Any good Eldritch Knight builds?


Advice


I have an NPC villain in mind and am (for now) envisioning him as an eldritch knight (I'm purposely avoiding magus or bloodrager because the I've already built several of those). Are there any good, strong, builds for this prestige class? The players are pretty much all optimized PCs so I need a strong build.


Dot


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The EK doesn't offer much so it's hard to make them too different.
Monk + empyreal sorcerer makes a wis based EK.
Barb is probably better than fighter as rage is nice, could even go bloodrager and get mad magic to cast your other spells while raging.
A wizard with a school boosting weapons is good. Trasmutation or wood maybe?


Monk + sor is going to have a bad BaB. Buyer beware.


I have an Eldritch Knight for PFS (so I had a couple of blows to the knee cap to keep him in line), but he's been fun. Scroll Master Wizard/Vanilla Fighter. Utilizes Mithral Chain and the Arcane Armor Feats. Transmutation School, -Necro and - Enchantment (This was a personal choice, any is good for a caster focused on scrolls). I carry as many high level scrolls as possible to have a high shield bonus. Focused on AC and Short Swords for Feats except to get Knowledge is Power arcane discovery (I intend on getting extend metamagic feat for his buffs).

All I can say is that if you give NPC's traits go for Magical Knack, so that way he does not lose any caster levels for his dip into martial and into the prestige class itself.

Uses spells as primary tactics, Buff your NPC (Haste is a life saver, as is mirror image and any miss chance spell), Debuff the players (Slow sucks, especially for players), Blast (A fireball is never bad), whatever spell you can unleash until they come close. Then you surprise them with sudden martial ferocity. You should have plenty of spells, so use them while fighting when possible, target weak saves and it the fight should be more than challenging. Add in a couple of mooks and you'll be good.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Monk + sor is going to have a bad BaB. Buyer beware.

And doesn't qualify because they aren't proficient in all martial weapons.

Antipaladin/Sorcerer could be good.

Pure Wizard(no EK) can actually be surprisingly hard-hitting with transmutation spells. My Arcanist/Dragon Disciple certainly enjoys all the stat bonuses and Natural Armor he's got from his bloodline, Eldritch Heritage(Orc), and class features.

Alternatively, Spheres of Power gives us the Mageknight.

Silver Crusade

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I think the traditional builds involve hellknight signifier. Standard entries are probably either:

(Anti)Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight/Hellknight
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight/Hellknight
Fighter 1/Arcanist 6/Eldritch Knight/Hellknight

Fighter can get a bit better by taking the lore warden archetype. Get free combat expertise and some bonus skills for eschewing armor types you probably won't wear anyway.

Arcanist has the blade adept archetype that lets them steal some magus tricks at the cost of being stuck with a one-handed slashing or piercing weapon as their arcane bond. A few exploits like dimensional slide stand out too. Being able to make a single attack (especially with a reach weapon) and then dimensional slide away to ensure another AoO could be advantageous.

For weapon choices, using a two handed weapon--particularly a reach weapon--is a solid choice for a few reasons. 1. It leaves a hand available for spellcasting. 2. If you wanted to wield a one-handed weapon, you could have just been a magus. 3. Enlarge person and similar buffs combine well with reach weapons. 4. Reach weapons and the AoOs they can provide are nice

Improved Trip is a pretty solid low-mid level strategy. Lore Warden gets you one of the feats for free, it synergizes nicely with reach, and it also works well with enlarge person, true strike, ray of enfeeblement and other eldritch knight tricks. Polymorphing is another solid-looking strategy. Eldritch Knights eventually get better polymorph spells than maguses and have the BAB and feats to take advantage of the powerful forms.

Dealing with spell failure. Arcane armor training plus a mithral chain shirt is one technique. Downside is limited armor class and giving up the action economy advantage that you would otherwise get from quickened spells. Another technique is sucking it up and relying on no somatic component spells (there are a few good ones) and the still spell feat. Downside is reduced casting ability.

