Rapier: use dex to damage (Fencing Grace @level 3)
By level 12 a Swashbuckler can easily do 1d4+3enhancement +7 dex +12 precise +2 Weapon Spec +2 Gr. Weapon Spec. +2 Weapon Training +8 Power Attack = 1d4+36
A level 12 Fighter trying to do the same thing (poor choice?) would have:
1d4+3enhancement+7Dex+2WS +2Gr. WS + 4 Weapon Training +8 Power Attack = 1d4+26
By a similar token, if the fighter just uses a greatsword...
Lets go ahead and change the 7 dex mod to 7 strength mod and without doing anything else the fighter will do 1d10 + 3 enhancement + 10 strength + 4 ws/gws + 4 weapon training + 12 power attack = 1d10 + 33 damage. So damage is comparable.The real problem I've ever had with Swashbucklers is Parry/Riposte, and some of the other deeds that subvert the normal way things work. LIke being immune to disarm and sunder takes Fighters till 20th level. Or how they can trip someone without going against CMD.
I don't like Swashbuckler's, but it's not their damage output that's the problem.
Yup! I was just trying to keep it to the same 'general style of build' in order to forestall 'but Str vs Dex isn't the same!' arguments. Not necessarily the most optimum damage build.
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(3) Fight golems and other monsters you can't backstab (ie: use precise strike)
- Ruins a swashbuckler's day
Golems are not immune to sneak attack or precise strike ("backstab"). You are thinking of a previous version.
Anyway, the rules I can use are:
- Rusting monsters encounter (or rusting grasp)(Rust Girallon)
- Use charm person to request the sword.
- Steal + Improved Steal Combat Maneuvers (Advanced Player's Guide)
- Heat Metal, so he drops it.
- Polymorph Any Object Spell, to turn it into a fish.
Alas.
Rust monsters are a decent idea.
charm person won't work because it isn't dominate person. A charmed person doesn't need to obey their charmer. They just consider that person a friend. I don't expect "hey, can I see your sword" in combat, and outside of combat... how did the spell get cast again?
Steal is for anything except wielded weapons and armor. You're looking for Disarm.
heat metal does an average of 20 hit points of damage over its duration. Only going to make a very low-level character drop their weapon.
polymorph any object has the disadvantage that attended objects get a save, using the owner's modifier.
That all said, you've still got options. A lowly wizard who uses true strike followed by a disarm attempt might be amusing. A fighter with Point Blank Master and a bow could put some rather entertaining holes in his face. A bard with beguiling gift, Heighten Spell and Persistent Spell can be entertaining (here, have some manacles). Give a ghast some class levels (maybe monk) and see how long he can avoid getting paralyzed.
Golems are not immune to sneak attack or precise strike ("backstab"). You are thinking of a previous version.
(3) Fight golems and other monsters you can't backstab (ie: use precise strike)
- Ruins a swashbuckler's day
Oozes, elementals, proteans, and incorporeal creatures still are though, IIRC. So the point "deny Swashbucklers precision damage for an encounter by throwing something immune to it at the party" is valid.
Oozes, elementals, proteans, and incorporeal creatures still are though, IIRC. So the point "deny Swashbucklers precision damage for an encounter by throwing something immune to it at the party" is valid.Golems are not immune to sneak attack or precise strike ("backstab"). You are thinking of a previous version.
(3) Fight golems and other monsters you can't backstab (ie: use precise strike)
- Ruins a swashbuckler's day
I was making a specific comment regarding an invalid element of his point. I did not state that the entire point was invalid.
I didn't want to be rude, I just want to remind that everybody loves fighting oozes. ;)
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to the OP: Don't do it - it's a jerk GM move (at least it is for the reasons you are suggesting). You would be better varying your encounters so different characters get to excel at different times. The advice others have put about mixing in creatures that are immune to precision damage is one example.
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I will second that the best thing to do is have "combats" (actually just things the party needs to overcome) where the swashbuckler can't really contribute.
