Tougher scenarios


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Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Boston

Greetings GMs,

I run PFS at my LFGS at least twice a month and there is a core group of 6 that have pretty much optimized their characters, which is good, but some of the scenarios are easy due to that optimization - they are breezing through them recently.

After the last game they asked for two things, and being a nice GM, I'd like to help them out.

1. Tougher scenarios - they are current on season 7 and 8 so I would like some suggestions for older season scenarios that can be somewhat difficult, level 5 to 9.

2. Are there any scenarios that offer up a race boon? I don't think so but being somewhat new (almost 1 year) I'm not sure.

Thanks.

3/5

Have they done any Season 4 stuff?

Liberty's Edge 3/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

One word: BONEKEEP!

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

#5–20: The Sealed Gate

*shudder*

It's tough enough normally, but it also has a 'hard mode' to ramp up the challenge. Other scenarios with a hard mode include #4–26: The Waking Rune and #5–13: Weapon in the Rift.

5/5 *****

What level are they?

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Second Andreww's question, level is important. Also, are they willing to play modules? It's usually possible to run a module for characters who are all a level below what the module was written for, which can make it pretty tough.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Kevin Baumann wrote:

Greetings GMs,

I run PFS at my LFGS at least twice a month and there is a core group of 6 that have pretty much optimized their characters, which is good, but some of the scenarios are easy due to that optimization - they are breezing through them recently.

After the last game they asked for two things, and being a nice GM, I'd like to help them out.

1. Tougher scenarios - they are current on season 7 and 8 so I would like some suggestions for older season scenarios that can be somewhat difficult, level 5 to 9.

2. Are there any scenarios that offer up a race boon? I don't think so but being somewhat new (almost 1 year) I'm not sure.

Thanks.

from this post, I would think they are levels 5 to 9... But that's just a guess

4/5

Storval Stairs, man.

Besides the question of level, I would also ask what type of optimization you're seeing. Caster optimization vs kensai bladebound magus optimization vs ridiculous AC fighter/paladin/whatever are all very different things.


Bonekeep... Elven Entanglement, any scenario in the same season as the last one.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Boston

Sorry, I should have made it more obvious. They are level 6.

And they have not done most of 4.

Thanks for the suggestions, feel free to keep sending them!

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Boston

Some great suggestions so far, I appreciate it.

Matt, I'll look at #5-20. If it makes someone shudder, that's what I want.

I'll also look at bonekeep, I've heard rumblings of that being a killer.

As for optimization they are massive skill monkeys with some DPS (arcanist) and a tank with a high AC. They are decent at traps (rogue) but not fantastic. I don't know all the details though - but tough combats might be a good thing to knock them down a peg or two :-)

Silver Crusade 5/5

In Wrath's Shadow and The Sanos Abduction had some brutal final fights.

Grand Lodge 2/5

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Gary Bush wrote:
One word: BONEKEEP!

If they are a group that has been playing together with optimized characters, then even that will be a cake walk.

We had a team work through all three levels without any problem in CORE mode. Level two may have been the toughest if you choose any of them. I hoped level three would be more challenging, given that it was a 5-9 and not a 3-7. That just meant that our characters had a couple extra levels too.

I'd suggest starting with 3-26 Portal of the Sacred Rune and run through the Cult of Lissala arc. Everything is a 7-11, but Severing Ties. Get them to 4-26 The Waking Rune for their final scenario before retirement and run it in hard mode.

3-26 Portal of the Sacred Rune
4-07 Severing Ties (1-5)
4-08 The Cultist's Kiss
4-10 Feast of Sigils
4-12 The Refuge of Time
4-20 Words of the Ancients
4-26 The Waking Rune

Storval Stairs and Elven Entanglement are good to work into that schedule.

1/5

I second the cult of lissala arc. I've played or run most of them and there are some very hard scenarios in there if played on hard, you do have to get the party to agree before hand.