General role: The big question for an Eldritch Knight is, "what do you do that a magus or a full wizard/sorcerer/arcanist couldn't do better?" Since magus has combat action economy going for it and full casters have better spells, the answer will often have to be some kind of switch hitter, relying on having better spells than the magus (starting at level 6 or so, but really there won't be a big advantage until level 10+ when 4th and 5th level spells start to come on line for the eldritch knight), and better fighting ability than the full caster. It's a tough needle to thread.


sohei monk, sorry that wasn't clear.

Grand Lodge

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Yes.

Level 1: Barbarian
Level 2-7: Arcanist
Level 8+: Eldritch Knight

For earlier levels you can use dimensional slide to hop past front lines and hit the squishy targets for nearly no effort, rage, smack them down, and then the next round pop out of rage and slide back out to sling some evocations. Overall your attack won't be absolutely maximized, but rage helps counter that, and a two-handed weapon will ensure good damage output.

For later levels you dig deep into the dimensional dervish line and transmutation. Be Mage Armor'ed almost always, rod of quicken to bring up Shield and then cast beast shape 2 for a gargoyle form. Ring of protection + ammy of natural armor will get your AC into stupid levels (40-50). Next round full round attack, letting you port around the battlefield doing large amounts of damage with your ~6 or so attacks (you can still use your armor and weapon in this form too), and end up in the air using your wings to fly. The party will spend a round getting themselves into the air, letting you destroy their mages in the meantime while landing some nasty hits on their front-liners, all without much opportunity to strike back. Eventually they'll ready actions to hit you, but that's a lot less DPS than what you'll be putting out. As long as you don't eat a save-or-die/suck early on (which is a problem for any villan), you'll be quite the challenge.


Unchained Sohei monk + Emphyreal sorcerer doesn't lose much bab compared to Magus or any compared to regular EK builds

I have always liked this build though I do change a few things out ussually


unchained can't legally be a sohei.


I am building a dwarf monk/sorcerer intending to go EK as a replacemnet character for Giantslayer. Empyreal bloodline + eldritch scrapper. Sohei + possibly master of many styles. AC vs giants is good. Attack bonus is pathetic. Will use a guisame for trip attacks with reach using true strike. Main contribution initially will probably be casting Enlarge Person.


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Arcane Strike can make weapons magic. I like Catch-Off Guard to smack people with a shovel. Why? The Surprise Weapon Trait gives a +2 attack bonus roll.


This may go against your not building a magus decision, but I've been thinking about building a character around 1 level of magus( or 2 if you don't mind losing a caster level) transmuter wizard and eldritch knight. This would let you use spell combat to transform into a monstrous humanoid or dragon and full attack in the same round. The high level polymorph spells would be on your normal action economy though.

edit: now that I wrote it down I'm not sure you could use monstrous physique and use all of the natural attacks the spell provides in the same turn, off to the rules forum.


Chess Pwn wrote:
unchained can't legally be a sohei.

Which is pretty much the primary complaint about unchained. It is a monk fix that pushes out all the other monk fixes.

If you could grade the good monk archetypes while unchained, then yes, it would have been a straight upgrade. Right now, it is a side grade with some nice perks. It just doesn't differentiate itself from normal monk with archetypes (or even brawlers) to be seen as a straight upgrade, which is a sharp comparison with unchained rogues (who have to compete with slayers and ninjas; but it is a great debuffer with dex to damage built in, while slayers get free TWF adn skill boosts while ninjas get invisibility).

Sohei in particular competes with it as a martial characters, and sohei has the advantages of 'easier to build to build since it uses regular items' and 'easier to survive early on without being a turtle'.


EK works less well as a 'Wizard who fights like a Fighter' and more like a 'Wizard who has 3/4thish BaB and D10 hit points for a good amount of levels'

Using that BaB, that gives us a lot of swanky options for spells that otherwise would have been s*~! (most attack based spells that aren't touch attacks) and we don't peel in half when we get hit by something our multiple defensive spells wouldn't have otherwise have stopped. In addition, our saves should be pretty reasonable across the board and we get some spare combat feats, a few of which we might like. Play any EK as a wizard would be played and you would get about the same mileage, since with Magical Knack you still get CL 20th and you still reach 9th level spells at higher levels. You could also go sorcerer but you would have to wait even longer for 9th level spells, though an Eldritch Scrapper can get the ball rolling for good combat feats if that interests you. That, and you don't have to buy all your spells as you level.