Knowledge checks, disarming traps, negotiating with people or intimidating them (swashbuckler's have got decent charisma but no class bonuses to those skills and a limited set of skill points, they may not have invested).
If you include things that aren't combat more the swashbuckler wont be able to show off because the swashbuckler can't do much but fight.
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What exactly are the specific complaints? As Claxon has shown, a swashbuckler's damage output is comparable to any well-built melee fighter, and is subpar to many builds, like a pouncing come and get me barbarian.
Breaking the swashbuckler's sword won't fix the problem unless it's some artifact level sword. All it will do is mildly inconvenience the player and would be seen as a ham-fisted approach to cave into your other players.
Talk to your players out of game, and try to give everyone an opportunity to shine. Not everything is going to be decided by melee combat.
If that doesn't work, then throw some will and fortitude saves at the swashbuckler, and see how well he performs. A dex damaging poison would be especially crippling to a swashbuckler, and wouldn't require breaking his sword.
Well, if you're going to take away the sword, why not give something back in return. Maybe some new Gauntlets of Fumbling will help. Drop them in a treasure pile, and include some detail to imply that the swashbuckler should wear them. Maybe with a story reason or something. The problem should work itself out nicely.
One of the most fun ways I ever saw of curbing a particularly impressive damage dealer was a Curse that replicated the effects of Shield Other on anyone they attacked.
In basic mechanical terms, it was simple. Whenever they hit a target, half the damage went to the target and the other half went to them.
The cure for the Curse was that they had to defeat fifty foes without harming them.
One other point I haven't seen mentioned: Do you throw a mix of CR's at the party in the same encounter? I've recently learned to deal with the well-optimized bladebound magus in my party by doing so, and it's been working quite well, so far. (Now, if you want a class that can be highly optimized...)
Alternatively, if the swash's saves are only sky-high once a round, and you want to let a different class shine, including a bunch of Will- or Fort-dealing monsters in the same fight will be more effective than one much stronger one.
In terms of stealing the sword (if the rest of your responders haven't talked you out of it):
>> Is he actually sleeping with fey, while keeping his sword "attended"? I'd hope not! What a waste! So now you need a set-up, that's all -- and the big question isn't HOW but WHY? Who among the fey wants his sword? Why do they want that particular sword enough to arrange a "trade" for a swordfish or stick or whatever? (I like the aforementioned swordfish, btw, but they're big, aren't they?)
>> You could have him arrested and imprisoned, with his armor & weaponry naturally confiscated. The only trick here is that his teammates might not want to help rescue him, and that would hurt. OTOH, if one of them has high CHA and could shine as his defense counsel...
>> You could have someone offer trades for gear with all the PCs. His replacement sword turns out to be not as good as he'd thought...
Wait!
You could have someone offer trades for gear with all the PCs. They offer what look like great trades to everyone, but the sword he's offered turns out to be only minorly better, while everyone else gets a big upgrade. You're not taking anything from the one PC, just helping to boost the others, that way.
One of the most fun ways I ever saw of curbing a particularly impressive damage dealer was a Curse that replicated the effects of Shield Other on anyone they attacked.
In basic mechanical terms, it was simple. Whenever they hit a target, half the damage went to the target and the other half went to them.
The cure for the Curse was that they had to defeat fifty foes without harming them.
I really like your suggestion! It's utterly thematic for the fey to invoke such a curse, and the method of removing the curse was particularly inventive. Certainly the OP can modify the removal condition as needed to fit the story. (50 foes seems a bit harsh.)
It would be a supernatural ability to inflict such a curse, so presumably nothing as banal as Remove Curse would help? Perhaps Break Enchantment would, but it may need at least a Limited Wish (which is presumably beyond this party's reach). All to the good.
Alternatively, it being the fey, it would be easy to have five or six relatively low-level ones w/ spell-likes vs. Fort or Will overwhelm him in one turn. To set it up, the OP could have a high-ranking fey challenge the swashbuckler, and then switch it to have this mob of low-ranks be his "champion." (And that way the GM gets to show the other players as well that action economy trumps damage-dealing.)
