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Hi there!
So it's been a while since I played pathfinder. My pathfinder group broke up, my wife plays 5th edition, etc. Excuses, I know.
I've been asked to join a pathfinder game at 15th level, 25 Point buy, and 240,000 Gold Pieces worth of Gear to start our journey into high level/epic adventures. And well, I'm intimidated as all **** as this is not the level one, low magic games of pathfinder I typically played. I'm trying to remember how to do this, and I have TWO DAYS to get a sheet ready. It usually takes me longer than that to make a level one character lol. So yea, to say I'm open to suggestions is putting it mildly.
Making things even more fun, they hope to find a caster, so reading the dozens of spells around is taking me forever, trying to remember the changes in the system (Shield is AMAZING in 5th edition, not so much in pathfinder).
Anywho, the party is:
Hunter/witch/Arcane Archer
Bloodrager
Fighter
Paladin
So I'm thinking 'Wizard' is the ideal choice here. That's... as far I've come so far lol. I'm trying to read up on archtypes and specialist schools and prestige classes... and I'm getting overwhelmed. I haven't even LOOKED at races yet, nevermind gear.
I need to focus if I'm going to get this down in time, and I don't mind admitting I could use some help. If anyone has the time to spare, I'd love to hear your suggestions of what to look at, some build ideas that won't leave me the laughing stock of the party. Reading Treantmonk has given me some ideas for a summoning/buffer type, though with the last update being in 2009 (at least on the page google brings up) I thought it might be prudent to ask for a second opinion, that I'm not putting all my eggs into an out of date basket, as it were.
Thanks for reading this rambling mess of a topic. I appreciate your time, and your potential aid. Either way, I wish you well. Happy gaming out there ;)
Hey there! I can totally appreciate how you're feeling right now. PF is pretty darn complex at higher levels, with lots of moving parts to keep track of, especially as a caster.
With that in mind, I'm going to suggest doing what you can to cut down/minimize the amount of things to keep track of.
Firstly, I think you're much better off playing a Sorcerer than a Wizard in this particular case. Doing so would inherently limit the number of spells you need to learn about and keep track of, and should be *much* easier to manage. (I might have suggested Arcanist, but their mechanics are a little harder to pick up in such a short time.)
Secondly, I would recommend that yopu actually stay away from making a summoning-focused build. Again, while a strong option, it is a lot of extra paperwork to keep track of. In order not to slow the game down to a crawl you really need to have a good handle on the statistics and abilities for all your summons (doing up cards or relying on sites like Summoner's Scribe helps, but you still need to have a handle on what each creature can do). I'd just avoid it this go around.
As for how to build your Sorcerer, I'd recommend looking at the Arcane bloodline (because it is really good), but you could also look at other ones if you liked the flavour. The Sage "wildblooded" variant could also be a good fit if your crew needs a partymember with high Intelligence (it swaps CHA for INT as the primary casting stat).
In terms of your spell selections, I would go for a mix of different things, while having a few key tricks. So pick some defensive spells (Mage Armor, Mirror Image, for example), important utility or buffing spells (Fly, Haste), maybe a damage-oriented spell or two, and then maybe focus on some control/debuff spells.
Metamagic can also be really helpful. At 15th level, you will have access to the Spell Perfection feat, which is simply fantastic, and can be a game changer when applied to your 'main' spell (usually it is best to pick something in the 3rd to 4th level, so you can stack metamagic on top of it).
The pre-requisites for Spell Perfection are steep, but you'll probably want metamagic anyways: my two favourties are Quicken Spell and Persistent Spell. For a blasting build, people love Dazing Spell, but I personally find it has serious cheese potential.
If you like any of these ideas, let me know. If you can give me a sense of whether you want to take a controller approach, or a blaster approach, or something different, it might help us provide more specific advice on spell choices, etc.
It's also worth figuring out what sorts of spells the Arcane Archer and Bloodrager will be casting (no need for two people to be dropping Haste, for example).
Lastly, you might want to consider a divine magic character in this group setup, as you guys are lacking a little in that area. Much like the choice of Sorcerer over Wizard, I would recommend Oracle over Cleric if you go that route.
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I'd actually recommend a bard for a few reasons:
1) your party consists of a mess of frontliners/attack rollers, so your bardsong will make you an MVP.
