Hi there.
After reading about it being possible to have two Blackblades, I decided that it might fit a character concept of been trying to fnd a way to create for a while.
Here's the thread I found it in: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rfsm?Would-you-two-Shut-UP-Twin-Black-Blades-a nd
Requirements: It means I'd apparently need to take 3 levels in Magus (Bladebound) & 3 levels in Arcanist (Blade Adept) to have both blades.
Preferences: I'd very much like to be a Human (maaaybe a Half-elf) who uses two Bastard Swords (I'm aware that it is not the best choice, but it's how I envision the character).
Problems I can see with it: Casting spells with somatic components (with full hands), being weak in the late game, Shortage of feats (unless I am Kensai), reduced spellcasting ability, and low AC or BAB may be a problem (depending on build).
Anyone have any ideas for builds that could make this character somewhat viable? I don't them need to be the strongest character ever, but I would like to get some help with making them the best that I can within my modest parameters. All input is appreciated.
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I'm fairly certain that you cannot make this viable, and probably not even legal. RAI is definitely that it's impossible to have both Black Blades. You would also end up with one slightly weaker Black Blade and one totally crippled Black Blade due to multiclassing, as well as crippled Arcanist class features and caster level. If you really want two intelligent weapons, you don't need these archetypes. Just get a regular intelligent magic item, though it won't advance as you level up.
The only effective TWF Magus I know of is the Mindblade, since it casts Psychic spells rather than Arcane, removing the somatic component (but making Concentration more difficult). It doesn't mesh well with Bladebound, though.
Two bastard swords would absolutely cripple pretty much any character, as you wouldn't be able to actually hit anything.
A lot will depend on your GM.
For example, some might rule that you only get one Black Blade at the combined levels of the two classes.
If they DO allow two Black Blades then I'd suggest taking 3 levels in each class to get the two swords, taking the Eldritch Blade exploit, and then going into Eldritch Knight and using that to boost up the arcanist caster level / black blade level while also increasing BAB.
Your Magus levels and associated black blade will be comparatively weak. Some GMs might allow Boon Companion to boost the effective level (of each blade separately) or some similar option. The Esoteric Training and Eclectic Training could allow you to boost the caster level of both classes if your GM allows them. Et cetera.
The Weapon Training trait will give you a +1 trait bonus to bastard sword damage, but you'll need to take exotic weapon proficiency and might want Hand's Autonomy to reduce the TWF penalties if you can spare the feats.
There are already multiple threads about whether or not it is illegal. It's ambiguous. I'd much rather focus on trying to make a build that could work than discuss the legality, because that will come down to the specific GM in the end.
Two bastard swords is not ideal, but I'm not trying to minmax. Just trying to make a fun character that doesn't totally suck.
Boon Companion wont work unfortunately, as they are neither animal companions nor familiars.
It's not just "not ideal;" two one-handed weapons is crippling. TWF already has attack penalty issues with a decent setup.
Keep in mind that wielding two weapons isn't necessarily two-weapon fighting. Two-Weapon Fighting involves gaining additional attacks over and above your iterative allowance from BAB. But you can fight with two weapons using just your iterative attacks and it isn't TWF; you suffer no attack penalties nor reduced Str bonus to damage because neither weapon is an off-hand. So, for example, you might have Defending on one weapon and stack the other one with more offensive abilities. Lets say you have 3 iterative attacks. You could make the first two with your more offensive weapon, then make the last attack with the Defending weapon, pumping all its enhancement into AC bonus. It doesn't matter if it hits or not, just that you attempted to attack with it, and now you have some AC bonus by burning your least accurate iterative attack (that, lets face it, probably wouldn't have hit anyway).
Though, honestly, I'd find it more interesting to have a Double Sword with a different intelligence in each end. Maybe a pair of Black Blades that were welded together?
nennafir wrote: Mindblade Earlier, I wrote: The only effective TWF Magus I know of is the Mindblade, since it casts Psychic spells rather than Arcane, removing the somatic component (but making Concentration more difficult). It doesn't mesh well with Bladebound, though.
Kazaan wrote: Keep in mind that wielding two weapons isn't necessarily two-weapon fighting. Two-Weapon Fighting involves gaining additional attacks over and above your iterative allowance from BAB. But you can fight with two weapons using just your iterative attacks and it isn't TWF; you suffer no attack penalties nor reduced Str bonus to damage because neither weapon is an off-hand. So, for example, you might have Defending on one weapon and stack the other one with more offensive abilities. Lets say you have 3 iterative attacks. You could make the first two with your more offensive weapon, then make the last attack with the Defending weapon, pumping all its enhancement into AC bonus. It doesn't matter if it hits or not, just that you attempted to attack with it, and now you have some AC bonus by burning your least accurate iterative attack (that, lets face it, probably wouldn't have hit anyway).
Though, honestly, I'd find it more interesting to have a Double Sword with a different intelligence in each end. Maybe a pair of Black Blades that were welded together?
A Black Blade has to be a one handed sword, a rapier, or a sword cane. I'd like to stick to my concept anyway. Human, two Bastard Swords.
I'm not sure if there's a way to give them the Defender enchantment, but I'll look into it.
I really like your idea for how to play it, but I'm not sure that I fully understand. Basically you just stick to the number of attacks provided by your base attack and you don't receive penalties for making use of different weapons?
There's also the 'Animate Weapon' Magus Arcana. A second sword doesn't necessarily have to be in hand to be of use perhaps. It would possibly keep me from having to use Still Spell feat or Spell Storing equipment.