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there's a spell, that i've waiting for my sorcerer to try on an enemy:
Demand Offering.
A spellcaster with the proper buffs can negate a Swashbuckler's Charmed Life, and just walk off with the Swashbuckler's rapier.
I do like the idea of camp raids. unless someone is keeping watch while they are all asleep, have things steal from the party as a whole- don't just single out the swashbuckler- steal the cleric's holy symbol, steal the bard's instrument, steal the alchemist's alchemy kit... steal pages from the wizard's spell book.
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its still a poor idea to punish a slightly above average martial for doing what martials are suposta do just because every one else in the party has poorly made characters.....
Exactly that. I would NOT take his sword away! I have felt like the GM was targeting me at some point and it's a really bad feeling.
If you think he's OP, sit down with the other PCs and help them build their characters better.
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There's a ways you can handle this, I have dealt with my fair share of munchkins, so as not to attack the poor munchkin individually.
- Create custom intelligent magical items for each player, and they have to name them. Magical items can really help.
- If the wizard is struggling, give him an upgrading Ring of Wizardry, it demands that before preparing spells he do something like a quick game of monster jeopardy.
- The swashbuckler, give him a magical sword, his sword demands that he never attack a person that doesn't have a weapon that isn't drawn or hasn't attacked.
- Include additional peons into the fight. This way it is entertaining for everyone. Bust out the NPC codex encounters and let them go in group. You can use NPC classes and give them team work feats or the bodyguard/in harms way chain, which is a fun challenging combination. Do not give them experience for these guys :) Give them the loot though :)
- For example, the boss is a 7th level wizard. Give him a group of warriors as allies who has the soul purpose of being body guards (I recommend half his level). So a 4th level Wizard, would have 4 2nd level warriors, a 10th level wizard will have 4 5th level warriors, so on and so forth. After level 10, they are instead 3/4's of the characters level. My warriors (usually Human) feats are toughness at alternating levels.
Here are my Warriors Feat up to level 15:
Human Combat Reflexes, 1st level Bodyguard, 3rd level Toughness, 5th level In Harms Way, 7th level Toughness, 9th level Power Attack, 11th level Toughness, 13th level Deadly Aim, 15th level Toughness.
We also made a house rule that toughness scales more.
Toughness
Benefit: You gain gain +1 hit points per Hit Die. (Minimum +3 hps) At 5th level, this increases to +2 hit points per Hit Die. At 10th level, this increases to +3 hit points per Hit Die. At 15th level, this increases to +4 hit points per Hit Die. At 20th level, this increases to +5 hit points per Hit Die.
This makes the fight more challenging for everyone and they can get a few stabs in.
- Include challenges that involve skill checks and the like.
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We are old fashioned and allow to take it more then once. We have alot of 3.5 converts that we try to mesh with in our group.
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We are old fashioned and allow to take it more then once. We have alot of 3.5 converts that we try to mesh with in our group.
Except that 3.5 only allowed characters to take Toughness more than once because it only gave +3 HP numerically and didn't scale. (And it was pretty horrible beyond the first couple levels.)
Toughness already scales.
Frankly - your version of Toughness, especially if you can take it multiple times - is a horrible rule.
It also punishes martials as their inherently higher HP matters far less, and dealing damage matters less in comparison to SOS & SOD spells.
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Not when you are dealing with multiple munchkins who live and breathe every optimization guide :) Every group is different. That and the only ones who really do take toughness are the minions anyways. Most of our player's have more important feats to take for their munchkinry.