2) You will be the knowledge/skill monkey they really need.
3) With shadow spells (Shadow Conjuration/Shadow Evocation) you can pretty much whip up whatever you need. This can get crazy, but I'd recommend sticking to classics (fireball, snowball, etc..) and easing into the pool of options
4) Everyone will love you.
5) Focus on classic buff spells like Haste, Heroism, Energy Resistance/Protection (communal versions!), Fly, etc...
6) Everyone will love you!
7) By level 15, a lot of the Bard's actions have gained a lot of action economy, so you'll usually be throwing out 2-3 buff actions in your first rounds (quickened rod to haste, start a bard song, and some other buff spell).
8) Also use classic debuff spells like GlitterDust or Grease. Your saves will be pretty decent, and even a round of blindness will give your party some great bonuses (also it counters invisibility). Grease won't be terribly effective... until you slap it on the big-bad's sword and he's gotta make a save or drop it every time he tries to use it. Everybody rolls poorly at some point, and a nasty giant without their tree-like greatsword isn't half as threatening.
Basically, don't go to be a combat powerhouse, keep it simple and work on making your party better. It's pretty much never going to change, everyone will appreciate your presence, and the shadow spells will give you all the flexibility you'll need to hop in for damage.
-edit-
Expanding into the Future: Start collecting wands. Grab some wands of infernal healing and (for the paladin) Cure Light Wounds to heal the party between fights. Fairy Fire is a crazy useful spell to counter a lot of higher level illusion crap that gets thrown around. P
Divvox provides some really good alternative advice -- everyone loves a bard!
I might counter the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation suggestion though. Don't get me wrong -- it offers great flexibility and can be fantastic in the right circumstances -- but it is also a little complicated to get a good handle on, and the fact that it really opens up a wide range of options is a double-edged sword, in that the scope of possible effects may be a bit mind-boggling (and as you've seen, I am recommending that you try to limit the scope of options for the first time back in the saddle, especially at high level).
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I'll echo the idea of sorcerer if you're looking to cut down on having to learn a huge amount of new spells in a short time. Better to know the spells you have well and be able to use them effectively than trying to choose which one from dozens to memorise and having to look them up every time as you've never used them before.
As The Steel Refrain noted, summoning is a lot of book keeping and it looks like you already have a pretty good martial lineup, focus on control spells that lock down the enemy or give your team more movement advantages. Something as simple as getting a wand of mass featherstep for your party and using it before you enter a dangerous area, then casting stone call on the area the fight is in can change the entire dynamic, in that example, your team can move fine, anyone who can't fly or burrow is totally screwed, no charging, no 5ft steps, etc.
For your spell choices my general suggestion for a sorcerer is to pick; damage, control, utility. Until you have one from each category for a level and then start again, it makes sure that whatever situation you face at least ONE of your spells for each level should be useful.
I suggest a bard also, slightly less spells and class features to pick from, and a great buffer.
And jumping straight in at lvl 15 cold sounds extremely unpleasant. An option is to look at the NPC guide and grab a character you like the look of and just make a few changes to make it yours. You will have some extra gold to spend but it will get you started and playing in two days.
Critical Melee Bard
Disarm, Trip, Summon Bard
Enchanter Bard
I'd actually recommend a bard for a few reasons:
1) your party consists of a mess of frontliners/attack rollers, so your bardsong will make you an MVP.
2) You will be the knowledge/skill monkey they really need.4) Everyone will love you.
5) Focus on classic buff spells like Haste, Heroism, Energy Resistance/Protection (communal versions!), Fly, etc...
6) Everyone will love you!
7) By level 15, a lot of the Bard's actions have gained a lot of action economy, so you'll usually be throwing out 2-3 buff actions in your first rounds (quickened rod to haste, start a bard song, and some other buff spell).
8) Also use classic debuff spells like GlitterDust or Grease. Your saves will be pretty decent, and even a round of blindness will give your party some great bonuses (also it counters invisibility). Grease won't be terribly effective... until you slap it on the big-bad's sword and he's gotta make a save or drop it every time he tries to use it. Everybody rolls poorly at some point, and a nasty giant without their tree-like greatsword isn't half as threatening.Basically, don't go to be a combat powerhouse, keep it simple and work on making your party better. It's pretty much never going to change, everyone will appreciate your presence, and the shadow spells will give you all the flexibility you'll need to hop in for damage.
