A question about the studious librarian bard archetype and spellbooks

[Hmm]

As some of you may have already figured out, I'm a bit partial to bards. When Joe Ducey told me that there was a bard archetype named the Studious Librarian in Inner Sea Intrigue, I know that I would have to play one. Really, a librarian bard archetype? How can I resist this?

But I have a question about comparative arcane studies.

Comparative Arcane Studies:

Comparative Arcane Studies (Su): At 6th level, the studious librarian is exposed to a wide variety of magical writing, and can use his own magic to duplicate spells from other classes' spell lists. Once per day, a studious librarian can cast any spell from the bard, sorcerer/ wizard, or witch spell lists from a scroll or spellbook in hand as if it were one of his bard spells known, expending a bard spell slot of the same spell level to cast the desired spell. Casting a spell from a scroll this way does not cause the spell to vanish from the scroll. A spell cast in this way cannot be modified by metamagic. The studious librarian gains one additional daily use of this ability at 10th level and again every 4 bard levels thereafter, to a maximum of four times a day at 18th.

This sounds like this archetype that is crying out to have a spellbook. I want a spellbook for this bard very badly. I know that there are several named spellbooks for sale in the Arcane Anthology. Do I need to buy one of these to get a spellbook of my own? If I have one of these as a starter spellbook, can I then scribe into it with spells that I learn from other arcane casters?

For example, the Swordsman's Analects can be purchased for 250 gold. If I pay that price, can that one be my spellbook, and can I then scribe other spells into it and exchange spells with other casters like real wizards do?

I and my brand new gnome bard, Calpurnia Underhall Poshkettle ("Cup"), want to know!

Hmm

[BigNorseWolf]

I think arcane anthology or a level of wizard are the only ways to get a spellbook in pfs. I'm not aware of a mechanic that would let a non wizard scribe spells into that or any other spellbook.

You could theoretically borrow the party wizards spellbook but that would probably require PVP and trusty budy to pry it out of their cold dead hands.

[Nefreet]

*scratches head in puzzlement*

Arcane casters aren't my forte, but why can't you just purchase a spellbook from the Core Rulebook and use Spellcraft to copy from an NPC's spellbook?

Or, if you don't have Spellcraft, have someone in the party roll their check using your gold and your book.

[DesolateHarmony]

Scribing spells into a spellbook is a feature in the wizard class originally, and later in other prepared caster classes. The rules for scribing a spell are in the magic chapter of the CRB, and specifically describe wizards doing the scribing.

This question has come up several times, usually pertaining to sorcerers and the Mnemonic Vestment magic item. The ruling for PFS, if I remember correctly, was that sorcerers and others could not scribe spells for spellbooks, but sometimes spellbooks are on chronicle sheets for certain adventures.

My question, which never got answered, was: can a PC prepared spellcaster write in a spellbook for my sorcerer?

[Hmm]

That would be a very interesting question. I could I suppose just have a scroll library for this, but it would be great to be able to scribe spells into my spellbook without having to dip wizard or arcanist.

I would love to interact with other PCs and trade spells, especially since this archetype looks like they'd actually get use out of spell books.

Hmm

[crashcanuck]

Since that ability doesn't say it uses up the scroll why not buy a bunch of scrolls and have them bound into a book? Not sure what you would cost that at.

[Hmm]

Oh, I could do riffle scrolls...

But I'd love to have a spell book without dipping wizard, arcanist or magus.

[crashcanuck]

Is there any way you can priceout and justify hiring a wizard to transcribe spells into a blank spellbook that you purchased?

[andreww]

crashcanuck wrote:

Since that ability doesn't say it uses up the scroll why not buy a bunch of scrolls and have them bound into a book? Not sure what you would cost that at.

Largely the issue will be cost. Scribing spells into a spellbook is cheap, buying scrolls gets expensive pretty damn fast.