Tailer Tombs wrote: I really like your idea for how to play it, but I'm not sure that I fully understand. Basically you just stick to the number of attacks provided by your base attack and you don't receive penalties for making use of different weapons?
There's also the 'Animate Weapon' Magus Arcana. A second sword doesn't necessarily have to be in hand to be of use perhaps. It would possibly keep me from having to use Still Spell feat or Spell Storing equipment.
For example, say you have +11 BAB. This gives you 3 iterative attacks at +11/+6/+1. You could make those three weapons with any combination of weapons you have available. You could start with a Longsword in hand and make all three with that, you could make two with the Longsword, drop it, and quickdraw some other weapon, you could start with a Longsword and a Dagger and make two attacks with one of them and one with the other, or even throw in Unarmed Strike and attack with Longsword/Dagger/Unarmed Strike. Basically, it doesn't matter what weapon you assign to each iterative attack; they are all main-hand attacks and you don't suffer any penalties associated with TWF.
However, you could designate one weapon you have as your off-hand weapon for that round (and that round only), in order to gain additional attacks with it in excess of what you get from your BAB iteratives. When doing so, you take the appropriate TWF peanlties (based on whether or not you have the TWF feat and also whether or not the off-hand is a light weapon), and the off-hand weapon gets reduced Str and Power Attack bonuses. You could even switch which weapon is your off-hand on a round-by-round basis.
Though, one thing to keep in mind is that none of this is compatible with Spell Combat since it requires 1) a free hand to cast your spell even if it has no somatic component, and 2) you must make all your main-hand attacks with a single, hand-associated weapon. What you'd need to do is alternate between using Spell Combat and a normal Full-Attack in order to wield two weapons effectively as a Magus. There are certain items that let you quickly "store away" a weapon. One last thing to mention is that a Black Blade isn't necessarily a "sword"; it can be any one-handed slashing weapon (or a rapier or sword cane). That could include a one-handed Axe or even a Whip.
Where are you finding something that says you can fight with two weapons without two-weapon fighting? I'm not familiar with this.
Bloodrealm wrote: Where are you finding something that says you can fight with two weapons without two-weapon fighting? I'm not familiar with this. FAQ
CBDunkerson wrote: Bloodrealm wrote: Where are you finding something that says you can fight with two weapons without two-weapon fighting? I'm not familiar with this. FAQ Huh. Interesting. I suppose you might be able to use that to take advantage of a weapon with different properties like Trip or Disarm. You might even be able to drag someone closer with a whip via Serpent Lash and then attack with a better damage weapon.
This doesn't change the fact that gimping one of the two blades or having two weak ones is a bad idea. You also can't have Defending on either one of the Black Blades to use as Kazaan suggested. You'd be combining levels in a 3/4 BAB d8 HD class and a 1/2 BAB d6 HD class for a martial build, as well. On top of that, you'd need the Broad Study Magus Arcana or the Spell Strike Exploit to be able to Spellstrike with Arcanist spells, and only the former will let you Spell Combat with them. The Still Magic Arcana is definitely a must, too.
Oh, and remember that your crippled Arcane Pool and Arcane Reservoir are separate, as are your caster levels, save DCs, and spell progression, and you can't use Consume Spells for your Magus stuff.
Oh! And you don't automatically gain proficiency in Bastard Sword.
Okay. What if I remained dual wielding, but ditched the levels in Arcanist and didn't attempt the second black blade?
Tailer Tombs wrote: Okay. What if I remained dual wielding, but ditched the levels in Arcanist and didn't attempt the second black blade? It would be much better than doing it with the Arcanist levels, but still will be mostly a bad idea.
By the way, I was reading through Leadership and I noticed you can get an intelligent magic item as a cohort. This may be a way to have two intelligent magic weapons without gimping your Black Blade. You'd still need to pay money to improve it the way a normal item would, though it will progressively get other upgrades scaling with your Leadership score. The Called weapon property that you can get for free on the item through the Leadership advancement might even allow you to pull some shenanigans to cast a multi-touch spell and getting your second weapon back into your hand, though you won't be able to TWF Spellstrike until the next turn at the least (dropping an item you're holding is a free action and using the Called property is a swift action, so drop, cast Chill Touch or Frostbite, hold the charge, teleport weapon back into hand, move to enemy).
What about the Enruned Dagger third party Arcana? Is there any way to make a bastard sword into a light weapon?
Thinking of doing Strength because I am thinking about a Bladebound Hexcrafter with a one level dip into fighter.
Not optimal by any means, but I think I want to take:
Possessed Hand
Hand's Autonomy
Two Weapon Fighting
I'll use a Major Drawback to get there more quickly, since I settled on Half-elf for the Elf Magus Favored Class bonus. I may decide to get my Exotic Weapon Proficiency from Half-elf too. The other option would be to get my Exotic Weapon Proficiency from the Weapon Champion 3rd party Fighter Archetype. It would make me proficient whatever other swords I might want to use too.
Two weapons might be nice when my arcane pool starts to run dry.
Tailer Tombs wrote: What about the Enruned Dagger third party Arcana? Is there any way to make a bastard sword into a light weapon? A Sunblade is a Bastard Sword that spoofs the handling of a Shortsword. As such, you can treat it as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon (whichever is best for you at the time) and can also use it with "choose a weapon" abilities for either weapon; it will benefit from either Weapon Focus(Bastard Sword) or Weapon Focus(Shortsword), though they won't stack. So maybe a Black Blade Bastard Sword as the main-hand weapon and an Intelligent Sunblade as the off-hand?
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