Making Sure My Gunslinger Cheese Is Legal


Rules Questions


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I'm building a gunslinger-like-thing.

With my current build plan, by 7th level I will have the basic gunslinger feats plus Rapid shot, TWF, ITWF, and quick draw.

My plan is to have one good pistol with all the magic goodies and a series of semi-disposable double barrel pistols.

I want to make sure my planned method and order of attacks is rock solid legal.
On a full attack:
1. Use quick draw to draw my primary single barrel pistol. Fire my first shot, and my extra shot from Rapid Shot while reloading with my off hand.
2. Use quick draw to pull a double barrel pistol with my off hand. Fire the initial and iterative shots allowed with TWF and ITWF. Then drop that weapon.
3. Fire the iterative on the primary weapon and reload with the now free off hand.

Rinse. Repeat.
Is this legal?

Alternatively, I'm considering going the grossly inefficient route of sword and pistol while making use of a Glove of Storing. My plan is the attack actions would work similarly, but instead of dropping the off hand weapon to reload, I would take a free action to store away the sword and then bring it back again with another free action.

Is this legal?


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You've been playing Overwatch, haven't you? As for the build, I see no problem with it. Since you'll only be worrying about 2 off-hand attacks since GTWF is a waste of a feat, I think you're good. Just keep in mind that you're taking a -4 on attack rolls for using a non-light off-hand. Not as bad considering firearms target touch in first range increment, but still something to keep in mind. There's no prohibition on temporarily emptying your hand in order to load a firearm. But how many extra double pistols are you going to be carting around? I'll presume you aren't going to be spending the cash to make them mwk/magical so what's your next step once the lack of enhancement bonus becomes a significant issue? I'd suggest investing in that glove of storing and a Pistol of the Infinite Sky so you can pop out the pistol, fire it, it never needs reloading, then pop it back in and you've got a free hand to reload your main-hand weapon.


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Seems legal, but is there any reason you can't just do 1,3,2 instead? I thought you only had to take your individual hands' attacks in BAB order, not your overall attack sequence.

Also, Gun Twirling lets you holster as a free, so you can instead draw, shoot, and holster your first gun, then do it all again with your second gun.


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I've never actually played Overwatch. I've heard of it, but don't really know anything about it. As a general rule I don't play "Shooters".

But recently I had a character with Improved Two Weapon Fighting come across auto loading pistols that bestowed the Rapid Shot feat. I never got a chance to use them during the scenario, but I have been pondering ways to recreate the effect.


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I would love to use gun twirling, but that is three more feats I would have to shoehorn into an already feat intensive build.

I am a little fuzzy on the requirements for order of all attacks. So you may be right Bob^3


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Kazaam wrote:
There's no prohibition on temporarily emptying your hand in order to load a firearm. But how many extra double pistols are you going to be carting around? I'll presume you aren't going to be spending the cash to make them mwk/magical so what's your next step once the lack of enhancement bonus becomes a significant issue?

I'm thinking only 3 or so double pistols as well as a dragon pistol or two for fun. It could be entertaining surprise to mix a fireball into the melee action. I'm hoping that specialty ammo could alleviate some of the problems with damage output from the nonmagical firearms. I'm going Mysterious Stranger for Charisma to damage, and combining it with deadly aim to put damage at around d8+10. I figure by the second or third round I will be in the mix of melee and using the sword in my off hand.

Now, you have a point with the negatives to attack. With -4 from TWF and -2 from Rapid Shot and another -2 from Deadly Aim, we are starting with a -8 to attacks. To bad no firearms are considered light weapons.


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Another random point to consider is that playing a race with a prehensile tail will allow you to "hand off" your gun to your tail, which might make various reloading effects a lot easier to pull off.


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Are there legal PFS races with prehensile tails?


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According to Archives of Nethys, Tiefling is, and it replaces Fiendish Sorcery, which you'd be unlikely to want anyway.


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You can do all kinds of silly things with many guns and extra arms and what have you. If that's fun for you then awesome!

Personally, I'd be happy with just using 2 revolvers. 12 shots between them before the reload, so 2 full attacks based on your attack pattern in the OP, with change in the chamber after. Then you can drop one gun and keep going one handed for the rest of the combat to allow you to reload perhaps?

Big advantage of this is having just two guns makes magical enhancement on every shot much more viable!

Of course this assumes your game is allowing Advanced Firearms, but if so you should be able to afford them at level 7.