(I mention this EVERY time EK gets brought up but...) The biggest and meanest trick is Telekinesis. With that sick BaB and your huge Int/Cha, you can get dozens of colossal Sawtooth Sabres and hurl them at enemies with telekinesis for an unreasonable amount of damage. At level 11-12, assuming wizard 5/martial 1/EK 5, or sorcerer 6/martial 1/EK 5, we can hurl about 8 or so colossal swords doing 6d6 damage each at BAB 7-8+spellcasting stat. Might not be FANTASTIC and I am sure a dedicated archer can outpace you at that level, but it does get better and better as your BaB and spellcasting stat increases. Not to mention, you are a caster. You have plenty of tricks available.


A friend did an arcanist (blade adept)/fighter/eldritch knight last game, which seemed fairly potent to me.

Silver Crusade

I played a gnome eldritch knight to level 13. It was in a 3.5 campaign, so Vorg was probably less powerful than he would be if rebuilt using pathfinder rules.

At low levels I was roguish. Used stealth and divination a lot, low damage output. At higher levels, once I had Craft Magic Arms and Armour, I became a bit of a monster. Holy bow with undead bane arrows and a couple of archery feats made me an effective damage dealer (campaign featured a lot of undead), and later I made a sunsword.

Used layered defenses with spells (greater invisibility, fire shield etc).


Can't see how EK is viable with magus existence.


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666bender wrote:
Can't see how EK is viable with magus existence.

Mostly wizard spell list and the ability to get level 9 spells. I think that is their main claim to fame now. They are far less melee oriented and more magic oriented. Magus is a melee class that can spam some high damage touch spells, while eldritch knight is more just a wizard that can use a sword.


Magus can splash some missing wizard spells in the build with Essex and with spell recall have the same number of spells .
Add hexes and wow.


666bender wrote:
Can't see how EK is viable with magus existence.

Arcanist (Soul Blade) 9, Fighter 1, EK 10 has 9 levels of wizard spells and a BAB of 15. Looks stronger to me than a magus, honestly. Maybe a little less solid as a straight up martial, but the spell list would more than amply make up for it imo.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Xexyz wrote:
I have an NPC villain in mind and am (for now) envisioning him as an eldritch knight (I'm purposely avoiding magus or bloodrager because the I've already built several of those). Are there any good, strong, builds for this prestige class? The players are pretty much all optimized PCs so I need a strong build.

What do you want from the character? There are several strong choices:

For a ranged character, [fighter or ranger*] 1/wizard 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +X is hard to beat.

For melee, you can go swashbuckler (inspired blade) 1/arcanist (blade adept) 6/eldritch knight +X and use a black blade rapier with Eldritch Blade and Spellstrike exploits for a magus-like character. Alternately, you can go barbarian (brutal pugilist) 2/sorcerer 4/dragon disciple 4/eldritch knight +X (or even barbarian (brutal pugilist) 2/skald (spell warrior) 1/wizard (Transmutation/Shapechange school) 2/dragon disciple 4 (advance wizard spellcasting)/eldritch knight +X) for a more "brute force" concept.

If you want stronger defenses, (anti)paladin 2-3/sorcerer 6/eldritch knight +X (or (anti)paladin 2/sorcerer 3/dragon disciple 4/eldritch knight +X) can work well.

*- depending on whether you want an extra feat or if you want a +2 from Favored Enemy (probably Humanoid (Human)) and the ability to use wands of cure light wounds, wands of barkskin, etc. without Use Magic Device checks.


