summoner seems nearly unplayable?

[Martialmasters]

being d10 hp is great, but having two meat suits to get whacked and only the hp of a fighter and ac of a fighter without armor is ...questionable.

you essentially have disadvantage on anything that ends up affecting both of you.

they have better action economy then other classes with companions but you are still constrained by the 3 action system even if you are better at it.

if i had 14 con, i might have 20 hp? but i have 2 bodies that can be surrounded, flanked, shot at and beat on. mine as well be 10hp then.

the only saving grace im seeing is the level 10 reaction that turns your disadvantage into advantage.

thats a long time to wait to function at basically half hp at all times.

not sure, not sold right now. i expect level 1 summoners dying to be a meme for a while if it stays this way.

[Deadmanwalking]

Martialmasters wrote:

if i had 14 con, i might have 20 hp? but i have 2 bodies that can be surrounded, flanked, shot at and beat on. mine as well be 10hp then.

Only if you have unlimited enemies.

In practice, barring area effects, which are admittedly their main weakness, I doubt you get attacked much more often than anyone else.

[KrispyXIV]

I'm going to actually playtest it, but my experience in pretty much every rpg I've run or played in tells me these concerns are largely hypothetical.

Enemies rarely have the numbers to make this sort of encirclement happen, or if they do theyre weak enough they can't capitalize. Beyond that, players almost always get to dictate positioning.

I'm not personally worried about this, but I plan to see how it goes.

[Martialmasters]

KrispyXIV wrote:

I'm going to actually playtest it, but my experience in pretty much every rpg I've run or played in tells me these concerns are largely hypothetical.

Enemies rarely have the numbers to make this sort of encirclement happen, or if they do theyre weak enough they can't capitalize. Beyond that, players almost always get to dictate positioning.

I'm not personally worried about this, but I plan to see how it goes.

they dont even need that is the thing, thats just worst case.

all you need is one on you and one on your summon and you are being attacked twice as often as anyone else.

if 2 are on your eidolon and 1 on you

aoe need not apply even.

[Arachnofiend]

I guess the worst case scenario we're worried about here is a melee enemy hitting the eidolon and a ranged enemy hitting the summoner? Any other arrangement and you're not more vulnerable than anyone else (a wizard can get hit twice by archers too).

[Orithilaen]

I don't get most of this worry. It's no easier (actually, usually harder) to hit two creatures with two attacks than to hit one creature with two attacks. You put your eidolon in melee and you stay back and out of trouble. Should something reach you in the back, that's not great (just as it isn't for most other casters), but it's also one fewer creature that's in the front attacking the melee characters. And it's great for healing since you can sit tight and be healed away from melee and it affects your eidolon.

The one part that gives me real concern is area effects. That can be ameliorated with tactics somewhat. But the better rule may be to have the summoner and eidolon share die rolls for saves.

[Orithilaen]

Martialmasters wrote:

they dont even need that is the thing, thats just worst case.

all you need is one on you and one on your summon and you are being attacked twice as often as anyone else.

if 2 are on your eidolon and 1 on you

aoe need not apply even.

Do monsters in your game usually split up and evenly distribute themselves attacking characters? That doesn't sound like normal (or sound!) tactics. Any character can be ganged up upon, of course.

[Squiggit]

Martialmasters wrote:

all you need is one on you and one on your summon and you are being attacked twice as often as anyone else.

I don't see how this is meaningfully different than just... two people targeting you if the eidolon wasn't there.

[shroudb]

if anything, it's more often than not, at least in my camapigns and in those that i'veplayed, for monsters to gang up on someone rather than perfectly split across each party member

[KrispyXIV]

Worst case, they're targeting the Summoner... who is exactly as defensively viable as as a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, etc.

You have the strict benefit of having more hitpoints, and a second body with improved defensive stats.

Its literally only a drawback vs. AOEs, and the best defense against AOEs is and always has been positioning - don't stand close to where the AOEs are falling.

[Temperans]

The difference is that the Eidolon wants to go near things. But it has to share your actions so when ever the Eidolon is doing something the Summoner is just standing still. This makes it very clear to enemies "hey this guy is easy to kill".

Not only that but if you are in a situation were you are indeed out numbered spliting your actions makes you a hindrance. The Eidolon is being less useful when ever you are doing something. Which means that the enemy has more chances to punish you for it.