Waking Rune, high tier, hard mode with a GM who has thought about tactics and is well versed should rarely get past the first encounter and I have real trouble imagining how a party could beat the big bad.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Georgia—Atlanta

Seconding Cultist's Kiss. Oof.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

For difficult 5-9 scenarios I'd look at the following. Note that the challenge in many of these is highly dependent on smart NPCs making smart tactical plays. Be sure to carefully read through in advance and consider what you would do if the NPC was in fact your character.

Spoiler:
2-03 The Rebel's Ransom
4-03 The Golemworks Incident
4-13 Fortress of the Nail (preferably when they are level 7)
5-13 Weapon in the Rift (Hard Mode)
6-03 The Technic Siege

For challenging 5-9 scenarios I'd consider throwing some of the more social/investigative ones at them to see if they are solely combat optimized:

Spoiler:
4-06 The Green Market
4-13 Fortress of the Nail (again)
5-03 The Hellknight's Feast
5-07 Port Godless
7-03 The Bronze House Reprisal

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Absolutely look to Seasons 4 & 5. There are a number of scenarios that are a step up in challenge rating, as mentioned here.

Grand Lodge 3/5

The new replayable can be difficult from what I have gathered. 08-07 From the Tomb of Righteous Repose, plus you can custom create the scenario pretty much on which story line you want to go with.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Captain, Australia—NSW—Greater West

To answer number 2, to my knowledge there was only one race boon offered as a chronicle sheet boon and that race has since been opened up for everyone (Oread).

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ****

Just to play devil's advocate, but why? A large part of me says, let them overwhelm the scenarios. Then, maybe, if it stops being so much fun to hyper optimize, they will start making more balanced characters.

That being said, Port Godless.

3/5

Wardens of Sulfur Gulch is particularly difficult. Its 8-04 I believe.

4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

Although the intent was the opposite, you might find something in my thread asking for 16 PP scenarios -- the scenarios where you better have saved up for a raise dead before entering.

The Exchange 4/5

That kind of thing is why I'm a mostly retired pathfinder.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

You should come out of retirement. The newer stuff is pretty easy combat wise. The difficulty is in the roleplay and skill challenges.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Netherlands

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Fortress of the Nail on high tier.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
You should come out of retirement. The newer stuff is pretty easy combat wise. The difficulty is in the roleplay and skill challenges.

I agree with Steven! The latest seasons have been awesome that way. My only problem experience was with Serpent's Rise. I'm just not meant to play evil.

Hmm

4/5

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
You should come out of retirement. The newer stuff is pretty easy combat wise. The difficulty is in the roleplay and skill challenges.

I'm just not meant to play evil.

Hmm

This is a fixable problem.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
You should come out of retirement. The newer stuff is pretty easy combat wise. The difficulty is in the roleplay and skill challenges.

I agree with Steven! The latest seasons have been awesome that way. My only problem experience was with Serpent's Rise. I'm just not meant to play evil.

Hmm

but wait? how did you get 3 stars than?

Everyone KNOWS the GM is "EVIL"! BAHAHAHAHA!

5/5 5/55/5

I found when I ran 7-19 The Labyrinth of the Hungry Ghosts that it can be very tough on players.

spoiler:

Especially if a certain person encourages them not to rest because there are people ahead in danger. I had a TPK when a party got surrounded in the final room. When it was time to run they did not have any items that could help them get away. The 2nd time I ran it I had a player run ahead in the first room she got teamed up on and was killed in the first room at high tier. Both times I would attribute it to poor tactics but it can get dangerous.

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
You should come out of retirement. The newer stuff is pretty easy combat wise. The difficulty is in the roleplay and skill challenges.

I agree with Steven! The latest seasons have been awesome that way. My only problem experience was with Serpent's Rise. I'm just not meant to play evil.

Hmm

Totally. Seasons 5, 6, and 7 have had a few scenarios per season that continue in Season 4's footsteps of character-challenging brutality, but they've also had a number of scenarios with less danger, and with different and interesting challenges. There have been some scenarios where you can avoid combat altogether. They've been doing a pretty good job mixing things up. Players in my area have been having fun, for sure. Just read some of the reviews and ask around and you should be able to avoid the really obnoxiously deadly ones.

