Mother Myrtle and banish shenanigans


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


So send cookies to my house if I'm wrong but Mother Myrtle seems to have the ability to do some unintended hi jinx with her ability to turn banish into discard or recharge.

Case in point: Communion in MM

The card initially states bury to gain a non basic blessing from the box.

The idea being you have not gained health but just swapped a spell for a potentially effective blessing.

buuuuuut if you don't have the divine skill banish it you silly non caster!

Hold on there a second though. Mother Myrtle says "Hey I'm banishing a card with the divine trait, let's attempt the discard or recharge check!"

Because in fact she doesn't have the divine skill. And she isn't even required to have it by her power since it says "you may"

So Mother Myrtle then ends up with a blessing in her hand and recharging the spell for later! She just gained cards!

Also the laboratory coat turns into nearly the best armor in adventure deck one.

You banish it to reduce all damage or you may bury it if you're proficient in light armors which she is...

Hold on... did I just hear another "You may"?

So I banish the coat, but wait I can attempt the recharge check for that!

So she has a means to discard or recharge to reduce damage to 0 out of a AD1 card.

Umm wow. There were subtleties to this character I had not fully conceptualized. And I'm sure there are some other AD6 divine spells she can recharge or discard that were originally meant to banish or bury as well.

That's kinda messed up... That the alchemist can wield divine power better than any cleric, paladin, druid or oracle.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

See this thread, that brings up the same issue. And in particular Vic's post.


I thought Alchemists recharging the Lab Coat was just good strategy.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

See also: CD Damiel's / Mother Myrtle's ability to recharge instead of banish Unearthly Aim for a straight +10 (+AD#) to a strength/melee/ranged combat check.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Bump for Ultimate Wilderness questions with Mother Myrtle. She seems perfectly made for this deck, but a situation often comes up with the some plant cards where she appears to be able to attempt to recharge twice.

Mother Myrtle wrote:
When you would banish a boon that has the Alchemical, Arcade, Divine, or Liquid trait for its power, you may instead attempt a Knowledge check with a difficulty of 7 plus the card's adventure deck number. If you succeed, recharge it; if you fail, discard it
Wintervine, plant, alchemical item wrote:
On a character at your location's Perception or Survival check, bury or banish this card to add 1 die. After the check, you may succeed at a Craft 6 or Survival 5 check to recharge this card instead.

If I'm reading this correctly, she can use Wintervine by banishing it to add 1 die, then attempt a Craft 6 or Survival 5 check to recharge. If she somehow fails that check, it would be banished, which is when her class power would kick in and she could attempt a Knowledge check to recharge/discard it. Is that accurate?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Pyrocat wrote:

Bump for Ultimate Wilderness questions with Mother Myrtle. She seems perfectly made for this deck, but a situation often comes up with the some plant cards where she appears to be able to attempt to recharge twice.

Mother Myrtle wrote:
When you would banish a boon that has the Alchemical, Arcade, Divine, or Liquid trait for its power, you may instead attempt a Knowledge check with a difficulty of 7 plus the card's adventure deck number. If you succeed, recharge it; if you fail, discard it
Wintervine, plant, alchemical item wrote:
On a character at your location's Perception or Survival check, bury or banish this card to add 1 die. After the check, you may succeed at a Craft 6 or Survival 5 check to recharge this card instead.
If I'm reading this correctly, she can use Wintervine by banishing it to add 1 die, then attempt a Craft 6 or Survival 5 check to recharge. If she somehow fails that check, it would be banished, which is when her class power would kick in and she could attempt a Knowledge check to recharge/discard it. Is that accurate?

Correct.

Other ways to exploit her, and some interesting facts, for those curious, include...

  • Survival-based weapons (From Ultimate Wilderness) - use a weapon slot to give her exceptionally powerful combat checks just by revealing it.
  • Book of the Damned, if redeemed (Redemption applies to the entire party, even in OP), can be given by any Hell's Vengeance character to Mother Myrtle to buy infinite turns, since it has the Divine trait. This is not immediately different to the spells listed earlier in this thread, but this can give you up to 6d4 (average 15) blessings back, rather than just 1d6 or so for every use.
  • Based on my interpretation of a recent FAQ here, it's been confirmed that Myrtle can use her Wisdom skill with Attack spells thanks to her power, as "you may use Wisdom in place of" does not count towards the limit of "use one power to determine which skill you're using for a check" anymore.
  • Robe of Items and Twitch Tonic are both cards that effectively represent multiple explorations/card draws individually, and her Reanimator role can consistently draw these specific cards out of the discard pile or deck. Combining these can trivially lead to infinite-exploration-and-movement combos, allowing her to defeat high-level scenarios in a single turn as I have demonstrated elsewhere.

    Quite frankly, she's probably one of the three or four most powerful characters in PACG, and the ability to buy the party infinite turns is one of the less egregious exploits she can do. I'd probably recommend not using her, because of how much better she is at most of the game than most other characters.

    (Note, in my proof-of-concept "Beat an AD5 scenario, blind, first try, in one turn, with an OP-legal deck" run linked above I had built her deck on the assumption - which was true, at the time - that she could not use her power with Attack Spells. The fact that she now can with a more recent FAQ just makes her even more powerful. Furthermore, I actually made a couple of mistakes when deckbuilding her which made her perform weaker than she otherwise would have, which I state in my summary post in the linked forum.)


  • Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
    Pyrocat wrote:

    Bump for Ultimate Wilderness questions with Mother Myrtle. She seems perfectly made for this deck, but a situation often comes up with the some plant cards where she appears to be able to attempt to recharge twice.