Yes a Bard or a Life oracle.
Play a support character. Give your character a interesting race and a few personality quirks- but nothing bad, jut funny.
Here is the http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m612?Guide-to-the-Class-Guides
I suggest:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ogz8HL6GeguT-tN3-6HxXiF_G7mg_tyAQ59V9kP g6g4/edit?pli=1
and
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b1hq_xhfCFjtAyjJMKrdtxRbtDEC1kNm6ZYfvS6 HqIw/edit
or
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WdtrZCESRmVfljXY196wMrMLTnS8Uzk4DEk3oQd VZok/edit?hl=en_US
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2naj4?Life-Oracle-advice-needed-feat-spells-and
In either case, you want to maximize CHA and maybe a small race. You can help the Paladin with Diplomacy.
Dont worry about doing damage. In fact you could play that your PC doesnt like to kill things himself.
Fun races: Kitsune, Halfling, Gnome.
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The Groups Lacks a Full 9th Level caster. The Paladin could handle healing and status removal depending on the build.
I recommend something that can control a crowd and reduce incoming damage.
Half-Orc
Invoker + Winter Witch 5/Crossblooded Sorcerer Orc/Draconic (Frost Dragon) 1/ Winter Witch PRC 9
25 Point Buy:
Str: 8, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Int: 20, Wis: 12, Cha: 8
(All Level up Bonuses go into INT)
Favored Class bonus: +5 HP for witch.
Alternative Racial Traits:
Sacred Tattoo
Traits:
Fate's Favored (Religion)
Magical Knack- Witch
(Extra if Drawback is allowed) Wayang Spell Hunter- Snowball
Drawback:
Warded Against Nature
Feats:
1: Improved Initiative
3: Rime Spell
5: Intensify Spell
7: Improved Familiar
9: Empower Spell
11: Spell Focus- Evocation
13: Quicken Spell
15: Spell Perfection- Snowball
Hexes:
1: Replaced w/ Invoke Patron (Su)
2: Evil Eye
4: Replaced w/ Cold Flesh (Ex)
7: Slumber Hex
9: Replaced w/ Invoke Patron (Su)
11: Replaced w/ Second Invocation (Su)
13: Ice Tomb
15: Numbing Chill (Su)
17: Replaced w/ Invoke Patron (Su)
Items:
Cackling Hag's Blouse- 6,000gp (Gives the Cackle Hex)
Broom of Flying- 9/hours of Flight- 17,000gp
Headband of Vast Intelligence +6- 36,000gp (Skills: UMD, +2 more)
Cloak of Resistance +5 - 25,000gp
Boots of Teleport- 49,500
Handy Haversack- 2,000gp
Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone- 30,000gp
Luckstone- 20,000gp
Wayfinder + Clear Spindal Ioun Stone- 4,500
Lesser Rod of Extend- 3,000
Permanency Arcane Sight- 8,625 (includes permanency Scroll cost)
10 Liquid Ice- 40gp each 400gp total
37,975gp Left to spend
The point of this build is being able to keep people Locked up. You have the Infinite Hexes of Slumber and Ice Tomb that can keep people out a fight.
Your main trick is Snowball. With Spell perfection you can launch up to 2 Snowballs a round. Quicken, Empower, Intensified, Rime Snowball as a swift action is BRUTAL. That is (10d6 x 1.5)+ 30 (Average 82.5 damage) tagged with the Entangled condition. Nice swift action right there. Your then can use your Standard to Hex or Cast another spell like say Cone of Cold Paired with a Liquid Ice for 15d6+ 60 (Average 112.5 damage). That can be 195 damage to a single target and 112 to everything around it. The Winter witch just blows through Frost Immunity doing Half damage. Unlike the typical Blaster wizard who rotates elements you just don't care and power through.
A big trick here is when fighting casters. If you win initiative then wait till they start casting and Unload one of those Entangling Snowballs into their face. Most likely they will lose the spell to Damage or the Entangled Condition. Rime is a Beautiful alternative to Dazing Spell for a frost specialist. It also keeps people from complaining how broken and Over powered Dazing Spell can be.
Lastly the other option that would be good with this group would be a Shaman. Hexes are amazing resources and the Shaman can provide the status removal and Healing if the paladin can not. But this puts you more into the Support category where the group then pretty much demands certain actions/playstyle out of you.