[Selkor]

Temperans wrote:

The difference is that the Eidolon wants to go near things. But it has to share your actions so when ever the Eidolon is doing something the Summoner is just standing still. This makes it very clear to enemies "hey this guy is easy to kill".

Not only that but if you are in a situation were you are indeed out numbered spliting your actions makes you a hindrance. The Eidolon is being less useful when ever you are doing something. Which means that the enemy has more chances to punish you for it.

I can see that, but also on the flip side yeah there is a person standing there doing nothing, if they are doing nothing they aren't a priority target unless they know what a summoner is and that you share hitpoints with your Eidolon

[Martialmasters]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Worst case, they're targeting the Summoner... who is exactly as defensively viable as as a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, etc.

You have the strict benefit of having more hitpoints, and a second body with improved defensive stats.

Its literally only a drawback vs. AOEs, and the best defense against AOEs is and always has been positioning - don't stand close to where the AOEs are falling.

i dont see how its not a drawback or how your not functionally playing with 2 characters with half hp.

yes if 2 enemies are attacking the fighter, hes getting attacked twice. but your eidolon will be melee, and subject to whatever the fighter is being attacked with. so you dont gain the benefit of being at range, because you are always both at range and within melee.

[Orithilaen]

Temperans wrote:

The difference is that the Eidolon wants to go near things. But it has to share your actions so when ever the Eidolon is doing something the Summoner is just standing still. This makes it very clear to enemies "hey this guy is easy to kill".

Not only that but if you are in a situation were you are indeed out numbered spliting your actions makes you a hindrance. The Eidolon is being less useful when ever you are doing something. Which means that the enemy has more chances to punish you for it.

The summoner never has to stand still because you're going to use Act Together every round. So you have one action to Stride if you like, just like every spellcaster that's casting two-action spells. You're going to want to use that third action to boost your eidolon much of the time, so sometimes you'll be standing still, sure--just like the bard, which nobody thinks is weak.

For movement, the situation is even better with Tandem Move, which isn't use-limited to once per round, so you can Stride together with your eidolon as much as you like.

[Temperans]

Well if the Summoner is using Act Together (the only thing granting them an action) there would be very visible magic being cast on the Eidolon. So its more like "Look that guy is buffing this monster lets kill him".

[Deadmanwalking]

Temperans wrote:

The difference is that the Eidolon wants to go near things. But it has to share your actions so when ever the Eidolon is doing something the Summoner is just standing still. This makes it very clear to enemies "hey this guy is easy to kill".

Not only that but if you are in a situation were you are indeed out numbered spliting your actions makes you a hindrance. The Eidolon is being less useful when ever you are doing something. Which means that the enemy has more chances to punish you for it.

The thing about that is that the Summoner basically has one free action every turn due to Act Together. They can just move back while the Eidolon moves forward.

It'll be a problem occasionally, but not often.

[Temperans]

Its a problem most of the time.

IF you are in a wide space the summoner moving still likely is within Archery range.

If its a small room, then the summoner is just delaying the inevitable or triggering another encountering by moving somewhere else.

In any case its not pretty.

[Selkor]

Temperans wrote:

Well if the Summoner is using Act Together (the only thing granting them an action) there would be very visible magic being cast on the Eidolon. So its more like "Look that guy is buffing this monster lets kill him".

It's not magic though? It's literally you two just taking actions at the same time. It doesn't even have the magic trait, just Summoner and Tandem. So unless you're casting a spell (which granted you'd probably be casting a Conduit spell to boost the Eidolon), there isn't any magic.

[Dubious Scholar]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Temperans wrote:

The difference is that the Eidolon wants to go near things. But it has to share your actions so when ever the Eidolon is doing something the Summoner is just standing still. This makes it very clear to enemies "hey this guy is easy to kill".

Not only that but if you are in a situation were you are indeed out numbered spliting your actions makes you a hindrance. The Eidolon is being less useful when ever you are doing something. Which means that the enemy has more chances to punish you for it.

The thing about that is that the Summoner basically has one free action every turn due to Act Together. They can just move back while the Eidolon moves forward.

It'll be a problem occasionally, but not often.

And as noted, if it IS a problem, you can take the movement feat and now your eidolon can stride, strike, strike while you stride and buff the same turn.

[Deadmanwalking]

Temperans wrote:

Its a problem most of the time.