4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

The Labyrinth of Hungry Ghosts can most certainly be deadly, especially if you've got players who ignore the name of the scenario. It is also one that rewards players for being able to make the skill checks.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

All for Immortality is pretty good and has a hard mode. It also targets some of the more common optimization build weak points, and then has a hard mode on top of that.

But at 12-15 level it will take them a while to get there.

1/5

Jack Brown wrote:

Just to play devil's advocate, but why? A large part of me says, let them overwhelm the scenarios. Then, maybe, if it stops being so much fun to hyper optimize, they will start making more balanced characters.

Has anyone anywhere ever seen that actually happen? I've seen over optimizers quit out of supposed boredom because things weren't challenging enough but I've never yet seen one of them reform.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ****

Jessex wrote:
Jack Brown wrote:

Just to play devil's advocate, but why? A large part of me says, let them overwhelm the scenarios. Then, maybe, if it stops being so much fun to hyper optimize, they will start making more balanced characters.

Has anyone anywhere ever seen that actually happen? I've seen over optimizers quit out of supposed boredom because things weren't challenging enough but I've never yet seen one of them reform.

Well, honestly, that is their choice. Depending on the players, that is unfortunate. However, there has been a trend locally in the Twin Cities (I believe) for players that start as hyper-optimizers to often tone it down as they play more. Especially if they start GMing a lot.

If they are complaining that they are bored, or unchallenged, that is a great time to sit down with them to ask why... and suggest that more rounded Pathfinders might be more in line with the campaign's story.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

Totally agreed... Our region's culture really encourages that.

Hmm

3/5 * Venture-Captain, Iowa–Spirit Lake

And just to be "that guy", while I know it's not a scenario per se, we found that even a fairly optimized party can have a fun time in the Emerald Spire Superdungeon (which is sanctioned for PFS).

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Assault on the Wound.

Liberty's Edge 3/5

I had a pretty awful experience with To Scale the Dragon. I forget what season it is, but I can say this:

One PC went down in the surprise round of the final fight, and two more went down in round two. We only survived because of judicious casting by our witch (which basically stunned the BBEG every other round), smoke pellets, a really good buffing character, epic-level teamwork, and extremely lucky crits on a full attack by my twf knife master rogue. We almost TPK'd. The BBEG is almost impossible to attack, has a stupid high AC, and on a full attack, is a death sentence for characters, even fully optimized ones.

Not to mention, a lot of skill checks that can mean life or death.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Steven Stewart wrote:
I had a pretty awful experience with To Scale the Dragon. I forget what season it is, but I can say this:

To Scale the Dragon is the scenario where I've dealt the most damage, right around 1,497,600 HP of damage if I recall correctly. Let's just say the body recovery was "unpleasant". One of two scenarios I've required a true resurrection on.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

My brother's bardbarian was literally eating it to death as it was killing him. When I played it, we lost the party witch before the rest of us could put it down. Much longer, and my cleric/fighter would have been lost too.

Grand Lodge 3/5

Oooooh, sounds fun! Now, who to play that scenario with.......

4/5

Run as written, To Scale the Dragon can have all of its major encounters removed fairly easily, though.

How to do so:
If the party roots out the Aspis mole before going up the mountain, you have no reason to fight the Aspis - he hasn't had time to send his message to the team, so they don't know you're coming.

If the party addresses the mcguffin quickly, the remorhaz doesn't arrive in time to fight them. The scenario explicitly states it arrives "a few minutes" after they start working on the ice/egg thing. As such, moving quickly allows the party to get back to the sleds before it arrives and the sleds move faster than it. This also removes the entire encounter back at base, as the taer no longer have a reason to freak out.

For me, it was a scenario run under 2 hours. I'll see what happens when I run it again at CotN, but I was not impressed.

I'll be running Elven Entanglement this weekend and that's a historic killer. I've also got the Ruby Masquerade from Hell's Rebels this weekend and it's...a little nuts. I think it's harder in PFS than it is in campaign mode because the GM is not able to make some adjustments, like leveling up NPCs and allowing them to attend if the players ask. Nothing like a CR 15 encounter for an 8-10 party, am I right?