Hmm, if you want to set him apart from a magus or bloodrager, there are a few things where an EK is different and the difference is obvious:

a) EK can build on any full BAB class, but you will likely only spend 1 level on it. The according Core classes are not so interesting here, but a cavalier or a swashbuckler might make a memorable opponent, thanks to the mount / dodging panache.

b) He has early access to high level spells, because he will likely lose only 2 levels of spell progression (1 for the full BAB class, 1 for first level of EK). This means quickened level 1 spells at character level 11. Might be worth it for Vanish, at least.

c) EK has quite some trouble with using armor. While Arcane Armor Training / Mastery exists, both feats need a swift action - which is already necessary for quickened spells and Arcane Strike. I'd give him some bracers of armor - which also helps to set him apart from magus and bloodrager.

So an example build would be:

Elf
Swashbuckler 1, wizard 5, eldritch knight x
Several metamagic feats (see below)
Improved Iron Will & Improved Great Fortitude, if possible
+x shocking burst rapier (not optimal but fancy)
Bracers of armor +x

Some nice spells might be:

Offense
* Fireball with Selective Spell (needs character level 10 or 11)
* Wall of Ice (to divide the battlefield in his favor)
* Vanish (combined with 5 ft step or Quicken)
* Monstrous Physique (as a last resort, always good for a surprise)

Defense (preferably casted before combat)
* Shocking Image (Mirror Image + electricity damage on hit)
* (Minor) Globe of Invulnerability (to play the higher CL card, even if it's frustrating for the PC casters)
* Shield, Protection from Good and a few other rather mundane defenses

Silver Crusade

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My "EK" character is currently level 4 (Fighter 1 / Wizard 3) and was a CORE PFS character.

Current Feats I have: PBShot, Precise Shot, Spell Focus: Necromancy, and Arcane Armor Training. I also went with the Universalist school to have 9 uses of "Hand of the Apprentice" per a day. Later on I'll upgrade to a +1 Spell-Storing Elven Curveblade but at 4th level I'm currently at +10atk, 1d10+1dmg with 18-20/x2 crit.

Here's the build I had written out:
Class – Universalist Wizard 5 / Fighter 1 / Eldritch Knight 5
Race – Elf

Traits -
* Magical Knack
* Reactionary

Arcane Bond –
* Bonded Weapon: Elven Curveblade

Stats -
Str: 11
Dex: 16 (+2 racial)
Con: 12 (-2 racial)
Int: 19 (+2 racial)
Wis: 10
Cha: 7

1) Fighter 1: Bab +1 | Point Blank Shot (lvl 1), Precise Shot (Fighter)
2) Wizard 1: Bab +1 | Spell Focus: Necromancy (Wizard)
3) Wizard 2: Bab +2 | Arcane Armor Training (lvl 3)
4) Wizard 3: Bab +2 | +1 Int
5) Wizard 4: Bab +3 | Weapon Finesse (lvl 5)
6) Wizard 5: Bab +3 |
7) Eldritch Knight 1: Bab +4 | Arcane Armor Mastery (lvl 7), Combat Casting (EK)
8) Eldritch Knight 2: Bab +5 | +1 Int
9) Eldritch Knight 3: Bab +6 | Metamagic: Bouncing Spell (lvl 9)
10) Eldritch Knight 4: Bab +7 |
11) Eldritch Knight 5: Bab +8 | Spell Penetration (lvl 11), Disrupting Shot (EK)

Not sure if it could use some improvements but it's built around being a Ray Caster and Save-or-Suck Caster with some AC/HP to have a better chance of staying alive.


Swashbuckler 1/Sorcerer 6/EK X would be a good charisma build


Why not Arcane Archer?

Zen Archer Monk/Empyreal Sorcerer/Arcane Archer X


I like the Pact Wizard from Haunted Heroes Handbook when it comes to building EKs, simply because of the fact that getting access to buffs like Divine Favor / Divine Power makes quite a bit of a difference when it comes to accuracy, and is something that a Magus/Bloodrager won't have access to :)


You could use a monster with innate casting as a basis.


My favorite is wizard VMC battle oracle picking up the Skill at Arms revelation and then just going Wizard 5/EK 10.


666bender wrote:

Magus can splash some missing wizard spells in the build with Essex and with spell recall have the same number of spells .

Add hexes and wow.