What, you specifically being targeted by multiple people? How and why?

Temperans wrote:

IF you are in a wide space the summoner moving still likely is within Archery range.

So is literally everyone else. I'm unclear why the Summoner is a priority.

Temperans wrote:

If its a small room, then the summoner is just delaying the inevitable or triggering another encountering by moving somewhere else.

Only if there's nobody between them and the enemy.

Temperans wrote:

In any case its not pretty.

Only if multiple enemies target you, and only to the degree that multiple people targeting you is a problem for almost everyone.

[Martialmasters]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Its a problem most of the time.

What, you specifically being targeted by multiple people? How and why?

Temperans wrote:

IF you are in a wide space the summoner moving still likely is within Archery range.

So is literally everyone else. I'm unclear why the Summoner is a priority.

Temperans wrote:

If its a small room, then the summoner is just delaying the inevitable or triggering another encountering by moving somewhere else.

Only if there's nobody between them and the enemy.

Temperans wrote:

In any case its not pretty.

Only if multiple enemies target you, and only to the degree that multiple people targeting you is a problem for almost everyone.

to address one point, its not that hte summoner is the priority, its that he is two targets and one hp pool.

requires some suspension of disbelief and a dm really handholding to not bring you down just by playing the game as normal.

[Temperans]

Honestly I think it would be better to just give the Eidolon and the Summoner have separate pools of 6 HP/level, and give them Life Link. That way the Summoner chooses how much HP they are willing to give and vice versa.

[demon321x2]

Martialmasters wrote:

requires some suspension of disbelief and a dm really handholding to not bring you down just by playing the game as normal.

Does it? What scenarios does having an extra body in the back row make you more vulnerable to attacks? If you are getting shot at with a bow you could just as easy have been shot at as single target. If you are being attacked in melee you could easily have been surrounded in melee and had a -2 from flatfooted instead (or the melee monsters walked right past the martials). So there's no situation where you on the front line (and the Eidolon has martial defenses, saves, and HP) couldn't have been attacked where the backline was unless you are being so overwhelmed with monsters they won't fit around a single target and that's before the mid level feat to just yank your Eidolon next to you in an emergency.

Defensewise the summoner really isn't that bad. They get two good saves and can invest in dex/armor feats and they get two master saves. The biggest weakness of the summoner is the multitarget save or sucks where everyone gets targeted once but that isn't a constant threat.

Really you are just one character that takes up two independent squares on the battlefield, not two characters.

[Deadmanwalking]

The vast majority of the time, ranged enemies should all focus on one target, and that target need not be a ranged combatant themselves (indeed, it's better for them if they focus on someone a melee enemy is also focusing on). Melee enemies should do the same if they can, but they usually can't due to sometimes winding up fighting separate foes.

Also, ranged enemies are notably less common than melee enemies. By a fair bit.

Also the vast majority of the time, enemies should focus on someone who is visibly doing something, because they are not prescient and do not know there are zero noncombatants in the PC group.

So, in order for people to specifically target both you and your Eidolon, the following things need to be true:

1. There must be ranged enemies.
2. They must select you, of all possible targets, to focus on, rather than the often more tactically advantageous 'focusing on a melee PC the melee enemies are already focused on.
3. They must select the guy giving a damage buff to the Eidolon (since that's likely all they see you doing), rather than, say, the guy casting fireballs at them.

Now, this will happen occasionally, don't get me wrong, especially if you need to spend your first turn summoning the Eidolon (though that's rare, you'll usually just have them out), since then they know you summoned them. But will it happen very often? No. Not based on my experience with how enemies actually generally act in most RPGs, even if played tactically.

[Martialmasters]

demon321x2 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

requires some suspension of disbelief and a dm really handholding to not bring you down just by playing the game as normal.

Does it? What scenarios does having an extra body in the back row make you more vulnerable to attacks? If you are getting shot at with a bow you could just as easy have been shot at as single target. If you are being attacked in melee you could easily have been surrounded in melee and had a -2 from flatfooted instead (or the melee monsters walked right past the martials). So there's no situation where you on the front line (and the Eidolon has martial defenses, saves, and HP) couldn't have been attacked where the backline was unless you are being so overwhelmed with monsters they won't fit around a single target and that's before the mid level feat to just yank your Eidolon next to you in an emergency.

