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First up, flagging for wrong board. This isn't a rules question, this is an advice question.
Secondly, how exactly is the swash OP? Is the group's optimization level relatively close, or did he build a competent build and everyone else just tossed a bunch of ideas together that sounded good?
Thirdly, if he's surrounded by fey and you want to yoink his sword, you can literally just do it while he's sleeping. No stealing maneuvers required. Be warned however, that unless you talk to him about this beforehand (WHICH I ABSOLUTELY RECOMMEND YOU DO) he will likely get pissed and feel like the GM is specifically targeting him for doing his job.
Just taking the swash's sword away for a couple of combats is not going to make the rest of your group stop feeling that he's OP; it's just going to make him useless for a couple of combats and be a burden, and then it'll be right back to the group resenting him. You really should just sit everyone down and allow people to air their grievances.
three ways?
Rust monster, Sunder, Thief in the night.
Fey can be VERY sneaky if they want to be...
Granted these are kind of jerk moves... but that kind of sounds like what your going for.
Disarm him, and have another creature pick it up.
Sunder it/Rust monster. (Broken magic items can be repaired and their magic restored with things like make whole, for example).
Charm him into willingly giving it up. Fey are generally good at charming people.
Steal it.
All of this would be after you try and deal with the problem out of character and not in game, as you should.
I think the way to show that the swashbuckler is not overpowered is not by denying the swashbuckler the opportunity to do what it does well, but to include a scenario where what the swashbuckler does well does not, in fact, apply.
I mean, given any opponent who has no interest in engaging in melee combat and has the means to stay out of melee combat, what exactly is the swashbuckler going to do? Even if he can move and attack, that's just one attack and if the antagonist, say takes a 5' step and casts a spell to extricate him or herself from the situation, the swashbuckler isn't going to be especially effective.
Given how limited a class the swashbuckler is, I don't think special care needs to be taken to showcase these limitations. I mean, fight some giants or some monsters who fly (or even just plain ol' skeletons) and the rest of the party will have an edge. The swashbuckler is (though I'm fond of it myself) one of the weakest classes in the game, falling somewhere between the core monk and the cavalier on the power spectrum.
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Before you steal his sword, you might want to check if you are following the rules correctly.
For instance, are you limiting him to one Riposte per round? The Riposte uses an immediate action, and you only get one. Not only that, but using it uses up your next turns swift action - something that a swashbuckler has lots of uses for.
Make sure he is using a point of panache for each party too. The parry is wonderful until you run out of panache.
Look at whatever is being done that makes people think it is overpowered and make sure that you are both understanding the rules the same way and that there have been no mistakes. It is easy to miss some of the rules.
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Depending on level he may be immune to disarm/sunder/steal while wielding his weapon.
Swashbucklers are really not OP. A number of classes/builds can easily pump out the kind of damage Swashbucklers put out.
The problem is that many of those builds require intent to do so while Swashbucklers do it without trying.
Without taking away the sword there are ways to remove his main source of damage (Precise Strike) without nerfing the character entirely. Anything that negates precision damage negates precise strike.
Examples include creatures immune to critical hits and darkness/blindness.
Swashbucklers are generally moderate to strong in Will saves (or are if I build them).
They would have to be hit with two Will saves in a single round for them to have a weak Will save.
I'll also toss in the question of HOW he's considered OP?
I'm enjoying my Swashbuckler... and admittedly have not played him very long, with more of a fun build than optimized build... but still??? I've found he's very competent in some situations... and utterly useless in others.
For example.. in the 2 nights I started playing him... We fought skeletal undead which he could do nothing against with his rapier. His strength absolutely sucked, so any ranged attacks had to be dealt with by others... His strength sucked badly, so when we came across shadow creatures at level 3 with just my rapier... I had to actively flee the battle. And he was nearly killed by something else... but that adventure was a bloodbath.... probably not related to the class ;)
Against corporeal enemies who could be stabbed, he did pretty well. He was operating at about +9 to hit and D4+7 damage with crit range18-20 so he was a lot of fun... but I certainly haven't seen anything that is truly abusable...
If he's strong in will saves, just see if a necromancer or poisoner can't neutralize him on Fort saves, which swashbucklers also have as bad saves.
If he's strong in will saves, just see if a necromancer or poisoner can't neutralize him on Fort saves, which swashbucklers also have as bad saves.
Perhaps you don't quite understand the saving throws of a Swashbuckler. Because he can add charisma to his saves (once per round) they are all decent to good (once per round). Kinda like a Paladin except...you guessed it...once per round.
So even weak saves with weak stat can add up to strong bonuses.
