT are not quite as good as AWT, so you lose less in the bargain.
Note: I would link directly to the Animal Ally feat, but I'm typing this on my phone. Sorry.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
An entire character concept is opened up by this for PFS players who want a fighter that can use the Hunter's niche.
Nice find!!!!
To correct an error in the guide: the Difficult Swings weapon mastery feat functions only for your adjacent squares rather than all squares you threaten. This makes it significantly less awesome, though still fairly functional.
Also some comments on various feats and areas where I think your ratings are very far off:
In general I feel like many of your ratings are very optimistic, but I think the guide as a whole is really solid with a LOT of good advice. Your comments about combat stamina probably won't matter in a lot of peoples games, but they're very good to have for people that do use it. I'm also happy to see barroom brawler + abundant tactics getting the recommendation it deserves.
Ok well I'll probably wait to critique the shield bash stuff until after I see the builds section.
If I can make a shieldbash build i consider to be valid/competitive then, I'll bounce it off you. Until then I don't want to distract you from your good work :)
Here are my thoughts on the rest of the guide - haven't gone all the way through yet, but here's thus far:
----------
- Skills section could use a call-out about Versatile Training (advanced armor training). It is mentioned elsewhere in the guide, but having it in the skills section itself would be good.
- Intimidate is purple, charisma is red - while I get how this happens, it's worth noting the exceptions. Consider some mr personality/intimidate/dazzling display caveats for the CHA entry, and perhaps an eldritch heritage mention.
- Craft (int) might be worth mentioning master armorer (advanced armor training)
- Background skills: Might be worth further differentiating lore etc as skills from unchained. It's confusing for those that don't run them as default: I saw the entry and thought "whats that?"
- Advanced weapon training: Consider rewording, you say it comes online at 9th, but then follow up with available at lvl 5 as a feat: swap the order perhaps? feels roundabout.
- Fighter's reflexes: light blue, in my opinion - not that you're using that colour, but it's borderline purple. I'll agree that armed bravery trumps it - but armed bravery is freakin amazing.
- Weapon Mastery: Green in my opinion: it clashes with armed bravery, fighter's reflexes, focused weapon, trained grace for some builds, the list goes on. Weapon training is at a higher premium than armor training, unless you're already doing godly DPS and you tend to run out of this long before weapon mastery might crop up.
- Advanced Armor training: as Advanced weapon training, saying "available at 7" and then saying you can also take it at 3 with a feat is a little roundabout. Consider swapping the order to "available at 3 with a feat and then at 7 without when you gain armor training 2" or somesuch
- Armored Juggernaut: this really stacks up when you have adamantine full plate: but if you're going for mithral full plate + dex as some do, you're comparing DR 6/- with DR 2/- and it's more of a thinking point.
- Believer's Boon: I believe this is limited to 1 rd/day: might be sub-green instead of blue. This also devalues Believer's hands, somewhat, maybe? unless I'm misreading.
- Cunning: looked this up on d20pfsrd, it's listed as "forgotten core feats" 3pp, not villain codex? perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place.
- Diehard: Mention unbreakable here, maybe? not that Fighter Archetypes are that great any more.
- Endurance: Mention unbreakable here, again, maybe - ehhhh.
- Extra Lay on Hands: You mention VMC Cavalier here, did you mean Paladin?
- Great Fortitude: Fort saves are the only save that doesn't have armed bravery or fighter's reflexes, so that's worth bearing in mind, if you're going to rate it lower than iron will/lightning reflexes. It's easy enough to outpace fort now, with the new toys.
- One Eye open: I've seen campaigns that this would get some use, and some where it would get none - i think blue might be a tad high a rating: seems more green to me.
- Racial Heritage (Human): you name shatterspell backwards, calling it spellshatter.
- Scale and skin: you rate this blue, but ironhide as green. That's a little bit dubious in my opinion. I can see it being situationally better than ironhide, later, but pre level 10 its worse.
- Arcing lob: does this need to refer to the ratfolk build you mention in other places? (you rate this as red because fighters dont do splash, then splash weapon mastery as purple - might need a revision/clarification for consistency)
- Stalwart & Improved Stalwart: I always read it as not stacking, so possibly red if that was the case.