Defensewise the summoner really isn't that bad. They get two good saves and can invest in dex/armor feats and they get two master saves. The biggest weakness of the summoner is the multitarget save or sucks where everyone gets targeted once but that isn't a constant threat.

Really you are just one character that takes up two independent squares on the battlefield, not two characters.

and majority of the time thats going to be a stark weakness. unless your dm is prone to completely ignoring your character in entire combats.

[Martialmasters]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

The vast majority of the time, ranged enemies should all focus on one target, and that target need not be a ranged combatant themselves (indeed, it's better for them if they focus on someone a melee enemy is also focusing on). Melee enemies should do the same if they can, but they usually can't due to sometimes winding up fighting separate foes.

Also, ranged enemies are notably less common than melee enemies. By a fair bit.

Also the vast majority of the time, enemies should focus on someone who is visibly doing something, because they are not prescient and do not know there are zero noncombatants in the PC group.

So, in order for people to specifically target both you and your Eidolon, the following things need to be true:

1. There must be ranged enemies.
2. They must select you, of all possible targets, to focus on, rather than the often more tactically advantageous 'focusing on a melee PC the melee enemies are already focused on.
3. They must select the guy giving a damage buff to the Eidolon (since that's likely all they see you doing), rather than, say, the guy casting fireballs at them.

Now, this will happen occasionally, don't get me wrong, especially if you need to spend your first turn summoning the Eidolon (though that's rare, you'll usually just have them out), since then they know you summoned them. But will it happen very often? No. Not based on my experience with how enemies actually generally act in most RPGs, even if played tactically.

we play different games then.

ones ive played what usually happens is everyone ends up engaged with at least one enemy in any combat, nobody is ever ignored. that means, by my experiences, summoner is nearly always getting doubleteamed.

[Temperans]

Why are the enemies just attacking the people doing something and not the clear weaklings?

If you have a group of intelligent enemies who believe themselves superior (as most enemies do) they will try to capture the weak looking enemy and use them as ransom. If not out right kill them to demoralize the other people.

All of this goes into the types of GM, the mentality of NPCs, and how willing the GM is to handhold the players.

[kaid]

I am not seeing the two body issue outside being caught by accident in a large AOE. Any setup that would have both you and the eidolon under heavy attack at the same time would be just as problematic if they were all focusing on your squishy caster form alone. Basically spliting attacks at both your eidolon and the summoner would mean at least some of those attacks are going against something with better defenses than the caster.

The only time it really comes into a dangerous spot is if for some reason something can tag both you and your summon with a nasty aoe spell and that would get bad really fast. But when you are playing a pet class a big part of what you are doing is making sure it is in position to do its job and you are in position to not get wrecked while your pet does its job. That is pet wrangling 101.

[Martialmasters]

Temperans wrote:

Why are the enemies just attacking the people doing something and not the clear weaklings?

If you have a group of intelligent enemies who believe themselves superior (as most enemies do) they will try to capture the weak looking enemy and use them as ransom. If not out right kill them to demoralize the other people.

All of this goes into the types of GM, the mentality of NPCs, and how willing the GM is to handhold the players.

example was yetis my group encountered recently. they did not ignore weak looking targets, they attacked everyone, flanking at times as they out numbered us.

summoner is getting attacked more and hit more often in this scenario. and this is far from being remotely uncommon in the games i play in.

[demon321x2]

Martialmasters wrote:

we play different games then.

ones ive played what usually happens is everyone ends up engaged with at least one enemy in any combat, nobody is ever ignored. that means, by my experiences, summoner is nearly always getting doubleteamed.

So the GM adds an extra monster for the summoner and Eidolon even though they are 1 character or were there going to be 5 monsters in the fight either way in which case the Eidolon could have been double teamed and flatfooted instead? There's no situation where the Eidolon couldn't be attacked twice (the GM may target someone else instead but then that person is suffering) that the Summoner and Eidolon can be attacked together unless they are both standing in a whirlwind attack (and they never should the Summoner cantrips have 100 ft range for a reason).

And the Summoner is not as squishy as a caster. It has full martial HP and martial saves. Caster AC is as good as martial AC till master proficiency kicks in assuming the caster invests into armor. 2E casters are squishy because they have half the HP and garbage saves, AC wise casters can keep up with either armor or high dex. Summoners do not have either of those issues.