I understand where you are coming from though however these guys aren't tough at level 10. Especially against a group of 12th level characters against a 14th level boss. Have to remember, they don't have many terrific magical items. They don't have high ability scores. All they are is hit points, with a hint of damage. Remember, their array is a 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. They don't have evasion and similar abilities (uncanny dodge, divine grace, rage, sneak attack, spellcasting). They promote wizards to cast fireball, etc as well which as many have said, fireball loses beauty at higher levels in pathfinder. Wise man once said, don't knock it til you try it :) These encounters highlight wizards, sorcerers through evocation and offensive spells, promotes healing and buffing from clerics and druids, allows crowd control for druids, and it encourages teamwork for rogues vs. solo work which is the problem he is encountering as the swashbuckler seems to be taking the spotlight. Lastly, player's will see enemies fail saves more frequently. It makes everyone feel more accomplished and enjoy the game further. Unless the fighter rolls a 1, the fighter/ranger/paladin will be able to hit. They are also always going to be smiteable by the paladin. Spells such as Finger of Death feel more umph by the wizard as well as spells such as Phantasmal Killer, and various other SoD spells.
Human warrior 4
CE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception –1
DEFENSE
AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +3 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 30 (4d10+8)
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +0
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk scimitar +6 (1d6+1/18–20)
Ranged mwk heavy crossbow +8 (1d10/19–20) or throwing axe +7 (1d6+1)
TACTICS
During Combat The warrior uses her crossbow until she is in boarding range, then switches to her scimitar.
STATISTICS
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 9
Base Atk +4; CMB +5; CMD 19
Feats Human Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, Toughness
Skills Acrobatics +6, Climb +6, Intimidate +6, Profession (sailor) +3, Swim +17
Languages Common, Orc
Combat Gear elixir of swimming, potion of bull's strength, potions of cure light wounds (2), potion of jump, alchemist's fire; Other Gear studded leather, masterwork heavy crossbow with 10 bolts, masterwork scimitar, throwing axe, 231 gp
Human warrior 10
NE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +4
DEFENSE
AC 19, touch 15, flat-footed 15 (+3 armor, +1 deflection, +3 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 shield)
hp 135 (10d10+80)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +2
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 short sword +13/+8 (1d8+3)
Ranged dart +13 (1d4+2)
STATISTICS
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 11
Base Atk +10; CMB +12; CMD 27
Feats Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, Toughness x2, In Harms Way, Power Attack
Skills Acrobatics +12, Intimidate +8, Perception +4, Sense Motive +9
Languages Common
Combat Gear potion of cure moderate wounds, potion of heroism; Other Gear studded leather, +1 short sword, darts (10), belt of giant strength +2, ring of protection +1, antitoxin, 240 gp
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Toughness
Benefit: You gain gain +1 hit points per Hit Die. (Minimum +3 hps) At 5th level, this increases to +2 hit points per Hit Die. At 10th level, this increases to +3 hit points per Hit Die. At 15th level, this increases to +4 hit points per Hit Die. At 20th level, this increases to +5 hit points per Hit Die.
Ugh? And people can take it more than once? This dramatically changes the game. At level 20, toughness is giving you the HP benefit of 10 extra CON. Yikes.
With your character taking it three times, you have the benefit to hit points of 30 extra CON. That completely changes game balance.
In a world where everyone has 3x the hit points they are supposed to, smart enemies/players will go after saves instead.
I really wish people would think things over more before getting ridiculous house rules that make things 5x as strong as they used to be...
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yeah, however there are so many ways to deal with it especially when you are dealing with munchkins that are starved for feats anyways. Makes it really fun at times when they are hacking through hit points. That and mythic itself adds more then even that. Some people forget that there are rules that are similar. 100 hit points at level 20 from one feat I can deal with that relatively easily. Especially when you allow all sources from the d20pfsrd and have been playing and purchasing pdf's from pathfinder. I love all the new editions.
Kineticist at level 20 = 20d6+20 as a standard action, 40d6+40 as a quicken spell. Average damage = 180 hps; maximized 20d6+20 = 140 hps.
my group normally uses 18-20 crit weapons, the exception is the falcata 19-20/x3 crit. With keen a rapier becomes a 15-20 crit. Level 20 fighter with 30 str, power attack, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization wielding a falchion inflicts an average of 53 points of damage on a normal hit. 106 on a critical hit. Should each attack hit that would be 265 points of damage, not including anything special, or crits. Ideally one of those attacks will be a crit, and two will miss. Rogues aren't exempt from this as well with kukri's, using the same math of 3 hits, 1 miss from main hand and off hand for a total of 6 hits, that would be 60d6+6d4+30 (+5 weapons) points of damage if they have a strength score of a 10. That's 258 points of damage.