- Just out of reach: typo "faet"
- Weapon Trick: I'm not really sure how dual strike is much better than basic vital strike, but I guess you can get 2x weapon spec, weapon training and weapon procs out of it. I still don't see that as necessary, but perhaps I'm missing something - perhaps more explanation is in order? I'm curious :)
- Defensive weapon training: without stamina, this is green/orange to me: blue puts it on par with dodge, which I'm kinda dubious about. (EDIT: also its REALLY annoying that there's an advanced weapon training option with the exact same name as the feat)
- Combat Expertise: The ever hated feat! I look at this in the following way: is it power attack? no. Is it weapon focus? no. But don't compare it to staples/must haves. How's it look against greens? Does it compare that badly vs shield specialization, for example? I think most people rage at this because of the power attack comparison, rather than judging it on its own merits. I still rate it as pretty meh, just not red. If you were using orange however... ;)
That's as far down as I've gotten so far, will probably provide more later on if you think it's helpful :)
My feat ratings are based on 2 assumptions that the guide prepares you for:
1- not all feats are permanent choices. This is covered pretty extensively in the sections that talk about the fighters feat retraining class feature which is often ignored by most guides. And I even tell you what level range to keep Second Chance for. I have adjusted the ratings a little to reflect your opinions, but keep in mind that Second chance can be trained out of at 12th level for free when it stops being useful. The thing about it is that it isn't always on, it's only on when you need it to be.
2- thanks to barroom brawler, even the feats that are just situational can become much more useful and worth looking into because you can gain them temporarily in those niche scenarios. This is where Stunning Irruption comes in, I'll note that it's a Barroom Brawler kind of thing in the description.
Dwarven Hatred Style is based on your hatred, of which there are some choices thanks to the alternate racial traits. They're rated high because improve attack and defense, but I will concede they belong blue, and Weapon Focus had already been changed to purple some time in the interim between our posts.
I should include the fact that Take the Hit's rating in my mind was always assuming that you're using a familiar to reduce overall damage. Brain Fart.
Two-Weapon Grace is purple because it allows you to have something in the off-hand and still use Slashing/Starry/Fencing Grace with one hand and it doesn't have to apply to TWF, Not because Two-Weapon fighting with it is a good idea. I'll be sure to clarify that more.
Thanks for the input, I've made adjustments accordingly.
Ok well I'll probably wait to critique the shield bash stuff until after I see the builds section.
If I can make a shieldbash build i consider to be valid/competitive then, I'll bounce it off you. Until then I don't want to distract you from your good work :)
Here are my thoughts on the rest of the guide - haven't gone all the way through yet, but here's thus far:
----------
...
- Skills section could use a call-out about Versatile Training (advanced armor training). It is mentioned elsewhere in the guide, but having it in the skills section itself would be good.
- Intimidate is purple, charisma is red - while I get how this happens, it's worth noting the exceptions. Consider some mr personality/intimidate/dazzling display caveats for the CHA entry, and perhaps an eldritch heritage mention.
- Craft (int) might be worth mentioning master armorer (advanced armor training)
- Background skills: Might be worth further differentiating lore etc as skills from unchained. It's confusing for those that don't run them as default: I saw the entry and thought "whats that?"
- Advanced weapon training: Consider rewording, you say it comes online at 9th, but then follow up with available at lvl 5 as a feat: swap the order perhaps? feels roundabout.
- Fighter's reflexes: light blue, in my opinion - not that you're using that colour, but it's borderline purple. I'll agree that armed bravery trumps it - but armed bravery is freakin amazing.
- Weapon Mastery: Green in my opinion: it clashes with armed bravery, fighter's reflexes, focused weapon, trained grace for some builds, the list goes on. Weapon training is at a higher premium than armor training, unless you're already doing godly DPS and you tend to run out of this long before weapon mastery might crop up.
- Advanced Armor training: as Advanced weapon training, saying "available at 7" and then saying you can also take it at 3 with a feat is a little roundabout. Consider swapping the order to "available at 3 with a feat and
I need to ask if the toggle outline is showing up for people, as I want to make sure you can navigate it properly. I go through the class features pretty early so mentions of versatile training and things of that nature I feel need to stick to their respective sections.
Believer's Hands and VMC Cavalier (Order of the Stars) treat your paladin level progression as full, which is better than VMC paladin on its own, plus Challenge is only at level -2. I'll cover it more extensively once equipment is done and I can get to builds and multiclassing sections. Extra Lay on Hands in this case is just better.
Remember, feats that only seem to be situationally useful are rated highly because Barroom Brawler exists to grab those feats in those situations. Defensive Weapon Training is such a feat. Hopefully I have enough notations in the feats that work better for Barroom Brawler access to notice this. Should I include another notation like the Stamina notes?
I have yet to find any of the Villain Codex material on the d20pfsrd. I am using my own pdfs for a lot of this.
The outline as in the bar on the side with navigation? yes, that's working.