[Martialmasters]

demon321x2 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

we play different games then.

ones ive played what usually happens is everyone ends up engaged with at least one enemy in any combat, nobody is ever ignored. that means, by my experiences, summoner is nearly always getting doubleteamed.

So the GM adds an extra monster for the summoner and Eidolon even though they are 1 character or were there going to be 5 monsters in the fight either way in which case the Eidolon could have been double teamed and flatfooted instead? There's no situation where the Eidolon couldn't be attacked twice (the GM may target someone else instead but then that person is suffering) that the Summoner and Eidolon can be attacked together unless they are both standing in a whirlwind attack (and they never should the Summoner cantrips have 100 ft range for a reason).

And the Summoner is not as squishy as a caster. It has full martial HP and martial saves. Caster AC is as good as martial AC till master proficiency kicks in assuming the caster invests into armor. 2E casters are squishy because they have half the HP and garbage saves, AC wise casters can keep up with either armor or high dex. Summoners do not have either of those issues.

no we are normally outnumbered slightly. as per peoples suggestions of using more lower power enemies instead of a more powerful single enemy.

this argument isnt about summoner defenses. they are fine. being 2 bodies with 1 hp pool poses unique disadvantages that are very noticeable to any group that doesnt ignore bodies on the field.

[graystone]

shroudb wrote:

if anything, it's more often than not, at least in my camapigns and in those that i'veplayed, for monsters to gang up on someone rather than perfectly split across each party member

I've played games where disorganized, non-smart and/or automatic type creatures/traps/hazards more or less randomly roll for who they attack: in these situations, having 2 characters means you're twice as likely to get hit.

For instance, you have 4 character
Fighter 1-2
Cleric 3-4
Rogue 5-6
Summoner 7-8
Eidolon 9-10

So is you're walking along and skeletons pop up out of the ground and attack [roll a 1d10 for each skeleton], a 7-10 is against the summoners hp. Or a rock slide happens and 4 rocks fall [roll a d10 for each]. Or a repeating crossbow trap [fire a volley of arrows, 1d4 attack random character]...

[demon321x2]

Martialmasters wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Why are the enemies just attacking the people doing something and not the clear weaklings?

If you have a group of intelligent enemies who believe themselves superior (as most enemies do) they will try to capture the weak looking enemy and use them as ransom. If not out right kill them to demoralize the other people.

All of this goes into the types of GM, the mentality of NPCs, and how willing the GM is to handhold the players.

example was yetis my group encountered recently. they did not ignore weak looking targets, they attacked everyone, flanking at times as they out numbered us.

summoner is getting attacked more and hit more often in this scenario. and this is far from being remotely uncommon in the games i play in.

Summoner casts invisibility and just doesn't take hostile actions for the fight until they are in a safer place or just flies out of the situation. Spend an action for the summoner to move and the Eidolon to attack so the turn isn't completely defensive. The summoner should have a budget of 1 spell per fight along with a staff and maybe a few scrolls. They are no more helpless than another caster and they have a full martial. If they are in that bad of a situation they just cast a defensive spell and make only one target available. If the Summoner can't survive one round of attacks before nopeing out its already an issue and if the GM is sending enough monsters that the summoner can be dropped in one round with split fire the casters are all probably bleeding on the ground as well.

[Martialmasters]

demon321x2 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Why are the enemies just attacking the people doing something and not the clear weaklings?

If you have a group of intelligent enemies who believe themselves superior (as most enemies do) they will try to capture the weak looking enemy and use them as ransom. If not out right kill them to demoralize the other people.

All of this goes into the types of GM, the mentality of NPCs, and how willing the GM is to handhold the players.

example was yetis my group encountered recently. they did not ignore weak looking targets, they attacked everyone, flanking at times as they out numbered us.

summoner is getting attacked more and hit more often in this scenario. and this is far from being remotely uncommon in the games i play in.

Summoner casts invisibility and just doesn't take hostile actions for the fight until they are in a safer place or just flies out of the situation. Spend an action for the summoner to move and the Eidolon to attack so the turn isn't completely defensive. The summoner should have a budget of 1 spell per fight along with a staff and maybe a few scrolls. They are no more helpless than another caster and they have a full martial. If they are in that bad of a situation they just cast a defensive spell and make only one target available. If the Summoner can't survive one round of attacks before nopeing out its already an issue and if the GM is sending enough monsters that the summoner can be dropped in one round with split fire the casters are all probably bleeding on the ground as well.

good thoughts, unfortunately its not the reality. but yes, you could stock up on just a bunch of nope spells. and really, thats probably what you will do at higher levels with your lower level slots. in wich case, you are expending twice as many resources to do the job of one regular class.