[BartonOliver]

As much as I like the archetype (and mechanically I think it's a straight upgrade to base bard), I think it's fair to have a significant cost to building up the library of scrolls/spellbooks for the bard (whether it's opportunity cost in dipping out for a spellbook class or in buying named spellbooks and scrolls). You're functionally getting an upgraded Mnemonic Vestments for free that stacks with Mnemonic Vestments. That said there are a number of archetypes (and even items) that don't fit the original spellbook design (i.e. Wizard only), it would be nice to see a set ruling put somewhere more visible like Campaign clarifications so that it becomes a set and known policy.

In fact it would potentially save some headaches/variation in a secondary arena. In core Wizards can learn non-Core spells by adding them to their spellbook, IIRC this ruling extended (in some fashion) to Sorcerer as well. What about Divine Casters who 'know' all their spells by prayer, by allowing a spellbook (even possibly reflavored as prayerbook/hymnal) extends that ability to all casters.

[andreww]

Joe Ducey wrote:

In fact it would potentially save some headaches/variation in a secondary arena. In core Wizards can learn non-Core spells by adding them to their spellbook, IIRC this ruling extended (in some fashion) to Sorcerer as well. What about Divine Casters who 'know' all their spells by prayer' by allowing a spellbook (even possibly reflavored as prayerbook/hymnal) extends that ability to all casters

Core allows non wizards to gain access to non core spells if they appear as a scroll on the chronicle and you purchase and expend it. This applies to divine as well as arcane casters as far as I am aware.

[BartonOliver]

andreww wrote:

Joe Ducey wrote:

In fact it would potentially save some headaches/variation in a secondary arena. In core Wizards can learn non-Core spells by adding them to their spellbook, IIRC this ruling extended (in some fashion) to Sorcerer as well. What about Divine Casters who 'know' all their spells by prayer' by allowing a spellbook (even possibly reflavored as prayerbook/hymnal) extends that ability to all casters

Core allows non wizards to gain access to non core spells if they appear as a scroll on the chronicle and you purchase and expend it. This applies to divine as well as arcane casters as far as I am aware.

It could, I remember it being Sorcerer, but it is a while ago. The visibility would be nice, and making it adding to a spellbook just makes it easily visible and allows clerics the ability to trade with each other the way wizards can which extends beyond the scroll in scenario possibility. (Same with Druids and Sorcerers for that matter)

[Hmm]

Clerics and druids don't have to trade with one another except in core, because they automatically get all the spells available from their deities or the natural world. There were divine spellbooks in Arcane Anthology, though, so maybe this will be more of a thing.

I would like to see spellbooks open up a bit more as an option though. I love the idea of trading spells with other players. Dumb question... can you only scribe spells from your list? If I dipped magus, would I be only able to scribe magus spells, or could I scribe all arcane spells? So many questions arise here.

Hmm

[BartonOliver]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

Clerics and druids don't have to trade with one another except in core, because they automatically get all the spells available from their deities or the natural world. There were divine spellbooks in Arcane Anthology, though, so maybe this will be more of a thing.

I would like to see spellbooks open up a bit more as an option though. I love the idea of trading spells with other players. Dumb question... can you only scribe spells from your list? If I dipped magus, would I be only able to scribe magus spells, or could I scribe all arcane spells? So many questions arise here.

Hmm

Traditionally, only spells on your list. Magus can take spells on both list from wizard and vice versa, even more interesting an Alchemist can scribe to their formula book from a Wizard or Magus (or others potentially, assuming it's on their list), but a Wizard can't scribe from the Alchemist

[BretI]

Joe Ducey wrote:

but a Wizard can't scribe from the Alchemist

...unless they have the Alchemical Affinity arcane discovery. Arcanists can also get these.

[nosig]

another couple threads on this same subject...

Spellbooks for nonspellbook characters.

and

Sorcerers Spellbook.

hope this helps...

and one of my posts from those other threads...

...the following is just MY OPINION:

In the spirit of trying to enable players to do things they consider cool - I have considered how, under the current rules, a non-spellbook PC might gain a spellbook with spells in it.

I do this mainly because I hate to tell people "No, you can't do that!", I would rather say "cool idea, let's see how we can do that in the rules!". I like to play with my players, not against them...

and I think I have two. I'm not really sure they are not prohibited in the rules someplace, but I'm pitching them out here for someone to point out why it wont work... or to help players do something "kewl!".

