Twisty Passages and "When you close a location..."

[Longshot11]

We played Twisting Passages (WotR 5-3) last night, so I wanted to get the consensus on the scenario power:

"When you close a location, shuffle together the location cards of all locations that are not permanently closed. Then randomly deal 1 to each location that does not have a location card."

We player it that it means "When you *permanently* close a location...", and we defeated the villain by temp-closing some locations.

Is what we were supposed to do:
- Player 1 temp-closes (which, it has been argued, represents "closing", period);
- all open location cards are shuffled, *including the temp-closed one*!
- we deal all location cards
- Player 2 attempts to close his location, which can now be *the same "location" that Player 1 closed!
- due to the apparent disassociation between a "location" and a "location card" this scenario introduces, is Player 1's location now still "temp-closed" (even though it has a new location card, which "To Close" requirements have not been met)? Or is it "open" for purposes of Villain escape?

(There's been some back and forth on the whole "closing Vs. closed Vs. temp-closed-but-actually-open" location mess before, here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tyan?Vellexia-clarification#1
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tylo?Conflagration-at-the-Villains-location#10

[Talonius]

You make the attempts to temporarily close open locations before you resolve the villain fight so that second scenario shouldn't come up.

All players would temp close to prevent the villain from escaping, then if the villain is defeated he would escape as normally but all locations not permanently closed would be shuffled around... at least that's how I handled it in my solo 3 character playthrough.

[Malcolm_Reynolds]

Temporary closing never counts for powers that care about closing.

[Frencois]

As it is now very clearly written in the rules, temp closing means the location is "closed" only for the purpose of seeing if the villain escapes, not for any other effect. So the power of the scenario is not triggered by temp closing.

[elcoderdude]

Frencois wrote:

As it is now very clearly written in the rules, temp closing means the location is "closed" only for the purpose of seeing if the villain escapes, not for any other effect. So the power of the scenario is not triggered by temp closing.

Yes.

The Conflagration discussion indicates that directives about whether you can or cannot close locations DO apply to attempts to temporarily close locations.

But the question here is one of an effect caused by closing a location. Temporarily closing a location never causes such effects.

[Longshot11]

First, I want to clarify - there wouldn't be an argument, if the power said "When a location is closed..."

The power however, says "When YOU CLOSE..", i.e. it means (imho) the action of *attempting and successfully fulfilling the 'To Close' requirements on a location card* - for which, in the threads linked above there seems to be a consensus- represents the act of "closing".

In other words, the location is NOT Closed (for purposes other than Villain escaping), but I *DID* successfully CLOSE the location (hence, the "temporary closed" verbiage). And the scenario power doesn't seem to care if I temp- or perma-closed, it only cares that I *closed*.

As I said, we played it that the power triggers on perma-close only, but if that's the intent - the wording just seems inconsistent to me (why is it not "When a location is closed..." again?) and leaves room for speculation. Apologies in advance, if I"m again failing my check against the language barrier (as seemed to be the case in the Conflagration thread above, with the 'passive voice' mentioned by Elcoderdude)

EDIT: Ninja'd by Elcoderdude

elcoderdude wrote:

The Conflagration discussion indicates that directives about whether you can or cannot close locations DO apply to attempts to temporarily close locations.

But the question here is one of an effect caused by closing a location. Temporarily closing a location never causes such effects.

From that thread, I couldn't get that there's a distinction between effects "about whether you can or cannot close" and effects that care "whether you successfully attempted the To Close requirements".

Is your point that when I (would) attempt to fulfill To Close - *I AM Close-ing*, but even if I succed - I did *NOT Close*?

[elcoderdude]

The rulebook text:

Mummy's Mask p.16-17 wrote:

Temporarily closing a location only prevents the villain from escaping there during this encounter; it does not trigger any of the other effects of closing a location.

Conflagration:

Conflagration wrote:

While displayed, this location may not be closed.

Twisting Passages scenario:

Twisting Passages wrote:

When you close a location, <something happens>.

Conflagration cares about whether you are attempting to close a location. Both an attempt to temporarily close a location and an attempt to permanently close a location are attempts to close a location.

The Twisting Passages scenario declares an effect of closing a location. Temporarily closing a location doesn't cause any effect except preventing the villain from escaping.

So to answer your question: when you attempt to fulfill "When Closing", you are closing. Always.

If you succeed -- you closed the location. If you were attempting to temporarily close the location, you closed the location in one and only one sense: the villain can't escape there. For all other purposes, the location isn't closed.

[Malcolm_Reynolds]

elcoderdude wrote:

The rulebook text:

Mummy's Mask p.16-17 wrote:

Temporarily closing a location only prevents the villain from escaping there during this encounter; it does not trigger any of the other effects of closing a location.

That's what I meant; this answer was better. Things like the Blessing of Gozreh do help when closing, whether temporarily or permanently.