[Temperans]

What lower level slots? The lowest level spell you can cast is level 8.

You literally have 4 spell slots, you only get 2 of the highest you can cast. Spending a each of those on invisibility so you can nope out is just bad.

[demon321x2]

Martialmasters wrote:

no we are normally outnumbered slightly. as per peoples suggestions of using more lower power enemies instead of a more powerful single enemy.

this argument isnt about summoner defenses. they are fine. being 2 bodies with 1 hp pool poses unique disadvantages that are very noticeable to any group that doesnt ignore bodies on the field.

Then the GM should be focus firing you down one by one by dog piling you if fighting intelligently and if they aren't weak enough a fireball or two can clear them the casters are going to be dead anyway since they have half Summoner HP and being engaged in melee kills casters unless they can just burst it down. Enemies are not kind enough in most games I play to go after everyone separately with no thought to who is actually the biggest threat (though I do find myself holding back on focus firing as GM myself sometimes because it can kill fast). A summoner has HP on par with a fighter, not a caster. If a set of monsters can drop a fighter half that many monsters can probably drop a caster and at higher levels you can drag your Eidolon out of harms way after a single attack. The casters should probably be thanking you for soaking two monsters for a turn before they got murdered by them.

[Unicore]

Also on the reverse side, a champion or a cleric or both in a party with a summoner is going to get a lot more milage out of their damage reduction abilities and healing when they don't have to split their abilities between two targets.

[graystone]

demon321x2 wrote:

Summoner casts invisibility and just doesn't take hostile actions for the fight until they are in a safer place or just flies out of the situation.

Doesn't work as they share actions: any hostile action is the summoners action and invisibility drops: so the invisible summoner would have to be safe before the Eidolon attacked.

[breithauptclan]

Two words:

Unmanifest and Synthesis.

There. Nonexistent problem solved.

[KrispyXIV]

graystone wrote:

demon321x2 wrote:

Summoner casts invisibility and just doesn't take hostile actions for the fight until they are in a safer place or just flies out of the situation.

Doesn't work as they share actions: any hostile action is the summoners action and invisibility drops: so the invisible summoner would have to be safe before the Eidolon attacked.

Thats... a stretch, IMO, to say that actions done by the Eidolon metaphysically count as being done by the Summoner.

They're linked, but they're still clearly different free willed beings.

[graystone]

breithauptclan wrote:

Two words:

Unmanifest and Synthesis.

There. Nonexistent problem solved.

Not sure who or what you're referring to.

[demon321x2]

Temperans wrote:

What lower level slots? The lowest level spell you can cast is level 8.

You literally have 4 spell slots, you only get 2 of the highest you can cast. Spending a each of those on invisibility so you can nope out is just bad.

Hopefully you don't need to nope out every fight or something has gone wrong and you should just be playing a fighter and frankly all the casters in your party should probably start thinking about being fighter with caster multiclass as well because apparently the front line is useless with keeping monsters off them. And unlike casters a summoner can take a few hits.

Invisibility is a nice spell in your repertoire anyway after 4th since you can cast it on the martials and have them be untouchable without a counter.

And you can buy a few invisibility scrolls. The nice thing about invisibility is 2nd level covers most summoner needs. Potions of it are 20 gp a pop and as the Summoner you can just hide in the corner and be a functional class with just the Eidolon. Lasts 10 minutes even so you can prebuff it if you are worried.

Low level spell wise you can still pick up staves. Nothing says you don't get full charges. I thought there was a staff with invisibility on it but there's only Staff of the Magi.

The Summoner is no more vulnerable than the rest of the party and the GM has to be tearing through almost half the party's total HP to take down the Summoner in one round while still splitting the attacks somewhat evenly to each character. There will be the same amount of attacks every time. The only difference is the summoner takes 2/5s instead of 1/4 while the rest of the party is taking 1/5. If that is killing you before you can make it 1/4 (or less) then the fight is unbalanced.