----
on Doubling up on info:
People often cherry-pick-read these guides, so I don't see brief mentions of relevant topics that are repeated here and there to be bad.
If a person checks your skill section and sees no mention of versatile training, they might never know about it if all they wanted to read about was fighter skills :P
on Barroom Brawler:
I'm largely not a fan of Barroom brawler (and martial flexibility) from a mechanics perspective, so my opinion is going to be biased: But I'd honestly recommend leaving it out of the feat ratings, and writing up a section with a list of great Barroom brawler options as a separate deal.
If you consider it to be 100% integral to the class and a no brainer, I can see why you'd want to adapt the whole guide to it, I guess (i mean, I feel that way about advanced weapon/armor training, so no judgement :))
But in a hypothetical situation where I didn't object to Barroom Brawler: feats that were valid picks-on-the-fly would have less rating when it came to building a character, permanent-feat-wise.
So it might actually be slightly backwards to integrate them into the base rating - perhaps?
Its late here so my logic is probably going all crazy :P
on Cavalier VMC:
I'm super sleepy so I'm probably just confused but Cavalier VMC doesnt get lay on hands at all, and doesnt get paladin levels at all either. Unless there's some wacky interaction with something I'm missing?
I genuinely assumed cavalier was a typo and you just meant paladin.
---
Anyways - off to bed for me. Critiques and suggestions aside - i think you're doing a very good job :P
Finished alchemical weapons, and I'm working on magic weapon abilities as we speak.
I need a better compiled list of them, since d20PFSRD seems to only list the UE ones (as far as I've seen).
I also need help with the PFS stuff.
Archives of Nethys are up to date now, I believe.
I'm surprised you gave the advanced weapon training Effortless Dual Wielding a purple rating. Isn't it a lot worse than Focused Weapon? I mean, why upgrade your short swords to long swords when you can just use 2d6 damage short swords?
Archives of Nethys are up to date now, I believe.
They are in much better shape, but they are still not fully caught up yet.
I'm surprised you gave the advanced weapon training Effortless Dual Wielding a purple rating. Isn't it a lot worse than Focused Weapon? I mean, why upgrade your short swords to long swords when you can just use 2d6 damage short swords?
Because it opens up high crit range weapons like the scimitar without requiring Exotic Proficiency mostly.
I'm surprised you gave the advanced weapon training Effortless Dual Wielding a purple rating. Isn't it a lot worse than Focused Weapon? I mean, why upgrade your short swords to long swords when you can just use 2d6 damage short swords?Because it opens up high crit range weapons like the scimitar without requiring Exotic Proficiency mostly.
Why wouldn't you use kukris instead? Or if you really want the damage dice boost, take Exotic Proficiency and get the 18-20/x2 wakizashi (and it has deadly too).
I mean, more ways of accomplishing the same thing is good, but out of all the four obvious options of getting a high crit range weapon with better damage (exotic weapon proficiency, Effortless DW, Weapon Specialization and Focused Weapon), Effortless Dual Wielding is pretty much the worst (+1 damage, and uses up an Advanced Weapon Training slot instead of just a normal feat/combat feat). The only thing going for it is that it is the least restrictive (doesn't restrict you to only 1 weapon*, doesn't require a specific exotic weapon that does what a martial one handed weapon does, doesn't require weapon focus). If none of those things matter, then it is an inferior choice to pretty much everything else. The only time you would want to take it is if you were stacking options (dual falcatas or whips, for example).
*which means nothing if you are crit fishing, since you almost certainly want improved critical or a Keen weapon, which locks you into a specific weapon anyway.
I just wanted to say thanks for putting this together, and mention that all the work you're doing in relation to barroom brawler not only benefits fighters and brawlers, but also anyone with access to the war domain, so it's pretty widely applicable!
It's too bad advanced armor training doesn't have a warrior spirit equivalent, because from a brief stint playing a mythic character with mythic magic vestment, let me tell you, there are plenty of shenanigans to be had there!
I'm surprised you gave the advanced weapon training Effortless Dual Wielding a purple rating. Isn't it a lot worse than Focused Weapon? I mean, why upgrade your short swords to long swords when you can just use 2d6 damage short swords?Because it opens up high crit range weapons like the scimitar without requiring Exotic Proficiency mostly.
And it works with shields, upping sword+board's stock.
Yeah, I don't know why I said short swords, kukris are 18-20 light martial crit weapons, and the damage dice are negligible if you're taking focused weapon anyway...
Hadn't thought of the shield thing though. I guess that makes sense if you want to use a heavy shield.
