Chaotic Good Paladins.


Hell's Rebels


I've decided that if I ever run this AP again, I'm going to allow a modified Chaotic Good variant of the Paladin class similar to the one of the "Unearthed Arcana" supplement from earlier editions. I believe that CG paladins are appropriate for the theme of this campaign and would be acceptable here; since naturally a chaotic paladin would be more willing to challenge the authority of a government or empire (such as that of Cheliax and Barzillai Thrune) then a lawful one. In this adventure, such a unique paladin could really shine; and fulfill the smiting/detecting evil/healing role in an AP filled with evil outsiders. So there are mechanical advantages to playing a paladin here, and allowing them to be CG not only sidesteps a lot of the issues with playing paladins in such a game, but also opens up a new vein of lore for how "Paladins of Freedom" would work on Golarion.

There are three chaotic good deities who have a strong presence in Kintargo: Cayden Cailean, Desna, and Milani. I see potential for ale-swigging Caydenite paladins, fortune-telling Desnan paladins, and heroic, revolutionary Milanite paladins.

Here's my question: how should I should depict CG paladins, what role they have in their religions, and how they might work in Kintargo? And what opportunities, missions, and quests can I offer to such paladins in the Hell's Rebels campaign?


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As a fan of Paladins, and someone who fought for releasing them from the ridiculous shackles of LG since beta, this is actually super SUPER easy to do.

I would just say the Paladins just have to be good. That's right ANY good alignment. However, they must be completely dedicated to doing good.

The Law/Chaos alignment plane is so messed up that it contradicts itself all over the place. Example, Monks must be lawful since they dedicate them selves to their training, but Wizards can be any alignment although the dedicate themselves to the study of magic...whut???

Where i see CG paladins differing from LG paladins is planning. I see CG paladins being more, help the person in need in front of me right now ignoring future consequences while a LG will help if it does not interfere with the big picture. Again though, the Law/Chaos plane is vague.


The alignment rules on some classes mix ethical and moral issues with self-discipline, which makes no sense.

I would say that while standard paladins may focus on goodness and order (which may well put them at odds with the monarchy in Cheliax - heck, at the time of Hell´s Rebels / Hell´s Vengeance there is a huge rebellion in Cheliax led by paladins) the CG version would focus on goodness and change and mutability. To me, lawful alignments focus on order, hierarchy and stable institutions, while chaotic ones focus on development and flexibility. A lawful character may see a situation and think of a precedent that fits it and that would dictate the reaction, while a chaotic character would decide what to do based on what is happening here and now.

Going back to the original post, a paladin can be pretty damn willing to challenge an authority that is not legitimate in his/her eyes, and Cheliax qualifies pretty easily. The sort of stuff Barzilai Thrune does - in particular what he does behind the curtains - can definitely bring a LG type to the rebellion. There is a world of difference between wanting law and order and wanting THIS law and order. So while the book tends to push for a more chaotic party, lawful characters can work perfectly well for this campaign.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

It's easy making a Chaotic Good "Paladin"

Make a Warpriest. :-)

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
captain yesterday wrote:

It's easy making a Chaotic Good "Paladin"

Make a Warpriest. :-)

*bops Cap'n with a rolled up newspaper*

No.

*bops*

No.

*bops*

No.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

For the record, according to the rules a Paladin falls immediately if they commit an evil act but NOT if they commit a chaotic act.

Paladins are supposed to be dedicated to good first, and then the law. A Paladin should have no problem opposing Cheliax because the laws are in service of evil.

If you want to have a chaotic good archtype of the Paladin in your game, you of course are welcome, but it's not really necessary in order to have a paladin oppose an evil government.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
andygal wrote:

For the record, according to the rules a Paladin falls immediately if they commit an evil act but NOT if they commit a chaotic act.

Paladins are supposed to be dedicated to good first, and then the law. A Paladin should have no problem opposing Cheliax because the laws are in service of evil.

If you want to have a chaotic good archtype of the Paladin in your game, you of course are welcome, but it's not really necessary in order to have a paladin oppose an evil government.

*nods*

They would only "fall" once they committed enough Chaotic Acts that their alignment switched to NG, which is very easy to mitigate.


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Axial wrote:


Here's my question: how should I should depict CG paladins, what role they have in their religions, and how they might work in Kintargo? And what opportunities, missions, and quests can I offer to such paladins in the Hell's Rebels campaign?

So I wrote a huge response to discuss paladin alignments and realized it was a total thread derailment, which I started, apologies.