Some quick math, if each member of a 4 man party has 100 HP and each character is targeted equally so the summoner gets hit twice for each 1 on the other PCs they'd need to deal 250 damage on average in a single round to drop the Summoner. That's more than half the party's total HP in a single round (The other 3 are at half HP). The next round the rest of the party is dead unless they can nova back twice as hard and that assumes everyone has as much HP as the Summoner which won't be true.

The complaint amounts to my GM is holding back by trying to spread the damage and in doing so ends up focus firing the Summoner instead because if that damage was focused there'd be two dead party members.

[Cydeth]

I had a character I was planning to convert to a summoner, a conjuration wizard in a conversion of Red Hand of Doom. With the way the action economy is designed and the way the hit points are shared, it would be suicide unless I took an extremely specific build that has nothing to do with summoning.

The class is unplayable for me, which is a shame, because up until yesterday I was super-excited for the class. This is a complete, utter letdown for me.

[demon321x2]

Unicore wrote:

Also on the reverse side, a champion or a cleric or both in a party with a summoner is going to get a lot more milage out of their damage reduction abilities and healing when they don't have to split their abilities between two targets.

The cleric not having to walk into melee to do the touch range heal on the Eidolon is nice.

[QuidEst]

Martialmasters wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Why are the enemies just attacking the people doing something and not the clear weaklings?

If you have a group of intelligent enemies who believe themselves superior (as most enemies do) they will try to capture the weak looking enemy and use them as ransom. If not out right kill them to demoralize the other people.

All of this goes into the types of GM, the mentality of NPCs, and how willing the GM is to handhold the players.

example was yetis my group encountered recently. they did not ignore weak looking targets, they attacked everyone, flanking at times as they out numbered us.

summoner is getting attacked more and hit more often in this scenario. and this is far from being remotely uncommon in the games i play in.

It may not feel like it, but that's actually an advantage to the group for a couple reasons. I am making the assumption that the GM doesn't count pet classes as two characters for the purposes of balance.

So, let's consider the usual Cleric/Wizard/Fighter/Rogue. There are six yetis.

We'll generously apply the extra yetis to the martial characters, figuring that they are likely to position themselves on the front lines. The fighter and rogue are getting hit by two enemies, both of which have flanking (which, being underleveled, they really need).

Let's swap in your eidolon. We'll consider swapping for Wizard and for Rogue.

Taking the place of Wizard, you are peeling off one of the extra yetis. Which one? Probably Rogue- Fighter is the best at locking things in place. You're now taking twice the damage instead of Rogue… but here are some differences. You've got more HP than the Rogue, and while your personal defenses are a little weaker than the Rogue's, by splitting the enemies up across two bodies, you've denied flanking to two enemies. You're easier to heal than the Rogue, because healing either body works.

Taking the place of Rogue, we have the same thing happen. You're just doing it directly, instead of peeling one off.

So, in the situations you describe, the only differences are: you are very good at attracting the "extras" (better than the Fighter, even), and you deny two enemies flanking. Since you have at least as much HP as anything that isn't a Barbarian, what's the harm in that?

[Deadmanwalking]

Martialmasters wrote:

no we are normally outnumbered slightly. as per peoples suggestions of using more lower power enemies instead of a more powerful single enemy.

this argument isnt about summoner defenses. they are fine. being 2 bodies with 1 hp pool poses unique disadvantages that are very noticeable to any group that doesnt ignore bodies on the field.

I mean, if they can, and do, do this, weren't they going to do it to someone anyway?

It always being you may be personally annoying, but someone was always gonna get ganged up on. At least the Summoner avoids being flanked if they're going for separate bodies.

graystone wrote:

shroudb wrote:

if anything, it's more often than not, at least in my camapigns and in those that i'veplayed, for monsters to gang up on someone rather than perfectly split across each party member

I've played games where disorganized, non-smart and/or automatic type creatures/traps/hazards more or less randomly roll for who they attack: in these situations, having 2 characters means you're twice as likely to get hit.

For instance, you have 4 character
Fighter 1-2
Cleric 3-4
Rogue 5-6
Summoner 7-8
Eidolon 9-10

So is you're walking along and skeletons pop up out of the ground and attack [roll a 1d10 for each skeleton], a 7-10 is against the summoners hp. Or a rock slide happens and 4 rocks fall [roll a d10 for each]. Or a repeating crossbow trap [fire a volley of arrows, 1d4 attack random character]...