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5

Having been at Serisan's table for To Scale a Dragon I think of it being a good scenario that rewards solid problem solving and not linear dungeon thinking. Admittedly one is not used to that in PFS, so we almost waited around long enough to trigger the nasty encounter just out of the expectation that there is going to be a fight, but we just ran with it and got the happy ending with lower risk.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I've never actually seen it run that way.

5/5 5/55/5

Elven Entanglement can be tough, but all the character deaths I have seen is because the GM used a Trample action in a surprise round and characters got trampled twice before they can act. Trample is a full round action and hence can not be done in a surprise round.

5/5 *** Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht

roysier wrote:
Elven Entanglement can be tough, but all the character deaths I have seen is because the GM used a Trample action in a surprise round and characters got trampled twice before they can act. Trample is a full round action and hence can not be done in a surprise round.

Elven Enganglement first encounter:
Also, I believe the tactics specifically call out it alternates trampling with full-attacking, so any GM who runs it trampling twice in a row is running it wrong.

We were barely playing up with three characters and a Kyra (level 7). Kyra bit the dust in the first round, but we managed to Cure her so she could channel us up again. Then it was fairly easy after that: spread out and range attack it to death. It definitely would've been a TPK if it trampled twice.

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

When I ran To Scale the Dragon the scariest combat encounter was over, if I remember correctly, early in the second round. Wasn't much of a challenge at all and it wasn't a terribly over-optimized party.

The party found the descent the most difficult part of the whole thing. So I guess that's something.

Liberty's Edge 3/5

Terminalmancer wrote:

When I ran To Scale the Dragon the scariest combat encounter was over, if I remember correctly, early in the second round. Wasn't much of a challenge at all and it wasn't a terribly over-optimized party.

The party found the descent the most difficult part of the whole thing. So I guess that's something.

We had several things working against us:

Bad positioning from the get go
Our main DPS died in the surprise round, second best was my rogue
No good ranged attacks
No way to get into better positioning due to reach and massive attack bonuses from BBEG

However, once I was actually able to bite into it with my full attack, it went down quick. Two rounds, I think, and I scored two crits off of my keen dagger. Otherwise, we would have been toast. I got lucky rolling miss chance (because I threw down a smoke pellet to give me sneak attack), and was able to land all of my attacks.

4/5

roysier wrote:
Elven Entanglement can be tough, but all the character deaths I have seen is because the GM used a Trample action in a surprise round and characters got trampled twice before they can act. Trample is a full round action and hence can not be done in a surprise round.

When you're playing a paranoid caster, those travel times are death. My psychic had something like 3 or 4 spell slots remaining when we got to the final encounter due to the scenario-specific travel rules. I was barely able to contribute because my in-character priority was ensuring my own safety while on missions, which meant buffing every time we ran out of duration. That included multiple buffs that existed only during travel time and multiple extend rods.

The first encounter is bad if run incorrectly. I am, however, well aware of how the trample rules work and the repeated point from the GM thread that the first encounter does not include a surprise round.

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Steven Stewart wrote:
Terminalmancer wrote:

When I ran To Scale the Dragon the scariest combat encounter was over, if I remember correctly, early in the second round. Wasn't much of a challenge at all and it wasn't a terribly over-optimized party.

The party found the descent the most difficult part of the whole thing. So I guess that's something.

We had several things working against us:

Bad positioning from the get go
Our main DPS died in the surprise round, second best was my rogue
No good ranged attacks
No way to get into better positioning due to reach and massive attack bonuses from BBEG

However, once I was actually able to bite into it with my full attack, it went down quick. Two rounds, I think, and I scored two crits off of my keen dagger. Otherwise, we would have been toast. I got lucky rolling miss chance (because I threw down a smoke pellet to give me sneak attack), and was able to land all of my attacks.

If you have something, anything, that targets will saves, it can be a pushover. Sleep hex will do it (good luck, poor beast, with that fort save). Glitterdust can nerf it a good bit. Heck, repeated castings of Color Spray will do the trick too. Not a lot one opponent can do when it's getting stunned round after round.

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