Anyways, to answer your direct; it's going to be tricky. You may have a CG Paladin who gets up in front of the people publicly and stirs them to action, you may have a CG Paladin that remains in the shadows stealthily taking out the cancer that infects his home, or you could have a CG Paladin that encourages calm and civility in the people since he realizes that directly opposing the Empire of Cheliax in open as a single city is madness that will end in the death of lots of people. At the end of the day, ANY paladin will be dedicated to doing good.

Really, it is wide open how to depict them. A Paladin of Cayden Cailean could provide a place for people to relax and forget the worries of the world for a time, a Desnan Paladin could take it upon themselves to ensure that people traveling within the city are safe and protected, and a Milani Paladin could be leading open revolt.

The churches of each of these gods would react differently to each individual paladin, and each individual priest of these religions would react differently to each paladin.

So specific examples:

John Gerald owns and operates a tavern known as The Lucky Beggar, as a paladin of Cayden Cailean, he ensures that the drink and company are the best in town. He allows the local Cult of Milani to meet in his basement, and if any Thrune agents try to work his establishment or harass his patrons; he reminds them that The Drunken God was a soldier.

Rachelle Benedicci is a Paladin of Milani and leads one of the cells within Kintargo. She and her supporters meet in The Lucky Beggar that is owned by her friend John. In her meetings she actively encourages actions against the Thrune and plans and takes part in some of the more daring raids. She understands that John is sticking his neck out for her and tries to be a secretive about her relationship as possible.

Tilitha, is a paladin of Desna and was brought to Kintargo by a dream sent by her goddess. As she is an outsider, she does not know much about Kintargo but can see the corruption and oppression. She has taken it upon herself to patrol the city streets at night and stop any Thrune agents from harassing those that walk the streets.

Each is different, each is motivated by a different reason, but at the end of the day, each one is trying to do the best good they can.

Hope it helps somewhat.


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Rysky wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

It's easy making a Chaotic Good "Paladin"

Make a Warpriest. :-)

*bops Cap'n with a rolled up newspaper*

No.

*bops*

No.

*bops*

No.

Paladins suck, Warpriest is way better.

But then ANY class is better than Paladin. :-)


Andarion wrote:
Axial wrote:


Here's my question: how should I should depict CG paladins, what role they have in their religions, and how they might work in Kintargo? And what opportunities, missions, and quests can I offer to such paladins in the Hell's Rebels campaign?

So I wrote a huge response to discuss paladin alignments and realized it was a total thread derailment, which I started, apologies.

Anyways, to answer your direct; it's going to be tricky. You may have a CG Paladin who gets up in front of the people publicly and stirs them to action, you may have a CG Paladin that remains in the shadows stealthily taking out the cancer that infects his home, or you could have a CG Paladin that encourages calm and civility in the people since he realizes that directly opposing the Empire of Cheliax in open as a single city is madness that will end in the death of lots of people. At the end of the day, ANY paladin will be dedicated to doing good.

Really, it is wide open how to depict them. A Paladin of Cayden Cailean could provide a place for people to relax and forget the worries of the world for a time, a Desnan Paladin could take it upon themselves to ensure that people traveling within the city are safe and protected, and a Milani Paladin could be leading open revolt.

The churches of each of these gods would react differently to each individual paladin, and each individual priest of these religions would react differently to each paladin.

So specific examples:

John Gerald owns and operates a tavern known as The Lucky Beggar, as a paladin of Cayden Cailean, he ensures that the drink and company are the best in town. He allows the local Cult of Milani to meet in his basement, and if any Thrune agents try to work his establishment or harass his patrons; he reminds them that The Drunken God was a soldier.

Rachelle Benedicci is a Paladin of Milani and leads one of the cells within Kintargo. She and her supporters meet in The Lucky Beggar that is owned by her friend John. In her meetings...

Excellent response. Thank you very much.


I have exactly such a beast in my current Hell's Rebels game, he's a Paladin of Cayden Cailean.

So far it's working really well. To be honest the game does not suffer if you treat Paladin as a class who dedicates themselves to the tenets of their faith and gains appropriate blessings and powers, losing those benefits if they stray from the path.

It's just a question of swapping out the generic Paladin Code for a set which matches the religion they have chosen to follow.


PJH wrote:

I have exactly such a beast in my current Hell's Rebels game, he's a Paladin of Cayden Cailean.

So far it's working really well. To be honest the game does not suffer if you treat Paladin as a class who dedicates themselves to the tenets of their faith and gains appropriate blessings and powers, losing those benefits if they stray from the path.