Between Player Companions, Adventurer's Guide, and the stuff that's already not finished I'll have a big update to work on the next few weeks.
Looking to get back to adding to this somewhat on the regular to keep up with releases as they come out.
it's my problems or there were some exemples of builds?
Various advices:
1. Purple is perhaps slightly overused. For instance, BAB is purple. Weapons and Armor are purple. Etc.
...maybe it's just me, but when I read a guide, purple should be reserved for options that are not only great, but step into arguably overpowered. (In that context, BAB and equipment proficiencies are good, but neither will ever have the table going "Wow!". So, blue is the better color choice.
Roles in Combat
<snip>
BFW (STR) <color purple> - This is the most straightforward role that most players jump right at. Typically you have a greatsword, earthbreaker, or other big two-hander and go to town smashing, chopping, or stabbing your enemies....
2. Dial down acronyms. "BSF" I think most of us know is a "big, stupid fighters", but what is a BFW? I had to think about that for a few minutes before "big effing weapon" dawned on me, but before that, I was like, "I wonder if Urban Dictionary will be helpful?" (It wasn't.)
2. Consideration of multiclassing. - Most guides are written with straight-classing in mind. But martial characters are frequently (I hesitate to say mostly) multiclassed. Example:
Two-Weapons (STR & DEX)- yuuuuuuck. Two weapons can work, to be sure, but not very well in practice. Your lack of mobility will be your Achilles heel...
If mobility is the determinant criteria, then all fighter archetypes should be red compared to mounted cavaliers and paladins, or pouncing barbarians. "You do +6 damage with your gloves at 20th? That's nice. I do +80 with my lance Uber Charging!"
On the other hand, the swashbuckler, rogue, or ninja with high threat-range light weapons have hard reasons not to dip a few levels of fighter for the feats, if not three in the Weapon Master archetype (which is a lot better now given rulings concerning Advanced Weapon Training).
These are especially viable in the "below teens level" gaming environment, especially module-driven adventures such as PFS, in which the majority of encounters are in locations that can be traversed within a move or two. Potions of Long Arm and Enlarge increase reach considerably, increasing the frequency at which full-attacks can be secured.
3. Skills. - The guide overrates the importance of many of these in a beatstick character. Perception, for instance. Your human fighter's chances of spotting anything "built for stealth" steadily diminish, even with max ranks. In the end, he's better off multiclassing a few levels of barbarian for Uncanny Dodge just so he's not surprised. And then there's Bluff and Intimidate. Yes, these can secure extra attacks and debuff some opponents, but require feat-chain investments to deliver the goods, as well as not relegating CHA to the dump position (unless further feat and item investment).
Knowledge (dungeoneering) is the fighter's "purple" skill: it's class, he can usually make the check, and it let's him know right away which of his many weapons is the right tool for the job. Acrobatics is important, but it's not purple (which, to me, means "keep maxed").
4. Races. - Dwarves should be purple. Why? Because dwarves are purple at just about everything that isn't bard, swashbuckler, or paladin. They're the race most likely to beat the save when the monster lands its "you suck now" ability in melee.
5. Weapon Feats: - the guide currently has Weapon Focus (and GWF) as purple. In my opinion, they're blue. Why? Because a fighter is typically called upon to use many different weapons. Additionally, his attack bonus will quickly become absurd to the point that an additional +1 to help a -10 iterative land is a waste of feat resources. Quick Draw should be purple for any two-handed concept that intends to use a shield and doesn't want a buckler's -1 penalty dogging their style. (Not when quickdraw shields can be deployed as a free action.) Barroom Brawler is green. It's not bad in concept, but that move-action requirement is a deal-breaker at the beginning of combat. Too many things need that move-action economy slot, anything from drinking a potion (Accelerated Drinker) to drawing your weapon. Beyond tenth level it'll turn blue.Combat Reflexes should be the purplest combat feat in all of purpledom for fighters, a class with enough feat slots to splurge on multiple Greater maneuver chains and teamwork feats to spam attacks of opportunity. When you're unloading 50+ with your main attack, any mechanics that let you encore are the most royal of purple. Bladed Brush shouldn't be purple. After five or so feats devoted to making it work, you can dex-fight with an average polearm (glaive) and have higher AC than the strength-based Power Attacker. But if the 2hPA guy takes Dodge, Shield Focus, and Combat Expertise, he's right there with you and has saved two feats, and doesn't have to worry about any further nerfage.
...that's all for now.