I can sorta see this for randomized traps, but for mindless creatures, shouldn't they just attack the nearest target? I know the idea of mindless zombies walking right by the Fighter to attack the Wizard behind him makes zero sense to me.

[KrispyXIV]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

I know the idea of mindless zombies walking right by the Fighter to attack the Wizard behind him makes zero sense to me.

There's also the fact that its absolutely a plus if someone has to use an extra action to get to the squishy caster behind the Fighter, and it ends up being a Poor Life Choice when they realize that the caster provides flanking to the Fighter they put at their back.

These hypothetical situations where the back rank of casters is getting constantly rushed by hypothetical large numbers of foes don't seem to be borne out in actual play, at least in Adventure Paths.

In encounters where the party doesn't have a numerical advantage, foes tend to be significantly less threatening.

Not to mention, most environments in APs don't allow for easily bypassing a front line... generally, 'cramped' is common, or its open enough that casters and support characters can keep their distance...

[Samir Sardinha]

Selkor wrote:

Temperans wrote:

The difference is that the Eidolon wants to go near things. But it has to share your actions so when ever the Eidolon is doing something the Summoner is just standing still. This makes it very clear to enemies "hey this guy is easy to kill".

Not only that but if you are in a situation were you are indeed out numbered spliting your actions makes you a hindrance. The Eidolon is being less useful when ever you are doing something. Which means that the enemy has more chances to punish you for it.

I can see that, but also on the flip side yeah there is a person standing there doing nothing, if they are doing nothing they aren't a priority target unless they know what a summoner is and that you share hitpoints with your Eidolon

"The link between you and your eidolon takes the form of a magic glowing sigil on each of your bodies. This symbol can’t be obscured either magically or via mundane means, as it either shines through the magic or appears over top of whatever you use to cover it. This sigil, combined with the way that the two of you clearly act in tandem, makes it readily apparent to an intelligent observer that the two of you have some connection with each other, even if that onlooker doesn’t know what a summoner or an eidolon is." pag 14

[Dubious Scholar]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

I know the idea of mindless zombies walking right by the Fighter to attack the Wizard behind him makes zero sense to me.

There's also the fact that its absolutely a plus if someone has to use an extra action to get to the squishy caster behind the Fighter, and it ends up being a Poor Life Choice when they realize that the caster provides flanking to the Fighter they put at their back.

These hypothetical situations where the back rank of casters is getting constantly rushed by hypothetical large numbers of foes don't seem to be borne out in actual play, at least in Adventure Paths.

In encounters where the party doesn't have a numerical advantage, foes tend to be significantly less threatening.

Not to mention, most environments in APs don't allow for easily bypassing a front line... generally, 'cramped' is common, or its open enough that casters and support characters can keep their distance...

Yeah... even intelligent enemies are going to logically respond first to the guy hitting them with a sword. Yes, we the gaming overmind know "kill the medic first" and such. But enemies aren't a hive mind, and "intelligent" doesn't mean tactical. And as levels go up casters have plenty of ways to avoid being in the thick of things.

Hell, at level 9 you can just have a flying turret eidolon that's spitting fire or whatever from the sky with you safely on its back (via evolution surge for flight).

[WWHsmackdown]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Selkor wrote:

Temperans wrote:

The difference is that the Eidolon wants to go near things. But it has to share your actions so when ever the Eidolon is doing something the Summoner is just standing still. This makes it very clear to enemies "hey this guy is easy to kill".

Not only that but if you are in a situation were you are indeed out numbered spliting your actions makes you a hindrance. The Eidolon is being less useful when ever you are doing something. Which means that the enemy has more chances to punish you for it.

I can see that, but also on the flip side yeah there is a person standing there doing nothing, if they are doing nothing they aren't a priority target unless they know what a summoner is and that you share hitpoints with your Eidolon

"The link between you and your eidolon takes the form of a magic glowing sigil on each of your bodies. This symbol can’t be obscured either magically or via mundane means, as it either shines through the magic or appears over top of whatever you use to cover it. This sigil, combined with the way that the two of you clearly act in tandem, makes it readily apparent to an intelligent observer that the two of you have some connection with each other, even if that onlooker doesn’t know what a summoner or an eidolon is." pag 14

I doubt very seriously that the intention of this flavor text is to inform dms to focus the summoner any more than the rest of the backline.