It's just a question of swapping out the generic Paladin Code for a set which matches the religion they have chosen to follow.

You also have to adjust the alignment based powers and spells. The real problem I have with Chaotic Good Paladins, is that they have pretty much all of the power of the standard Paladin with hardly any of the restrictions.


Far and away the simplest, easiest fix we've come up with for the onerous alignment restrictions on Paladins while still retaining the concept and flavor is to make Paladins quite literally avatars of one of the four cardinal alignments, i.e. Paladins of Good, of Law, of Chaos and of Evil. Meaning that you can have two Paladins of Chaos with one being Chaotic Good and the other being Chaotic Evil - we refer to that as the Batman/Joker paradigm. With this rule all of the standard rules for Paladins apply, you simply exchange Evil, Law or Chaos for wherever 'Good' appears in their class features and ability descriptions.

A Paladin may or may not choose to follow a deity just like any other character and there are some pairings which work particularly well, but they actually drawn their power from the alignment itself (kind of like drawing on positive or negative energy).

Its worked beautifully and has opened up a host of character concepts we likely never would have considered otherwise.


Or you could just ditch alignment and use something like loyalties from Unchained.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
PJH wrote:

I have exactly such a beast in my current Hell's Rebels game, he's a Paladin of Cayden Cailean.

So far it's working really well. To be honest the game does not suffer if you treat Paladin as a class who dedicates themselves to the tenets of their faith and gains appropriate blessings and powers, losing those benefits if they stray from the path.

It's just a question of swapping out the generic Paladin Code for a set which matches the religion they have chosen to follow.

You also have to adjust the alignment based powers and spells. The real problem I have with Chaotic Good Paladins, is that they have pretty much all of the power of the standard Paladin with hardly any of the restrictions.

How often do those restrictions come into play, though?

They would still be restricted by the "Good" part of their alignment.

Shadow Lodge

I could see you getting drunk and waking up a paladin. I could also see Sheyln and Callistra with paladins, which might be fine.

Seriously, I think a Chaotic Paladin would have a very personal experience that guided them. Think how to Malcolm Reynolds of firefly how being on the loosing side of a civil war is key to who he is and his cg alignment and you get what I mean.

Perhaps a Milanite paladin would be someone, after encountering oppression in a personal way would say never again and find themselves unable not to act.

A Caydenite might have struggles with despair filled alcoholism before finding renewed purpose.

A Sheylnite might see beauty violated in a way that would not happen if law was not aiding and abetting it.

A Callistran would swear vengeance. But part of that vengeance would be making sure they did not become like their oppresors and making sure others did not through her actions.

Desnans I have problems with but I have problems thinking like a Desnan. Hope that's helpful.


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Captain Yesterday Smurf wrote:
Rysky wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

It's easy making a Chaotic Good "Paladin"

Make a Warpriest. :-)

*bops Cap'n with a rolled up newspaper*

No.

*bops*

No.

*bops*

No.

Paladins suck, Warpriest is way better.

But then ANY class is better than Paladin. :-)

Gonna need a bigger newspaper.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Captain Yesterday wrote:
Rysky wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

It's easy making a Chaotic Good "Paladin"

Make a Warpriest. :-)

*bops Cap'n with a rolled up newspaper*

No.

*bops*

No.

*bops*

No.

Paladins suck, Warpriest is way better.

But then ANY class is better than Paladin. :-)

Gonna need a bigger newspaper.

*sigh*

Yeah...


You can always use the Holy Liberator PrC from D&D 3.5 Complete Divine, pages 45 through 47, tweak it slightly to suit your campaign, and rename it "Holy Warrior." There is also the "Paladin of Freedom," though I don't remember what book it is in.

Silver Crusade

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Or Champion of Gwynharwyf from Book of Exalted Deeds.


Rysky wrote:
Or Champion of Gwynharwyf from Book of Exalted Deeds.

Exactly! There are always options. All you have to do is either ask or look. Until Paizo comes up with their own versions, it's still OK to use D&D 3.5 material.


Rysky wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Captain Yesterday wrote:
Rysky wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

It's easy making a Chaotic Good "Paladin"

Make a Warpriest. :-)

*bops Cap'n with a rolled up newspaper*

No.

*bops*

No.

*bops*

No.

Paladins suck, Warpriest is way better.

But then ANY class is better than Paladin. :-)

Gonna need a bigger newspaper.

*sigh*

Yeah...