Various advices:
1. Purple is perhaps slightly overused. For instance, BAB is purple. Weapons and Armor are purple. Etc.
...maybe it's just me, but when I read a guide, purple should be reserved for options that are not only great, but step into arguably overpowered. (In that context, BAB and equipment proficiencies are good, but neither will ever have the table going "Wow!". So, blue is the better color choice.
Roles in Combat
<snip>
BFW (STR) <color purple> - This is the most straightforward role that most players jump right at. Typically you have a greatsword, earthbreaker, or other big two-hander and go to town smashing, chopping, or stabbing your enemies....2. Dial down acronyms. "BSF" I think most of us know is a "big, stupid fighters", but what is a BFW? I had to think about that for a few minutes before "big effing weapon" dawned on me, but before that, I was like, "I wonder if Urban Dictionary will be helpful?" (It wasn't.)
2. Consideration of multiclassing. - Most guides are written with straight-classing in mind. But martial characters are frequently (I hesitate to say mostly) multiclassed. Example:
Two-Weapons (STR & DEX)- yuuuuuuck. Two weapons can work, to be sure, but not very well in practice. Your lack of mobility will be your Achilles heel...If mobility is the determinant criteria, then all fighter archetypes should be red compared to mounted cavaliers and paladins, or pouncing barbarians. "You do +6 damage with your gloves at 20th? That's nice. I do +80 with my lance Uber Charging!"
On the other hand, the swashbuckler, rogue, or ninja with high threat-range light weapons have hard reasons not to dip a few levels of fighter for the feats, if not three in the Weapon Master archetype (which is a lot better now given rulings concerning Advanced Weapon Training).
These are especially viable in the "below teens level" gaming environment, especially module-driven adventures such...
1. Purple may be considered overused, but how are you going to get better than full BAB for me to compare a blue rating to? How do you get better than all martial weapons and all armor (including tower shields, which is exclusive to the fighter)? It's purple because it's the best option compared to say, multiclassing into something with lower BAB and still wanting to consider yourself a fighter or a martial character in general. My rating system is explained in the first section, as blue options are optimal, but purple options are so good, you need to have a reason not to take it for the respective build; i.e. if you are considering it then it's probably part of your build. This is also elaborated on in each entry, usually with different roles disambiguating different color ratings.
2a. what acronyms am I using other than BFW? Also I explain what the role is immediately following it. It seems like you're critiquing this as you read it and not after the fact, which is fine, just an observation.
2b. As the guide hasn't gotten into the specifics of multiclassing, I may include a section that covers different kinds of dips and for how many levels and for what purposes. Good advice, I may write that into the multiclassing section.
3. Skills matter for more things than combat, and this guide attempts to be inclusive of different roles out of combat in ways that are not intrusive to your chosen combat role. For characters that are investing in these skills, it's usually worth it to invest fully, especially since Perception is the skill that replaced Search for loot, and all the party face skills have DCs that scale off opposed hit dice.
4. Dwarf should be purple, changed.
5. To-hit is your most important stat. Period. Barroom Brawler gives you versatility, which is more than not worth the move action. Also Stamina makes it a swift action. A two-hander that wants to use a shield should probably use a Nodachi with Shield Brace and a mithral shield. Better armor, no penalties. There's more benefits to being based off DEX than a couple of arbitrary numbers added to AC. Higher reflex saves and more ability versatility are important options that the fighter has.
Fighters are capable of a great number of things, not just great numbers. That's the point of the guide. Your view on the guide seems to come specifically from a combat optimization standpoint, which narrows what the fighter is really capable of with all its new toys.
So, remember that time a few months ago when I said all my spare time had gotten stolen away from me by Nintendo.
Well, my Master Mode now sits at 100.00%
I've got some reading to do. I'm thinking about dedicating a section to a bibliography, for my sake and for the readers.
So, shall we start going over the books and feats that have come out? Am I missing a lot from stuff like the Adventurer's Guide? I need to read.......
To-hit is your most important stat. Period. Barroom Brawler gives you versatility, which is more than not worth the move action.
Dip a level of barbarian (Savage Technologist + Drunken Brute) -- It's like getting free Accelerated Drinker, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, and Owl's Wisdom every time you get mad, and the bonuses will stack with those potions if ya got 'em. And you don't even suffer the usual dumped AC and sudden-death syndromes that often plague barbarians.
Attack bonus for barbarian/fighter martials rapidly blows up to the point they're hitting on 4s, 3s, and 2s. Being at or over +30 by 12th is not difficult.
Weapon Focus is a tax feat hogging room that far better material could be in (like Extra Rage for that barb dip level), and in the upper game saving throws, and the ability to actually engage an opponent, are more important. (My archery builds wouldn't take it at all if it weren't required for Snap Shot, and they are builds that use a single weapon almost exclusively.)