I am not saying magus isn't good, or that it doesn't have tricks. Heck, it is even a nicer finished package and more thematic blend of magic and melee.

EK just has a slightly different niche it can fill. Higher level spells and more general spells. Not exactly exciting on its own, but it has its strength.


Here are some ideas for Reach Eldritch Knight builds (except that one of them is not actually an Eldritch Knight, but does something similar). The Reach Eldritch Knight is not so much attempting to be a Magus alternative as the arcane equivalent of a Reach Cleric (also see discussion thread). Unfortunately, due to the SLA FAQ nerf, it doesn't help much to link to the old Eldritch Knight guide, but we're going to use Variant MultiClassing (Magus) and an Elven Branched Spear to salvage something -- it just won't be the same, since Eldritch Knight's capstone (Spell Critical, which is actually pretty nice with the right weapon) will be unavoidably pushed beyond the end of most games, and our Base Attack Bonus will be lower until getting to such levels where the game is about to end, but on the other hand, VMC Magus is going to let us put back in a bit of Magus stuff after all and even help with the combat maneuvers. (Note that I often use Bloodrager for the martial dip.)

Here's my idea of how to use VMC Magus + regular multiclassing + an Elven Branched Spear to make a decent Reach Eldritch Knight build (errata: VMC Magus doesn't give you effective Magus levels for the purpose of determining effect of Magus Arcana, which hoses use of Maneuver Mastery, so pick another Magus Arcana instead, or see one of the builds below that actually gets around this problem). Note that Dirty Fighting makes Combat Expertise (from Lore Warden Fighter 2nd level) partially obsolete, but it's still hard to say no to getting it free. At some point I might want to redo that build to use just 1 level of martial class and replace Combat Expertise with Dirty Fighting, to reduce the loss of spellcasting progression and make a Sorcerer version viable.

Here's a different Reach Eldritch Knight build. Then scroll down 3 posts for yet another one. These use a Bloodrager dip and Transmuter Wizard to get into Eldritch Knight (another option would be to use Exploiter Wizard and get the Arcanist Exploits School Understanding and Bloodline Development -- the former gives you a shadow of the Transmutation (Enhancement) Arcane School, while the latter progresses your Bloodrager Bloodline).

Here's my idea of how to use a Bloodrager dip (and Mad Magic) and the Arcane Exploit Bloodline Development with VMC Magus to make Blade Adept Arcanist actually viable. (Also see the posts below the linked one for more thoughts.) This is a Gish that is neither an Eldritch Knight nor a Magus nor a Warpriest nor a pre-Errata Scarred Witch Doctor, yet it's set up to do the Eldritch Knight schtick. It progresses the Bloodrager Bloodline (instead of a Sorcerer Bloodline) with Bloodline Development and eventually gets the Knowledge is Power Magus Arcana (normally unusable for non-Magi even when they use VMC Magus to pick up Magus Arcana, but Blade Adept Arcanist gives effective Magus levels to make it work, even though Blade Adept Arcanist can't take this Magus Arcana by itself). It needs to use a Light or One-Handed weapon due to the Blade Adept archetype description, so get your Reach with the Aberrant Bloodrager Bloodline or Longarm, or preferably both.

At one point, I would have recommended Orc Scarred Witch Doctor (+4 Strength makes up for several levels of 1/2 BAB), but the Scarred Witch Doctor errata of a few months ago killed this, even though it made otherwise conventional Half-Orc Scarred Witch Doctors overpowered (did the errata writers forget that Half-Orcs can put that +2 ANYWHERE?). Post-Errata Scarred Witch Doctor is far from weak, but R. I. P. a lot of interesting builds. And VMC Witch is approximately ties with VMC Gunslinger for the absolute worst VMC available, so if you want a Witch-style gish, you are going to need to go with White-Haired Witch (which is hard to get to work, and doesn't have Hexes) or better yet, Hexcrafter Magus (has Hexes, and might even have enough feats left over to also go for Whip/Scorpion Whip for One-Handed Reach abuse).


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
deuxhero wrote:

Why not Arcane Archer?