Halflings for example. By level 12 it is reasonable to assume that they will have a +11 Will and +11 Fort saves (+2Con, +1Wis, +4Resistance, +1Will from trait, +1 from Halfling) that is bumped up to a +15 via Charmed Life.
The Will save is a couple points higher than most Wizard types and the Fort save is within a point or so of what most Fighter types have.
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Of course swashbucklers are so much more powerful than equivalent level wizards. <g>
It's the land of Fey, have fun with it. Maybe the next time he draws his sword it is transformed into a swordfish on its first contact with iron or steel. Turns out one of the Fey swapped the weapon out, placing a slight glammer on it. Then Swashboy has to track down the girl he slept with last night... how embarrassing when it turns out that he/she/it wasn't quite what she seemed to be either, and the tumescent shuddersome tentacular horror looking longingly into Swashy's eyes just might be the bright point of the evening, when she confesses she had to give the sword to another faerie that she owed a favor to.
A few "pass-the-buck" encounters like this and the missing sword has turned into a whole evening's entertainment, in addition to allowing the other characters to shine a little bit more in combat while Shashboy is trying to fight using a swordfish.
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I'll also toss in the question of HOW he's considered OP?
I'm enjoying my Swashbuckler... and admittedly have not played him very long, with more of a fun build than optimized build... but still??? I've found he's very competent in some situations... and utterly useless in others.
For example.. in the 2 nights I started playing him... We fought skeletal undead which he could do nothing against with his rapier. His strength absolutely sucked, so any ranged attacks had to be dealt with by others... His strength sucked badly, so when we came across shadow creatures at level 3 with just my rapier... I had to actively flee the battle. And he was nearly killed by something else... but that adventure was a bloodbath.... probably not related to the class ;)
Against corporeal enemies who could be stabbed, he did pretty well. He was operating at about +9 to hit and D4+7 damage with crit range18-20 so he was a lot of fun... but I certainly haven't seen anything that is truly abusable...
Skeletons are not immune to piercing damage, they just have DR5/Bludgeoning. So you should have been doing something to them.
They are not immune to critical hits either so your Precise Strike should have been hurting them.Ranged attacks: use crossbow
Rapier: use dex to damage (Fencing Grace @level 3)
By level 12 a Swashbuckler can easily do 1d4+3enhancement +7 dex +12 precise +2 Weapon Spec +2 Gr. Weapon Spec. +2 Weapon Training +8 Power Attack = 1d4+36
A level 12 Fighter trying to do the same thing (poor choice?) would have:
1d4+3enhancement+7Dex+2WS +2Gr. WS + 4 Weapon Training +8 Power Attack = 1d4+26
Rapier: use dex to damage (Fencing Grace @level 3)
By level 12 a Swashbuckler can easily do 1d4+3enhancement +7 dex +12 precise +2 Weapon Spec +2 Gr. Weapon Spec. +2 Weapon Training +8 Power Attack = 1d4+36
A level 12 Fighter trying to do the same thing (poor choice?) would have:
1d4+3enhancement+7Dex+2WS +2Gr. WS + 4 Weapon Training +8 Power Attack = 1d4+26
Thank you for doing the math! Penash and hero points do add a bit more grunt. He also rests frequently.
The Swashbuckler's player is very competent, and spent hours reading online about his build before spending money on Hero Lab to efficiently build and run it. He sometimes turns up dressed as his character, and purchased a bottle of Rum last week, that has the same name as his character (Calico Jack). So he's the most passionate player at the table.
Trying to explain that he wrecks face because he puts in more work than anyone else, to the others is like patting a cat backwards with a wet hand. They don't like it.
This PC also thrives on adversity. I thought permanent blindness was too much last session (Nymph), but he told me not be chicken out. So I can mess with him as much as I like, and he'll thank me for it. As long as it's by the book, no fudging rolls.
If I cripple him for a while, it will give him a challenge. The other players can step up in battle. Then as a team they can restore his sword, now aware it's his Achilles heel.
This is all sounding super dramatic, the party cares far more about the pizza being late, or my NPC's accents drifting.
Anyway, the rules I can use are:
- Rusting monsters encounter (or rusting grasp)(Rust Girallon)
- Use charm person to request the sword.
- Steal + Improved Steal Combat Maneuvers (Advanced Player's Guide)
- Heat Metal, so he drops it.
-...
Spending money on Hero Lab is not necessary to have a decent build. Frankly I find that, for many people, it is a crutch for a lack of rules knowledge but that is another discussion.
He doesn't need to put in more work than anyone else to build a competent swashbuckler. The class results in competent builds right out of the gate.
Rust Monster: this won't work very well as there is an easy reflex save to do damage to the sword.
Charm Person: as previously discussed, Swashbucklers can have decent Will saves due to Charmed Life.