So far my party (Kineticist, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue) with only three people have inflicted 693 points of damage, without any buffs from the cleric.
Bokrug, a CR 27 monster with an AC of a 45 and 645 hit points (780 hit points if maxed). Would be KO'd.
Fighter has a bab of a 20, strength modifier 10, Weapon training 5, weapon focus and greater weapon focus +5 enhancement = +42 to hit.
That's the reason why our group does the toughness thing. My player's love to maximize their killing ability. Which makes other members in the group twiddle their thumbs.
Using the rules I mentioned, Bokrug would have 4 level 20 warriors guarding him. Not the most impressive guards as they won't be anywhere near the power of the fighter, but they will do well in ensuring that the combat is a memorable one so Bokrug could at least do a few of the abilities he has listed in the monster entry and everyone would be able to act and take part.
My group has been playing D&D for the past 12 years, our newest member has hit his 2nd year playing with us. Trust me, do the honor squad and your group will love you because they all can contribute and do team work instead of solowork.
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If your group is still chewing through HP when foes have their hitpoints inflated so much - I don't think that they're nearly the optimizers that you seem to think that they are.
And my complaint isn't primarily from being OP for characters to take (though it is) it's how much it invalidates dealing damage and therefore martials as a combat tactic - which is already sub-par at high levels. If your players are still dealing damage as their primary tactic despite that, they don't actually have very much system mastery.
Nah, this damage is just a basic amount of damage with no optimization what so ever. This is just basic/standard stuff. Not even touching anything in the d20pfsrd. As far as high levels, martial characters are the best at higher levels. Especially ranged martial characters. I was just demonstrating basic styles at higher levels and that the key is adjusting encounters based on experience level. More experienced the player, more challenges you have to provide as well as the story you are trying to tell. Adventure Paths are guides. ^_^ Don't attack the player. Improve the encounters so the group can enjoy it more. As others have said, use oozes, elementals, and the like if you must, but the player will feel targeted. I find adding more is more enjoyable. What works for one group, doesn't always work for others. Pathfinder provides an excellent baseline with their adventure paths, and it's really easy to upgrade.
Charon's little helper might not like my system, but my group does. I enjoy DMing which is why I brought it up as a suggestion. It's your table, your rules. You know your player's strengths and their weaknesses. But trust me, pathfinder fighters at high levels out damage most classes.
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nah, this damage is just a basic amount of damage with no optimization what so ever. This is just basic stuff. Not even touching anything in the d20pfsrd. As far as high levels, martial characters are the best at higher levels. Especially ranged martial characters.
You do realize that this (bolded) statement is nonsensical right?
The CRB rules are in the d20pfsrd. Ergo, your statement is the same thing as saying: "Not even touching anything in the Core Rulebook." :)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
nah, this damage is just a basic amount of damage with no optimization what so ever. This is just basic stuff. Not even touching anything in the d20pfsrd. As far as high levels, martial characters are the best at higher levels. Especially ranged martial characters.You do realize that this (bolded) statement is nonsensical right?
The CRB rules are in the d20pfsrd. Ergo, your statement is the same thing as saying: "Not even touching anything in the Core Rulebook." :)
Sorry non-core rulebook is a better thing to say :) Thank you Gauss :P
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As far as high levels, martial characters are the best at higher levels. Especially ranged martial characters.
Yeah...
I'm glad that you have fun with your game - but that is not what anyone else I've ever talked to has found. Casters, especially wizards, dominate high level play if they know what they're doing at all.
I or anyone else could show you such builds which dominate any sort of martial.
Though - I also saw above that you use mythic - which I wouldn't touch with a 39.5 foot pole - so balance probably isn't your main concern. *shrug*
You are on :) I will play against you :) I will be a straight fighter ^_^ Just remember this, Pathfinder is not designed to be a PVP game. It is designed to be a teamwork game. Which is why I recommended that he add more to make things more fun for the other players.