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Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Seems legal, but is there any reason you can't just do 1,3,2 instead? I thought you only had to take your individual hands' attacks in BAB order, not your overall attack sequence.

Also, Gun Twirling lets you holster as a free, so you can instead draw, shoot, and holster your first gun, then do it all again with your second gun.

You're only explicitly required to follow BAB order for iterative attacks. But you're implicitly required to follow off-hand order of your single normal off-hand attack/ITWF attack/GTWF atack since ITWF states you gain a second off-hand attack (you can't make a second of something until you've made a first) and GTWF states third. As long as you stick to the order for each hand, you can otherwise shuffle them as you like, as well as shuffling in additional attacks from other sources. The extra attack from Haste could be placed at the very end, for instance.

@Kifaru: Wow, never played Overwatch, huh? Your build concept is very similar to one of its heros called Reaper who uses a pair of guns and when they're empty, he just tosses them aside and draws a new pair instead of bothering to reload.


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Disposable guns is an old trope, which I can only assume has some basis in historical fact. One of my gun affectionado buddies said that in the era of muzzle loader combat it was common to have 2 or 3 or more firearms stashed about the body. These were not for duel wielding but were essentially fire and forget tools.
Same for revolvers a hundred years later in the old west. Reloading would get you killed. Better to have a backup gun or two.


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I don't think tieflings are legal anymore. At the the very least, I think you need a boon for PFS play.


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Kifaru wrote:
Disposable guns is an old trope, which I can only assume has some basis in historical fact. One of my gun affectionado buddies said that in the era of muzzle loader combat it was common to have 2 or 3 or more firearms stashed about the body.

This is how Blackbeard did it.

With his beard on fire. No joke.


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The use of 'disposable firearms' is well documented.

A regular muzzle-loaded flintlock musket, introduced in the 17th century, had a reload time of 15 seconds when done by an expert. Picking up another loaded weapon was obviously much quicker, although mainly used when defending a position (because running with 15 rifles on your back over a muddy battlefield isn't all that enjoyable).

Racial Heritage into Agile Tongue seems to be PFS legal, by the way.


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if PFS legal, vanara come with a prehensile tail racial ability, plus a gun slinging monkey person, yep, I could get behind that.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kifaru wrote:
Are there legal PFS races with prehensile tails?

Even using a race without a tail, a two level dip in alchemist allows a character to take the Vestigial Arm discovery (or Tentacle, which can be flavored as a tail). Two more levels (four total) allows the Explosive Missile discovery. After getting Dex to damage with gunslinger 5, taking a few alchemist levels (grenadier archetype, probably) is both thematically appropriate and provides some nice benefits.

Silver Crusade

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Grippli get a racial feat that lets them manipulate objects (including guns n ammo) with their tongue.

For PFS currently grippli, vanara and tieflings all require boons though. But as Stux is hinting at, 2 levels of alchemist lets you take Extra Arm or Tentacle as discoveries, and both are prehensile.


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If you do end up having to use a sword you should consider getting a Sword Cane Pistol. It is a walking stick, a sword, and a pistol all in one! After you unload it, well, its still sharp!

(Its in the Ultimate Combat book)


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I have done this Rid, fun...oh yes...

What? I shot him in the most gentlemanly fashion I could!


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yeah i want to make a dude with a sword cane pistol in each hand and a buckler gun on each arm. He switches off which swordgun he's wielding and which buckler he's wielding, an ambidextrous swashbuckling pistol-flipping wonder!

By the by, does pistol whipping work with buckler guns and sword cane pistols?


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sword cane pistol I would say yes personally (reason: a sword cane pistol still has a handle with which to pistol whip someone), for the bucklers, that is still buckler bashing, which RAW, is a no..(except when it isn't, in the case of the buckler duelist fighter archetype, which as a buckler gun is still a buckler, does work still)


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Gulthor wrote:
According to Archives of Nethys, Tiefling is, and it replaces Fiendish Sorcery, which you'd be unlikely to want anyway.

Can you play a tiefling without it dieing of old age in PFS?

Sczarni

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Mavrickindigo wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
According to Archives of Nethys, Tiefling is
Can you play a tiefling without it dieing of old age in PFS?

The newer generation seems to be doing fine.

But that first run have all kicked the bucket by now.

Such a shame. My Ifrit, Undine, Oread and Sylph went to the funerals of my Aasimar and Tiefling. Then they made lunch plans for 60 years in the future.

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