    Mother Myrtle wrote:
    When you would banish a boon that has the Alchemical, Arcade, Divine, or Liquid trait for its power, you may instead attempt a Knowledge check with a difficulty of 7 plus the card's adventure deck number. If you succeed, recharge it; if you fail, discard it
    Wintervine, plant, alchemical item wrote:
    On a character at your location's Perception or Survival check, bury or banish this card to add 1 die. After the check, you may succeed at a Craft 6 or Survival 5 check to recharge this card instead.
    If I'm reading this correctly, she can use Wintervine by banishing it to add 1 die, then attempt a Craft 6 or Survival 5 check to recharge. If she somehow fails that check, it would be banished, which is when her class power would kick in and she could attempt a Knowledge check to recharge/discard it. Is that accurate?

    I'll have to disagree with Yewstance and say that no, that is not accurate.

    You make Mother Myrtle's check at the time you play the card. If you're currently making a check, Mother Myrtle's check gets resolved after the current check is finished but before you move on with anything else.

    If you choose to use Myrtle's power and you succeed at Mother Myrtle's check, the card is recharged instead of banished. If you choose to use Myrtle's power and fail, the card is discarded.

    If you choose not to use Myrtle's power, the card is added to your recovery pile. Then, during recovery, you can attempt Wintervine's check to recharge it. If you fail the check, it's banished for real (Myrtle cannot intercept this). Otherwise it's recharged.

    So, you can either choose to use Myrtle's (in which case your choices are recharge/discard for a Knowledge check, and it happens right away) or Wintervine's (in which case your choices are recharge/banish for a Craft/Survival check, and it happens at the end of the turn).

    If using MM rules instead of Core, the above is largely unchanged. Just, both checks would happen immediately instead of Wintervine waiting. This is because Myrtle uses the wording "when you would" which means it happens before you officially banish it. So choosing to use Myrtle's power unconditionally turns the banish into either a recharge or a discard, so Wintervine's power never applies. If choosing not to use Myrtle's power, then your opportunity to do something other than banish has passed because Wintervine happens after playing the card instead of interrupting the card play.


    Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

    Skizzerz makes a compelling rules assessment - I was underthinking it.


    Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
    skizzerz wrote:
    You make Mother Myrtle's check at the time you play the card. If you're currently making a check, Mother Myrtle's check gets resolved after the current check is finished but before you move on with anything else.

    I don't think this is true.

    Core Rule Book, "Compatibility with older sets", pg 26 wrote: wrote:
    If a card you banish to play has a check that can allow you to do something other than banish it, put it in a recovery pile and attempt that check at the end of the turn.

    So regardless, it's going into the recovery pile.

    You've got two options for recovery. And since they both happen at the same time, you get to choose which to go first. Therefore you could try the card option for recovery, and if you fail it's banished, which is when MMs power kicks in.

    Granted, at that point you could argue you're not banishing it for its power, you're banishing it because you failed a check.


    Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

    Myrtles power says “when you would”. This is a template that means the power triggers before the thing that would happen actually happens. So, her power happens before you actually banish the card. Since you haven’t banished the card yet, the rule to put it into recovery doesn’t happen yet. Myrtles power changes the cost from banish to something else.

    You only put it into recovery if you determine that you actually banish the card. Once in recovery, Myrtles power doesn’t apply because it doesn’t say it can be used during recovery (and also because you aren’t banishing it for its power at that point in time)


    Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

    I've been playing Mother Myrtle in DD and now just starting in CotCT. I've been playing per skizzerz interpretation above. However, I've come across a new card that I have a question on.

    Additionally in the time since this last post the conversion guide has been released and Mother Myrtle has the following updated powers:

    conversion guide Mother Myrtle wrote:

    You may use your Wisdom skill (▢ +1d4) for your Arcane (▢ or Divine) check.

    When you attempt to recover an Alchemical or Liquid boon, you may instead attempt a Knowledge check with a difficulty of 7 plus the card's level. If you succeed, recharge it (▢ or shuffle it into your deck); if you fail, discard it.

    and she gains the following proficiencies: Alchemical, Arcane, Divine, and Liquid.

    The card in question is the Potion of Focus.

    Potion of Focus, alchemist CD wrote:
    Banish this card to allow a character at your location to add her Intelligence or Craft skill to her non-combat check.

    As far as I can tell this card never goes into recovery, so her (and all Alchemists) updated power cannot trigger, and thus she HAS to banish this card.

    The "Compatibility with Older Sets" section in the rulebook has this to say:

    core rulebook wrote:
    If a card you banish to play has a check that can allow you to do something other than banish it, put it in a recovery pile and attempt that check at the end of the turn.

    The card itself does not have a check, so it doesn't go into recovery.

    Unless I'm missing something, this is a pretty big nerf to Alchemists, as there are many classic and CD cards that are "banish" with no check to recover. Maybe I'm interpreting wrong?

    Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

    We are working through some conversion advice on old potions and plants. (The short version is that they should generally work like new potions and plants, but the specific instructions needed to make that happen are somewhat elusive.)


    Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

    Thanks Vic. I just looked through the CotCT items and found an Elixir of Focus with the same power but with a During Recovery. I'll play using that instead for the time being.


    Pyrocat wrote:

    The card itself does not have a check, so it doesn't go into recovery.

    Unless I'm missing something, this is a pretty big nerf to Alchemists, as there are many classic and CD cards that are "banish" with no check to recover. Maybe I'm interpreting wrong?

    The Conversion Guide fixes that too.

    Conversion Guide wrote:
    You should also put it in a recovery pile if you have a power on your character card or on a displayed card that can allow you to do something other than banish that card.

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