Stel+Improved Steal only work if the level is low enough. After a certain level they are immune to this.
Heat Metal: first, Will Save, second this does not cause people to drop it. It just does a minor amount of damage.
Polymorph any object: Fort Save so again, Charmed Life comes into play.
Honestly, the best way to show how ineffective he can be in combat is to remove his primary damage bonus (Precise Strike) and there are several ways to do that (elementals, incorporeal creatures, oozes, swarms, and darkness/blindness).
Other options are:
1) discuss with the rest of the group how to make more effective characters.
2) discuss with the player if he is willing to go to a less effective class.
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One sure way to end up with an irate player at your table is to mess with their ill-gotten gains, particularly if you are singling out one character. Bad idea.
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Two questions I present.
If the sword is nonmagical, then he need only buy more swords. You can't steal all his swords. And you can't keep stealing his sword. Will he never get his sword back, and if he does, wouldn't this turn right around again and be a problem?
Secondly, this sounds like a problem on the other players, not the swashbuckler. What are their builds like? What problems are they having? Could you balance them up somehow to compensate?
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OP: I think you need to think about how you can improve your GM skills. I mean this in a constructive manner.
(1) Swashbuckler is not an OP class. Pretty much everyone agrees on this.
(2) Trapping a swordsman in a fey realm, where swords are not available, and then taking away their sword, is a dick move. If you can't see that this is a dick move, I would invite you to look more closely at the situation. Do you really think people want to play a swordsman without a sword? Maybe some fringe people do, but most don't want the whole point of their class arbitrarily taken away.
(3) If the other party members honestly feel that a swashbuckler is overpowered, I think they need to start reading some guides. At some point, people need to be held responsible for their opinions. Let them know that you think they should read some character guides, and that you will let them have ONE character respec after they have read guides and know what to do. Try to stress that they are accountable for their own character.
Warning: Of course, this is all based on the proviso that the swashbuckler has not misunderstood the rules and is not abusing things. Try to read up on the rules, so that you can verify things. Post to the rules forum (in a different thread) if you have a concrete rules question.
Again, I would like to stress that I mean this post to be constructive. I hope that it encourages you to be the best GM you can be. Please let me know if I can be of any help. If any of the other players want me to design a PFS legal optimized version of their character, I would be happy to. Just PM me with any details.
Use creatures immune to precision damage. That will reduce his damage a fair bit.
Or you know... will save.
This.
Both are weak points for the swashbuckler.
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If he's strong in will saves, just see if a necromancer or poisoner can't neutralize him on Fort saves, which swashbucklers also have as bad saves.Perhaps you don't quite understand the saving throws of a Swashbuckler. Because he can add charisma to his saves (once per round) they are all decent to good (once per round). Kinda like a Paladin except...you guessed it...once per round.
So even weak saves with weak stat can add up to strong bonuses.
Halflings for example. By level 12 it is reasonable to assume that they will have a +11 Will and +11 Fort saves (+2Con, +1Wis, +4Resistance, +1Will from trait, +1 from Halfling) that is bumped up to a +15 via Charmed Life.The Will save is a couple points higher than most Wizard types and the Fort save is within a point or so of what most Fighter types have.
It require a immediate action. so it can hinder other abilities.
To the OP: In the last sessions the swashbuckler in my group had some serious problem: a construct that routinely use sunder attacks caryatid columns. A one handed weapon is more fragile than a 2 handed weapon (same hardness but less hit points) and with the columns any damage deal the broken condition. Not fun when most of your abilities depend on using the right kind of weapon.
Note that it wasn't done on purpose, those are part of the opposition in 2 published adventures.
The dire tiger too was a problem. Parring something that is large and has a +18 to the attack when you are 6th level isn't so easy.
I'm playing in a campaign with a swashbuckler, and when it comes to damage output, he is pretty powerful. Far more powerful than the other party members.
But he's also died SEVEN times.
They may have their parries and their dodges but in my opinion you don't weaken a swashbuckler by taking away their major class feature, you just hurt them until they withdraw.
Or they die and get reincarnated by their party members just to see what they come back as this time.
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This sounds like a conflict of play style at your table.
You have one player who is a consumate optimizer, and other players that aren't. This kind of problem boils down to having two sets of players that are essentially trying to play different games at the same table, and are ending up resenting each other over it.
There really is no way to solve this problem in-game or by rigorous application of the rules. This can only be solved by an out-of-game discussion between you and your players to hash over expectations and what they want out of the game. Because the only way to play an RPG "wrong" is if someone isn't having fun.
Honestly, the best way to show how ineffective he can be in combat is to remove his primary damage bonus (Precise Strike) and there are several ways to do that (elementals, incorporeal creatures, oozes, swarms, and darkness/blindness).