1) A 1st level spellbook using PC (a wizard or alchemist or magus) buys an extra (blank) book. He then scribes as many spells in it as he can afford, or gain access to. The player notes this on his 3rd chronicle and on the ITS for that PC. He then uses the re-write rules to recreate the PC as a Non-spellbook PC without changing his equipment....

2) A PC takes one level of a spellbook using class (say wizard). He then scribes as many spells as he can into his book. Perhaps he creates an extra spellbook, or buys a Blessed Book. He then uses the Re-Training rules to retrain his Wizard level as a non-spellbook using class.

I think both of those would be ways for a Non-spellbook using PC to get a spelllbook allowed in the current rules, and in both cases those would be spellbooks that he scribed.

[Hmm]

Huh. So I could take a level of wizard or arcanist and then retrain, but keep the book?

Yes, that would work, but boy... does that feel under-handed.

So if I have to multiclass to get a spellbook, I'm thinking that I'd get more bang for my buck out of arcanists. At least they have to make some use of charisma.

My bard just wants a spellbook!

Hmm

[Nefreet]

Good in-character reason for having the book after Retraining: Wizard School drop out.

Reselling your textbook just doesn't get you much these days.

[BretI]

You can retrain and keep a copy of the book. The original free book goes into the same dumpster that free firearms (from Gunslinger) and other class features go.

[nosig]

BretI wrote:

You can retrain and keep a copy of the book. The original free book goes into the same dumpster that free firearms (from Gunslinger) and other class features go.

and even though you have to pay for scribing the "backup book" that you keep, you don't have to scribe all the 0 level spells that would eat up a chunk of money normally... unless you wanted them in it.

[Meager Rolmug]

I like this archetype also, but my question is do you still lose the "dirge of doom" performance in PFS even though its replacement is unuseable in PFS?

"Critical Research Focus (Ex)

At 8th level, the studious librarian threatens a critical hit on a Research check with a roll of 18, 19, or 20. He gains a +4 bonus on Research checks to confirm a critical hit. This ability replaces dirge of doom."

[Ferious Thune]

The research mechanic does come up in PFS. Not very often, but it is used.

[Cup]

This archetype is so strong that having one less usable ability balances it out! Cup is a very happy Studious Librarian, even without a strong replacement for Dirge of Doom. Given the spellbook campaign clarification, she even has her own spellbook.

Happy, happy Cup!

Hmm

[Meager Rolmug]

Ferious Thune wrote:

The research mechanic does come up in PFS. Not very often, but it is used.

Well than that's a pretty poor trade off.

[Meager Rolmug]

I really don't see the need for a spellbook...at most you will use the ability twice a day and maybe most times not at all. Consider that "Comparative Arcane Studies" doesn't start till level six and most times your already known bard spells are probably the best alternate during battles. I see it as mostly a way to do some cool out of battle stuff. The scrolls i'd get would be Remove Disease, Remove Curse, Neutralize Poison, Blood Biography, Locate Creature, Locate Object, maybe Scrying,Comprehend Languages. I might buy some protective spells like resist energy communal, wind wall, and a few others. But even this extensive list isn't that expensive. Sometimes you'll hoard the uses of "Comparative Arcane Studies" and a spell level slot, not knowing what you'll need next...and end up not using it at all. That being siad it will be interesting to see how it works out for you. Keep us updated.

[Belafon]

This thread has been necro’d from before last year’s Spellbook FAQ.

FAQ wrote:

I'm not a wizard, but one of my character options references using a spellbook. Can I acquire my own spellbook?

Yes. If any of your character's abilities reference using a spellbook, you may purchase a spellbook and scribe spells in to it as per the standard rules in the Magic chapter of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook for adding new spells to a spellbook. For example, an oracle with the Lore mystery and the arcane archivist revelation could purchase and fill her own spellbooks (Advanced Player's Guide 49).

[Azothath]

thanks - that's what Hillary in 2016 was looking for.

=====
advice on spending hard earned gold
if you think you are going to use the scroll, buy the spell that way as the value of the scroll could be used (PP expenditures!). Scribed spells in books lock up that value and you only get half back when you sell them.