If you want to have a fun match though you can choose the level. However, no one time use items.
References : Anything on the Paizo PRD.
Races: Core Races only :)
15,14,13,12,10,8 array since we are testing classes.
Arena: 10 ft. radius per level. Both of us start on opposite sides.
Gotta remember, range is a thing for spellcasters. Scorching Ray, disintegrate etc. are close range spells (25 ft. plus 5 ft. per two caster levels).
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I'll be a level 20 wizard. So we have a 200' arena and we start on opposite sides? Great.
Assuming no pre-buffing or can I have spells up at the start?
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To keep on topic, I created this topic: Fun Match.
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Oliver, fighting a wizard with any martial non-caster ends poorly for the martial unless they just completely get the jump on the caster.
The caster would be astrally projecting from their demiplane and have several creatures bound via planar ally and start throwing spells which disable you even if you make the save.
Even if the wizard isn't allowed to start with such things if he's got a round before you reach him he casts some summon spells and then teleports or flies away while you have to deal with that. And then he starts throwing spells to disable you.
At high levels is where martial characters suck, compared to casters.
hmm.. .the OP asked the question 5 days ago and has not responded to any of the previous 84 comments... That makes me question the motives of the original post...
hmm.. .the OP asked the question 5 days ago and has not responded to any of the previous 84 comments... That makes me question the motives of the original post...
Maybe a sword now sits at the bottom of a riverbed. Who can say?
hmm.. .the OP asked the question 5 days ago and has not responded to any of the previous 84 comments... That makes me question the motives of the original post...
At least some of his posts and the responses to those posts were removed.
Additionally, awhile back he basically called the matter settled.
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I'll also toss in the question of HOW he's considered OP?
I'm enjoying my Swashbuckler... and admittedly have not played him very long, with more of a fun build than optimized build... but still??? I've found he's very competent in some situations... and utterly useless in others.
For example.. in the 2 nights I started playing him... We fought skeletal undead which he could do nothing against with his rapier. His strength absolutely sucked, so any ranged attacks had to be dealt with by others... His strength sucked badly, so when we came across shadow creatures at level 3 with just my rapier... I had to actively flee the battle. And he was nearly killed by something else... but that adventure was a bloodbath.... probably not related to the class ;)
Against corporeal enemies who could be stabbed, he did pretty well. He was operating at about +9 to hit and D4+7 damage with crit range18-20 so he was a lot of fun... but I certainly haven't seen anything that is truly abusable...
Skeletons are not immune to piercing damage, they just have DR5/Bludgeoning. So you should have been doing something to them.
They are not immune to critical hits either so your Precise Strike should have been hurting them.Ranged attacks: use crossbow
Rapier: use dex to damage (Fencing Grace @level 3)
By level 12 a Swashbuckler can easily do 1d4+3enhancement +7 dex +12 precise +2 Weapon Spec +2 Gr. Weapon Spec. +2 Weapon Training +8 Power Attack = 1d4+36
A level 12 Fighter trying to do the same thing (poor choice?) would have:
1d4+3enhancement+7Dex+2WS +2Gr. WS + 4 Weapon Training +8 Power Attack = 1d4+26
Yep, not immune to piercing, but that DR 5 was a killer. It was an undead skeletal giant... so regardless of the little minor damage I was doing to it... One hit was all it took to drop me in the negatives.
Level 12 may be fun if I get to it... but right now we're level 3. D4 +7 (counting precise strike) damage, Fencing Grace... and He's great at what he's great at... and sucky against anything NOT in his wheelhouse.
I see a lot of potential with the class, but I also see so many weak spots I just don't see it as OP...
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Yup utter dickishness for no reason.
Thank you for doing the math! Penash and hero points do add a bit more grunt. He also rests frequently.
-...
Disclaimer: I have never played or played with a Swashbuckler.
Don't do 15 minute adventuring days, so he has to spread abilities out over multiple instances. Will make Panache restore less frequently, and Charmed Life is also a set number per day.