It's the sort of thing a fighter might have at 1st level in his bonus slot and then retrain to Martial Focus or something else later.
Weapon Focus is a prerequisite for a LOT.
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Weapon Focus is a prerequisite for a LOT.
Of course, but that doesn't make it innately good. It makes it a tax. (On the archery side of things, we're looking at Point-Blank Shot, which seems better than Weapon Focus, but is actually worse because most things you shoot with a bow are farther than 30' away, at which point it's worthless, and the player is annoyed at having to remember a situational bonus.)
Weapon Focus actually a better feat for a 3/4th BAB class in combat roles (e.g., Crusader Clerics, Warpriests, melee rogues, etc). You can always tell a tax feat by the willingness of Paizo to give it away for free in certain classes and make it available to others with quasi-feat-like abilities (such as rogue talents).
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Here's an example of something I see all the time in new martial melee characters:
(human barbarian or any-race fighter)
1st level feats: Weapon Focus (two-hander sword), Power Attack.
...these two feats together generate attack+0/damage+(2or3)
A non-exhaustive list of the mistakes being made:
- Almost everything you fight at 1st level has less than 10 hit points, except the boss. You don't need the +3. You just need to hit. But there are other considerations as well, such as not being hit.
- no defensive mechanisms while at baby-level hitpoints
- and of course, a +1 or +1.5 damage average gain is a very poor return on the investment of 100% of your starting feats.
Comparisons:
1st level feats in a barbarian: Extra Rage, Combat Reflexes
- This guy fights with a polearm. Has probably three attacks of opportunity, is att+2/dmg+3 while raging, utterly destroys low-level "party vs. party" type encounters by mowing down opponents who have to give him a free whack in order to advance through his threatened zones. He's basically a mobile AoE.
1st level feats in a sword-n-board: Shield Focus, Missile Shield
- This tank has few non-magical impediments to freewheeling. Not only is his AC 3 to 7 higher than the 2hPA warrior, but he can also deflect one ranged attack per round after knowing it would hit. He does less damage than the 2hPA or polearm guy, but he takes way less damage from the enemy. In the attrition game (such as a dungeon crawl with limited rest), he's the winner.
Weapon Focus is a prerequisite for a LOT.Of course, but that doesn't make it innately good. It makes it a tax. (On the archery side of things, we're looking at Point-Blank Shot, which seems better than Weapon Focus, but is actually worse because most things you shoot with a bow are farther than 30' away, at which point it's worthless, and the player is annoyed at having to remember a situational bonus.)
Weapon Focus actually a better feat for a 3/4th BAB class in combat roles (e.g., Crusader Clerics, Warpriests, melee rogues, etc). You can always tell a tax feat by the willingness of Paizo to give it away for free in certain classes and make it available to others with quasi-feat-like abilities (such as rogue talents).
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Here's an example of something I see all the time in new martial melee characters:
(human barbarian or any-race fighter)
1st level feats: Weapon Focus (two-hander sword), Power Attack.
...these two feats together generate attack+0/damage+(2or3)A non-exhaustive list of the mistakes being made:
- Almost everything you fight at 1st level has less than 10 hit points, except the boss. You don't need the +3. You just need to hit. But there are other considerations as well, such as not being hit.
- no defensive mechanisms while at baby-level hitpoints
- and of course, a +1 or +1.5 damage average gain is a very poor return on the investment of 100% of your starting feats.Comparisons:
1st level feats in a barbarian: Extra Rage, Combat Reflexes
- This guy fights with a polearm. Has probably three attacks of opportunity, is att+2/dmg+3 while raging, utterly destroys low-level "party vs. party" type encounters by mowing down opponents who have to give him a free whack in order to advance through his threatened zones. He's basically a mobile AoE.1st level feats in a sword-n-board: Shield Focus, Missile Shield
- This tank has few non-magical impediments to freewheeling. Not only is his AC 3 to 7 higher than the 2hPA...
Regardless of your personal opinion on feat taxes, if you need it for the build then you need it for the build.
I appreciate the enthusiasm, but you're really going overkill here, friend.
Going overkill is when you write a guide. <grin><wink>
Going overkill is when you write a guide. <grin><wink>
The guide came out of a need for one thanks to [fighters suck thread 34524] where we learned a lot of people were not aware of all the nice things fighters get.
Thanks for the personal shot though.
I don't even have a section on builds yet, maybe don't attack a hypothetical build choice that I haven't even written.