Zen Archer Monk/Empyreal Sorcerer/Arcane Archer X

Arcane archer, after gaining Imbue Arrow (and possibly Enhance Arrows (Elemental)), really doesn't provide a whole lot. Especially since all of the other arrow tricks are limited times per day and/or cannot be used with Imbue Arrow. That third lost level of casting progression (on top of monk levels) absolutely prevents 9th level spells.

[Fighter or ranger] 1/wizard 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8 ends up with +17 BAB and spell progression as a 17th level wizard. In addition, using wizard as the arcane class means you can learn every arcane spell you want/can find.


I assumed Xexyz's BBEG was most likely not level 20.

Silver Crusade

EK's do have a broader / more general spell list to choose from and make for great ray casters. I take it no one read my build post above though.

I've not had any issues so far, up to 4th level, as I have 9 uses a day of +10atk 1d10+1dmg 18-20/x2crit with a flying Elven Curveblade. I've rarely ran out of uses per a PFS scenario, but if I do run out I have 4 1st and 4 2nd level spells as backup. Later on I plan on getting a +1 Spell-Storing Keen Elven Curveblade and then Hand of the Acolyte gets even more fun.

IMO, Magus are for close melee fighting and EK's are for ranged casting but have some melee capabilities to fall back on if needed. They play completely different.


I've seen two different 'effective' EK builds at my table:

1) I love the Blade Adept Arcanist OR the Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer (I'm a nice DM who lets EK 'fighter levels' stack as brawler levels)

2) Hodge podge build that used Eldritch Archer magus to go into 2 levels of Arcane Archer then finished out as EK for the BAB and effective fighter levels (ends up being a higher effective fighter level and the same number of bonus feats)


Dragonchess Player wrote:
deuxhero wrote:

Why not Arcane Archer?

Zen Archer Monk/Empyreal Sorcerer/Arcane Archer X

Arcane archer, after gaining Imbue Arrow (and possibly Enhance Arrows (Elemental)), really doesn't provide a whole lot. Especially since all of the other arrow tricks are limited times per day and/or cannot be used with Imbue Arrow. That third lost level of casting progression (on top of monk levels) absolutely prevents 9th level spells.

[Fighter or ranger] 1/wizard 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8 ends up with +17 BAB and spell progression as a 17th level wizard. In addition, using wizard as the arcane class means you can learn every arcane spell you want/can find.

Arcane archer level 3 is great, elemental bow


Wow thanks for all the advice guys, you've given me a lot to think about. I think based on what you've all said I think I'm going to pass on making an EK; the consensus seems to be that EK plays best as a wizard who can use a weapon and that's not really the fighting style I'm envisioning for this character. I forgot about bards and am going to see if there are any bard builds that can do what I want. The NPC in question is going to be either a human, elf, half-elf, or half-orc with the half-fiend template and be CR 15, so looking like a 13th level character.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
deuxhero wrote:
You could use a monster with innate casting as a basis.

Sure, but why do that when you could go for that sweet sweet Mystic Theurge prestige class? All you need is 3 levels in the prepared casting class you need to qualify and tack on MT levels for maximum effect! Go make, say, a Nymph Theurge with, idk, sorcerer levels! I totally made that up just now! Throw in like 6 in Sorcerer and 10 in Theurge! Don't worry, even though Theurge increases the power of your Sorcerer levels it technically doesn't advance them, so your PC-wealth caster with 9th-level druid spells and 8th-level sorcerer spells is technically only CR 20! I bet a group of 4 level 17 PCs could take her on easily!

Hey, don't give me that look. Paizo told me it works.

Silver Crusade

Xexyz wrote:
Wow thanks for all the advice guys, you've given me a lot to think about. I think based on what you've all said I think I'm going to pass on making an EK; the consensus seems to be that EK plays best as a wizard who can use a weapon and that's not really the fighting style I'm envisioning for this character. I forgot about bards and am going to see if there are any bard builds that can do what I want. The NPC in question is going to be either a human, elf, half-elf, or half-orc with the half-fiend template and be CR 15, so looking like a 13th level character.

Bard, or Skald, into Dragon Disciple is nice for a different kind of gish build.