That would also be my suggestion.
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To echo a thought from the other thread: Mulet, you really need to - and I mean this constructively - work on your GMing skills a bit.
These problems you've been describing don't really seem to be player problems from where most of us are sitting.
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I would also advise to target the weak spots of the class rather than cutting off its main strength. Swashbucklers have 2 weak saves (charmed life only happens so many times per day) and very little combat proficiency outside of melee. Throwing the odd caryatid column, rust monster or elemental/construct/formless (thus immune to precision damage) aberration now and then can be okay, but obviously going for the swashbuckler strikes me as bad manners on the gaming table. And frankly, fae have so many ways to mess with a character´s brain that there are plenty of way to mess with the swashie without as much as touching his weapon. Considering that fae can also have a complex hierarchy, you can probably drop a geas or a similar spell from something a fair bit higher than the party´s current level.
BTW, I am quite curious, what is everyone else playing? Maybe the issue is that they want a different way of playing and the swashbuckler player is doing his own thing... and quite effectively at that, which frustrates the other players.
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These problems you've been describing don't really seem to be player problems from where most of us are sitting.
Not sure if this is true, because it's the other players complaining about the swashbuckler being OP, not the GM themselves. As they do not like to be told that this is only due to the player of the swashbuckler putting in more work in their character than them.
I agree that the solution to this problem shouldn't be to punish the player of the swashbuckler and maybe, just maybe, the real problem might be another one (like incompatible ideas of how the game should be played, or maybe the other player feel that the swashbuckler player hogs the attention, especially when dressing as his own character).
But at the heart of the situation seems to lie a dissent between the players.
It seems though that if the group contains players who are at very different levels of optimization, one of the ways around that is to have the players who are interested in optimization play classes that are intrinsically weak (like the Swashbuckler) and people who are less interested in optimization play classes with very potent class features.
That's really the best way to make a party work when it contains a druid, a sorcerer, a swashbuckler, and a chained monk. If the latter two optimize a whole lot and the former two don't bother all that much you can have a balanced party. If the druid player complains that the inspired blade and the zen archer are showing him or her up, this is likely an instance where the druid player could use some advice from a someone with more systems mastery. After all, the person who knows how to make a really powerful druid (which is not hard), probably wouldn't complain that the highly optimized swashbuckler is "OP" merely that it is "min-maxed" or "overly optimized" which is an aesthetic judgement more than anything else.
I mean, I know that if I take a swashbuckler to a group and I'm the most impressive character in combat, I could probably help improve everybody else's character with friendly advice.
(1) Enemies you fly or who climb walls.
- Ruins a swashbuckler's day
(2) Ambushed by enemies on top of buildings who have ranged weapons.
- Ruins a swashbuckler's day
(3) Fight golems and other monsters you can't backstab (ie: use precise strike)
- Ruins a swashbuckler's day
(4) Fight monsters that target his saving throws
- Ruins a swashbuckler's day
(5) Don't allow stat dumping
- Ruins an optimizer's day
For a salty party...you can also try giving problems that are designed for other players to solve. That way they feel important.
If another character has high intimidation, throw an encounter at the party which can be solved through that. It lets them feel important.
If another player has great fort/will saves, make part of a session be solved using those.
If another player is a trap finder, have an adventure where finding traps is really important. It'll make his choice of character feel like it's needed.
Let the party healer save the day when you find the damsel in distress bleeding out and he gets to save her life.
Ie: Do things which go beyond just combat, so that even if people feel overshadowed in combat they can still go home happy and less salty.
Rapier: use dex to damage (Fencing Grace @level 3)
By level 12 a Swashbuckler can easily do 1d4+3enhancement +7 dex +12 precise +2 Weapon Spec +2 Gr. Weapon Spec. +2 Weapon Training +8 Power Attack = 1d4+36
A level 12 Fighter trying to do the same thing (poor choice?) would have:
1d4+3enhancement+7Dex+2WS +2Gr. WS + 4 Weapon Training +8 Power Attack = 1d4+26
By a similar token, if the fighter just uses a greatsword...
Lets go ahead and change the 7 dex mod to 7 strength mod and without doing anything else the fighter will do 1d10 + 3 enhancement + 10 strength + 4 ws/gws + 4 weapon training + 12 power attack = 1d10 + 33 damage. So damage is comparable.The real problem I've ever had with Swashbucklers is Parry/Riposte, and some of the other deeds that subvert the normal way things work. LIke being immune to disarm and sunder takes Fighters till 20th level. Or how they can trip someone without going against CMD.
I don't like Swashbuckler's, but it's not their damage output that's the problem.