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Nice work! Makes me wanna bash myself for somehow consistently failing my Perception checks to notice this guide before now.
Although the fighter class rarely sees much use beyond the occasional 1-4 levels dip in my games, quite a lot of the higher rated stuff in your guide can also be of interest to other martials. (Which in my games primarily means Path of War initiators, and notably the Myrmidon fighter archetype which thankfully doesn't replace AWT or AAT.)
And because I'm a snarky nerdy nit-picky guy who cannot bear people being wrong on the internet, I'm really happy to finally have a place to which I can refer posters who still believe fighters are crap at fighting in comparison to other Paizo martials. Instead of having to post my own hopelessly inadequate descriptions of the fighter's many relatively recently published options and possibilities for the hundredth time... ;)
Judging from the ratings, I'm guessing this guide was primarily put together in order to help players make fighters able to, at the very least, carry their weight in typical lower op games (ie Paizo APs run as written), and to better keep up with the generally stronger Paizo martials (like the barb, bloodrager or pally). Meaning considerations mainly applicable to fighters in more demanding games are of less importance. Is this correct?
If it is, I think it still might be worth mentioning a few of the strongest and typically less obvious martial options and mechanical details mostly of interest to fighters in higher op games. Especially such options/details which fighters get at a discount and/or can get a lot of use out of, in comparison to most other martials.
Style Feats: Ascetic Style This allows for combining reach with options otherwise limited to unarmed strikes, opening up for some fun and effective control shenanigans and damage boosts. Not to mention some conceptually hilarious stuff together with the Versatile Design weapon mod. At its most basic level, it gives you at least two additional slots for magic weapon special abilities with the chosen weapon, significantly reducing weapon enhancements costs in higher levels. And it makes your weapon attacks a valid target of some great buff spells as well, such as strong jaw. Often best combined with a monk dip though.
Combat Maneuvers: Dirty Trick Master + Fox Trickery/Kitsune Vengeance Note that Dirty Trick Master allows you to impose the dazed or nauseated conditions, which prevents the affected enemy from taking standard actions and in turn from removing the condition. So if you can reliably make two dirty tricks against the same enemy during your turn, you'll be able to effectively remove the enemy from combat. And with Fox Trickery or Kitsune Vengeance added to an AoO combo, a fighter can potentially do this against several enemies on his turn, and even outside of his turn. The many feats and high CMB required to make this really shine also means it's exceptionally well suited for fighters. Don't forget your Dueling (PSFG) weapon! As with Soulless Gaze, this can make the game boring without some minor house rules to prevent the hardcore lock down. (It's actually the only combat feat which I've nerfed slightly in my games, allowing the target to remove the worse condition as a full round action, if said condition would otherwise prevent the target from removing it as a standard action.)
Speaking of:
Magic Weapon: Dueling (PSFG) (NOT the 14k ability for Finesse weapons also called dueling for some stupid reason) +1 magic weapon ability which adds twice the weapon's enhancement bonus as a luck bonus to combat maneuvers performed/defended against with the weapon, on top of the weapon's enhancement bonus. AFAIK, nothing in the game besides several levels in the Lore Warden will provide as big a numerical boost to CMB.
Magic Weapon: Leveraging Note that this stacks with the above dueling for trip and reposition, granting a total bonus ranging from +4 to up to +42 (with furious and rage). Beating the tarrasque's CMD is easy, too bad that's not enough to trip it, and that it's typically a LOT harder or impossible to work around the many flat immunities to trip CR 10+ monsters often have...
Magic Shield: Maelstrom Shield Free action trip whenever you make a shield bash attack, at discount price. RAW, your shield bash doesn't even have to hit for the free action trip, and as per Paizo's FAQ you gain it even on attacks made outside your own turn. Allows for some fantastic AoO combos for incredible control or damage, although trip comes with a big slew of issues later in the game.
Magic Shield: Tempest Shield As the Maelstrom, but free bull rush. Unlike the often useless Shield Slam bull rush, this gives you an actual proper CMB check, allowing for significantly more reliable AoO combos than trip based ones in higher levels.
Re: Exotic Weapon Profiency and Weapon Focus Note that you can get both for a mere 2k or less by taking a COWPIS (cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone) in a wayfinder. Just mind what you're drinking before you do, you may have to live with the smell for a long time... :P
Sorry for the wall of text. Hope you find something useful in there.
And keep up the good work!
Nice work! Makes me wanna bash myself for somehow consistently failing my Perception checks to notice this guide before now.