The Exchange

LuniasM wrote:
deuxhero wrote:
You could use a monster with innate casting as a basis.

Sure, but why do that when you could go for that sweet sweet Mystic Theurge prestige class? All you need is 3 levels in the prepared casting class you need to qualify and tack on MT levels for maximum effect! Go make, say, a Nymph Theurge with, idk, sorcerer levels! I totally made that up just now! Throw in like 6 in Sorcerer and 10 in Theurge! Don't worry, even though Theurge increases the power of your Sorcerer levels it technically doesn't advance them, so your PC-wealth caster with 9th-level druid spells and 8th-level sorcerer spells is technically only CR 20! I bet a group of 4 level 17 PCs could take her on easily!

Hey, don't give me that look. Paizo told me it works.

They added the CR increases for MT correctly. The Nymph is CR 7. Sorcerer doesn't advance her spellcasting so counts 1/2 CR for the 6 levels so 3. CR 10 now. Add in 10 MT levels and it's 20.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ragoz wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
deuxhero wrote:
You could use a monster with innate casting as a basis.

Sure, but why do that when you could go for that sweet sweet Mystic Theurge prestige class? All you need is 3 levels in the prepared casting class you need to qualify and tack on MT levels for maximum effect! Go make, say, a Nymph Theurge with, idk, sorcerer levels! I totally made that up just now! Throw in like 6 in Sorcerer and 10 in Theurge! Don't worry, even though Theurge increases the power of your Sorcerer levels it technically doesn't advance them, so your PC-wealth caster with 9th-level druid spells and 8th-level sorcerer spells is technically only CR 20! I bet a group of 4 level 17 PCs could take her on easily!

Hey, don't give me that look. Paizo told me it works.

They added the CR increases for MT correctly. The Nymph is CR 7. Sorcerer doesn't advance her spellcasting so counts 1/2 CR for the 6 levels so 3. CR 10 now. Add in 10 MT levels and it's 20.

I'm well aware that she's CR'd according to the guidelines given in the CRB, I just happen to think they don't apply here. Sorcerer may not progress her innate abilities but it is keyed off her highest stat, and MT progresses both sides of the equation.

See, MT is balanced by the prerequisites and by virtue of losing class features. However, nymphs don't progress druid class features so she loses nothing on the divine side, meaning she effectively gives up 10 levels of bloodline progression for 5 more spell levels of druid, Combined Spells, and Spell Synergy. That isn't a balanced trade - she gains significantly more than she loses. Her CR would be more accurate if you treated the MT levels as progressing her racial spellcasting and her sorcerer spellcasting, making it worth another +5 CR on the Sorcerer side and putting her up to CR 25. Which, to be fair, is just about where I'd put a BBEG with PC-level wealth, years of intel on the players, plenty of preparation time, a home-field advantage, plenty of encounters to wear down the PC's resources, a free surprise round, and both 9th-level druid and 8th-level sorcerer spells.

The rules can't possibly cover every situation, and ime monsters with class levels are more an art than a science. Compare the same character to other CR 20 enemies and she will be leagues above their power level.

Liberty's Edge

Here's my version using the 14, 14, 14, 18, 12, 10 ability array for the build. I used Hero Lab for the build with average HP for each class. The build doesn't include spells, etc, as I wanted to see what the general statistics looked like, most because the class looks like it doesn't give very much in features. Well I can definitely say that I'm liking what I see so far.