If you don't mind me asking, what's so special about Paladins in the first place. Is it just the class abilities, or is it a need to believe religion can be good, or something else.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Captain Yesterday wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Captain Yesterday wrote:
Rysky wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

It's easy making a Chaotic Good "Paladin"

Make a Warpriest. :-)

*bops Cap'n with a rolled up newspaper*

No.

*bops*

No.

*bops*

No.

Paladins suck, Warpriest is way better.

But then ANY class is better than Paladin. :-)

Gonna need a bigger newspaper.

*sigh*

Yeah...

If you don't mind me asking, what's so special about Paladins in the first place. Is it just the class abilities, or is it a need to believe religion can be good, or something else.

The fact that I like the powers they get, and the fact that they are on a tighter leash than other characters. And the fact that they are (or supposed to be, if not played by a@&*$*&s) epitomes of Good. And Good aligned Deities if they serve those.


Regarding my previous post, "Paladin of Freedom," D&D 3.5 Unearthed Arcana, page 53. Sorry it took me this long, had to go through my books.


Rysky wrote:
Captain Yesterday wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Captain Yesterday wrote:
Rysky wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

It's easy making a Chaotic Good "Paladin"

Make a Warpriest. :-)

*bops Cap'n with a rolled up newspaper*

No.

*bops*

No.

*bops*

No.

Paladins suck, Warpriest is way better.

But then ANY class is better than Paladin. :-)

Gonna need a bigger newspaper.

*sigh*

Yeah...

If you don't mind me asking, what's so special about Paladins in the first place. Is it just the class abilities, or is it a need to believe religion can be good, or something else.
The fact that I like the powers they get, and the fact that they are on a tighter leash than other characters. And the fact that they are (or supposed to be, if not played by a#+#&@$s) epitomes of Good. And Good aligned Deities if they serve those.

I hope one day to see your Not an A$$@!!+ Paladins, I haven't seen it. I do like the individual codes for the various deities.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Captain Yesterday wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Captain Yesterday wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Captain Yesterday wrote:
Rysky wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

It's easy making a Chaotic Good "Paladin"

Make a Warpriest. :-)

*bops Cap'n with a rolled up newspaper*

No.

*bops*

No.

*bops*

No.

Paladins suck, Warpriest is way better.

But then ANY class is better than Paladin. :-)

Gonna need a bigger newspaper.

*sigh*

Yeah...

If you don't mind me asking, what's so special about Paladins in the first place. Is it just the class abilities, or is it a need to believe religion can be good, or something else.
The fact that I like the powers they get, and the fact that they are on a tighter leash than other characters. And the fact that they are (or supposed to be, if not played by a#+#&@$s) epitomes of Good. And Good aligned Deities if they serve those.
I hope one day to see your Not an A%#+*@* Paladins, I haven't seen it. I do like the individual codes for the various deities.

I've lucked out and played with an awesome Paladin of Sarenrae in CotCT, she pretty much exemplifies everything I love about Paladins. Sorry you haven't been so lucky :(


It doesn't really bother me, we don't really have Paladins, and truth be told I much prefer Warpriest anyway.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
andygal wrote:

For the record, according to the rules a Paladin falls immediately if they commit an evil act but NOT if they commit a chaotic act.

Paladins are supposed to be dedicated to good first, and then the law. A Paladin should have no problem opposing Cheliax because the laws are in service of evil.

If you want to have a chaotic good archtype of the Paladin in your game, you of course are welcome, but it's not really necessary in order to have a paladin oppose an evil government.

If a law is unjust the Paladin not only CAN oppose it, but it's his or her DUTY to do so. A regular Paladin would fit into Hell's Rebels just fine.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
andygal wrote:

For the record, according to the rules a Paladin falls immediately if they commit an evil act but NOT if they commit a chaotic act.

Paladins are supposed to be dedicated to good first, and then the law. A Paladin should have no problem opposing Cheliax because the laws are in service of evil.

If you want to have a chaotic good archtype of the Paladin in your game, you of course are welcome, but it's not really necessary in order to have a paladin oppose an evil government.

*nods*

They would only "fall" once they committed enough Chaotic Acts that their alignment switched to NG, which is very easy to mitigate.

Even then, that doesn't seem to be an alignment-changer, judging by the fact that in book 2, we get

Spoiler:
an LG Hellknight who decides to join the rebellion, without becoming neutral or chaotic because of it (at least as written).

Probably a mark of just how bad Barzillai is.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Nice responses ^w^

But, uh, the thread's been dead for a year.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Once again, I've fallen victim to the stealth thread-necro.

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