Although the fighter class rarely sees much use beyond the occasional 1-4 levels dip in my games, quite a lot of the higher rated stuff in your guide can also be of interest to other martials. (Which in my games primarily means Path of War initiators, and notably the Myrmidon fighter archetype which thankfully doesn't replace AWT or AAT.)
And because I'm a snarky nerdy nit-picky guy who cannot bear people being wrong on the internet, I'm really happy to finally have a place to which I can refer posters who still believe fighters are crap at fighting in comparison to other Paizo martials. Instead of having to post my own hopelessly inadequate descriptions of the fighter's many relatively recently published options and possibilities for the hundredth time... ;)
Judging from the ratings, I'm guessing this guide was primarily put together in order to help players make fighters able to, at the very least, carry their weight in typical lower op games (ie Paizo APs run as written), and to better keep up with the generally stronger Paizo martials (like the barb, bloodrager or pally). Meaning considerations mainly applicable to fighters in more demanding games are of less importance. Is this correct?
If it is, I think it still might be worth mentioning a few of the strongest and typically less obvious martial options and mechanical details mostly of interest to fighters in higher op games. Especially such options/details which fighters get at a discount and/or can get a lot of use out of, in comparison to most other martials.
** spoiler omitted **...
Indeed the goal here was to show what the fighter can do as a single class, compared to other classes that fill the same party role.
I do plan on including the bit about ioun stones and I was working on the magic weapon enhancements when Zelda came out and stole my life.
the best guide to fighters I have ever seen and one of the best class guides of all time. Well written and very in depth.
My only gripe is you mention Schrödingers fighter so many time but give no real example or build for it. Hope you finish the gear section soon. Outstanding work sir!
the best guide to fighters I have ever seen and one of the best class guides of all time. Well written and very in depth.
My only gripe is you mention Schrödingers fighter so many time but give no real example or build for it. Hope you finish the gear section soon. Outstanding work sir!
I'm torn as to whether I should finish the rest of the guide by going through the items then going into builds or if I need to go back and revisit the newer books that have come out since I last left off.
I've been scouring Adventurer's Guide and Ultimate Wilderness for feats that I don;t already have done.
It's fairly daunting.
An... update?
Magic Weapon Abilities have been gone through. Next step is specific weapons, of which I think few are relevant. Please lmk if I've missed anything important.
I'm on a new PC so I'm going through the process of redownloading Adventurer's Armory 2, I plan on adding in the sections on weapon/armor modifications, then going into magic armor and then wondrous items.
At which point I think we can finally do builds, which means y'all can feel free to come up with some interesting builds for me to showcase. Full credit and links will be provided for you, of course, should you choose to participate.
Post builds I will include a multiclassing/variant multiclassing section.
Post that I can finally dig into archetypes, of which there are more than any other class. Yikes.
Do our PFS guys have info that may be outdated/changed on the legality front of things?
Ultimate Wilderness- added feats
Adventurer's Armory 2- added feats, new weapons, weapon modifications section, and armor modifications section
Magic armor special abilities and magic weapon special abilities have been gone through.
I have not done specific weapons or armor, and I'm not sure which ones are really necessary to cover.
Next step is Wondrous items, but I am unsure if I want/need to keep the fighter stuff separate, or just make sure that the items are made to catch enough attention.
136 pages and counting.
Might I suggest adding the General Feat Sheltering Stubbornness from the Antihero’s Handbook:
Prerequisite: Iron Will.
Benefit: When you fail a saving throw against a mind-affecting effect with a duration of 1 round or longer (such as confusion), you can choose to be dazzled for the first round of the duration instead of suffering the usual effect.
On subsequent rounds, the effect functions normally. If an effect, immunity, or other ability prevents you from being dazzled, this feat has no effect.
Might I suggest adding the General Feat Sheltering Stubbornness from the Antihero’s Handbook:
Prerequisite: Iron Will.
Benefit: When you fail a saving throw against a mind-affecting effect with a duration of 1 round or longer (such as confusion), you can choose to be dazzled for the first round of the duration instead of suffering the usual effect.
On subsequent rounds, the effect functions normally. If an effect, immunity, or other ability prevents you from being dazzled, this feat has no effect.
I'll go through the book and see if there's anything else to add, it'll go in there.
Minor update: decisions were made, specific weapons are added, though I fear there are some I haven't found yet that may be worth noting.
Currently plugging away at the specific armors.
Hi,
You talk about the dorn-dergar, and how the AA2 book gave this weapon new life. Can you elaborate? I see you gave the Darting Viper feat a purple rating, but IIRC that's always been around. If you could explain I'd love to hear it.
Thanks!