Eldritch Knight:
Half-elf Fighter (Weapon Master) 2/Transmuter (Enhancement) 8/Eldritch Knight 10
LG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +9; Senses low-light vision; Perception +13 (+16 to sight-based checks in shadows)
--------------------
Defense
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AC 32, touch 24, flat-footed 23 (+8 armor, +5 deflection, +3 Dex, +6 dodge)
hp 168 (20 HD; 8d6+12d10+60)
Fort +17, Ref +13, Will +15; +2 vs. enchantments, +1 bonus vs. effects targetting a Longsword held by you
Immune sleep
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +5 undead-bane flaming ghost touch keen longsword +22/+17/+12/+7 (1d8+15/17-20 plus 2d6 vs. Undead and 1d6 fire)
Transmuter Spells Prepared (CL 19th; concentration +24)
. . Opposition Schools Enchantment, Necromancy
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Statistics
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Str 19, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +16; CMB +15; CMD 44 (45 vs. disarm, 45 vs. sunder)
Feats Alertness, Arcane Shield[APG], Arcane Strike, Combat Expertise, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Dodge, Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Improved Dodge, Improved Initiative, Martial Versatility[ARG], Multitalented Mastery[ARG], Quick Draw, Selective Spell[APG], Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (transmutation), Still Spell, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization (longsword)
Traits elven reflexes, magical knack
Skills Appraise +16, Climb +15, Craft (blacksmith) +18, Handle Animal +11, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (arcana) +23, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (engineering) +10, Knowledge (geography) +10, Knowledge (history) +10, Knowledge (local) +10, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (nobility) +10, Knowledge (planes) +10, Knowledge (religion) +10, Perception +13 (+16 to sight-based checks in shadows), Ride +14, Sense Motive +14, Spellcraft +29, Stealth +11, Survival +12, Swim +15; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven
SQ arcane bond (Arcane Familiar, owl), augment, elf blood, perfection of self, physical enhancement (+2), spell critical, weapon guard
Other Gear +5 undead-bane flaming ghost touch keen longsword, bracers of armor +8, cloak of resistance +5, ring of protection +5, 692,105 gp
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Shield Convert a level 1+ spell into + Spell Level deflection bonus to AC for 1 rd.
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Augment (+2 ability or +2 AC, 4 rounds, 8/day) (Sp) Grant either +2 to an ability score or +2 natural armor by touch.
Combat Expertise +/-5 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Enchantment You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Enchantment school.
Enhancement Associated School: Transmutation
Familiar Bonus: +3 to sight-based Perception checks in shadows You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Improved Dodge Gain a +1 dodge bonus against melee attacks.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Necromancy You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Necromancy school.
Perfection of Self +4 (Strength, 8 rounds/day) (Su) At 8th level, as a swift action you can grant yourself an enhancement bonus to a single ability score equal to 1/2 your wizard level (maximum +10) for one round. You may use this ability for a number of times per day equal to your wizard level.
Physical Enhancement +2 (Strength) (Su) When preparing spells, chosen physical attribute gains enhancement bonus.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Selective Spell You can cast a spell that does not affect some targets within its area.
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
Speak with Animals (Ex) Your familiar can communicate with animals similar to itself.
Speak with Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
Spell Critical (Su) Cast a spell as a swift action when you confirm a critical hit.
Spell Focus (Transmutation) Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Still Spell You can cast a spell with no somatic components. +1 Level.
Weapon Guard +1: Longsword (Ex) +1 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.


Someone showed me a EK that was really different. He went with a Urban bbn 1/ 6 ley line guardian witch (Str patron)Getting divine favor, hexes, rage and spontaneous caster...it's on my list to try out


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nice thread necromancy.

Since the topic is resurfacing, I’m currently toying with a Gunslinger 1 / Wizard (Spellslinger) 5 / EK build.

It has some duplication between the archetype and Gunslinger, but doing it that way gives you quick clear for gun misfires. I don’t think it would help when the misfire happens with a spell.


Since ya'll broguht this back up, reach EK's now do well with Shield Focus -> Shielded Mage & Shield Brace.

It's applicable to all arcane casters, but since we're headed into battle we like it extra much; a haramaki or silken ceremonial armor with the double plated modification and worn with an armored kilt results in heavy armor with +3 armor, +4 max dex bonus, 0 ACP and 0% spell failure chance. Add a +1 enhancement bonus, and it's the equivalent of mage armor.

Something like

Human Fighter 1/Wizard 3, wielding a +1 set of that armor, a +1 heavy mithral shield and a +1 glaive and 14 dex will be fairly all right off, defensively, sitting at something like AC 20

Feats - Shield Focus1, Shield BraceF, Shielded MageH, Combat Reflexes3

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