You can't go wrong with a Core Rulebook wizard. High Intelligence, moderate Dex and Con. Pick a school that catches your interest. Make sure you have your bread and butter spells (detect magic, invisibility, dispel magic, stoneskin, true seeing, teleport without error, mind blank, etc.). Max out Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana). Add familiar if desired. One book. No muss, no fuss. Oh, if you like summoning, it's handy to know their languages.
Actually, I'd recommend giving the Arcanist a look. It casts wizard spells, but the Arcanist's casting mechanic is fairly similar to the 5e wizard's.
If the group is asking for an Arcane Caster, I wouldn't go with a Bard.
It isn't a matter of how powerful a bard is or is not. It is a matter of meeting expectations. It really doesn't look like the group needs much buffing, so I would focus on battlefield control. Create Pit, Wall of Fire, Black Tentacles, and all the other wonderful wizard spells that change the battlefield in your favor.
The idea of taking an Arcanist from Advanced Class Guide is a good thing to consider. That way it is a prepared caster -- selection only limited by the spell book -- while having the flexibility of not having to pick exactly how many of each spell to prepare. Just pick the right spells. Although they have less spells per day, you are never stuck thinking "If only I had prepared one more ____" in the middle of battle.
Why don't you make a list of what you would consider your main "go to" spells? Once you have a better handle on what spells you are casting, we can figure out exactly what sort of caster (including archetypes) might work best.
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Here are several 15th-level, 25-point buy characters (who spent 240,000gp) from my Crazy Character Emporium. Perhaps they will serve to inspire you or otherwise get you going. Feel free to use them as is, or modify them to taste too!
Angol Ceredir, elven archmage with an intelligent shield guardian companion
Batta Wrang, half elf summoner with sky dragon companion
Blind Ganji, human monk with incredible senses of perception and a potent telekinetic weapon
Corral Styne, elven magister and mage bent on avenging her husband's death against orc-kind
Dayer Wrann, human master archer rumored to have never missed his mark
Deacon Wrann, human trick archer with a variety of custom arrows
Durin Wrang, mysterious half elf summoner who rides about upon a slithering chameleon mutant
Galanost Laetalal, a burn-scarred Elven war mage as old as he is knowledgeable in the tactics of war
Gilgeam Grayhem, human mercenary and mage killer known for his habit of ending encounters quickly
Helegur, aasimar ice witch who utilizes troll simulacrum servants and a flying crystal fortress
Kharzod d'Kunderak, dwarven vault honor guard and paladin
Kirom Lancaster, a master elven fencer rumored to have never been bled by a foe's blade.
Roshgog, prideful half-orc fire mage who enjoys killing enemies with his bare claws as much as he does with arcane fire
She'er Falen, a beautiful ifrit arcanist whose form is as seductive as her fire is deadly
Sienna Hensworth, a world worn sky witch and master of storm
Sloy Garack, a tengu high pontiff possessing the eyes and ears of the gods
Wan Shi Tong, a giant psychic owl whose mysticism allows for the ready control of others minds as easily as it does reality itself
Yiankun Lee, a petite halfling girl whose slight form belies terrible control over earthly power
If any of these concepts appeal to you, I'd be happy to further elaborate on how they work. If none are to your taste, however, never fear! There are far more characters in my gallery than these, spanning nearly all levels, races, and classes, but I made a point to omit those that didn't fit your criteria and that would likely conflict with having a paladin in the party. If you wish to see 100+ other ideas, look no further.
You can't go wrong with a Core Rulebook wizard. High Intelligence, moderate Dex and Con. Pick a school that catches your interest. Make sure you have your bread and butter spells (detect magic, invisibility, dispel magic, stoneskin, true seeing, teleport without error, mind blank, etc.). Max out Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana). Add familiar if desired. One book. No muss, no fuss. Oh, if you like summoning, it's handy to know their languages.
Yeah you can. Pick the wrong spells, use them in the wrong way or the wrong time, and the experienced players will resent you.
But with buffing like a bard- " Everyone will love you. "
If the group is asking for an Arcane Caster, I wouldn't go with a Bard.
It isn't a matter of how powerful a bard is or is not. It is a matter of meeting expectations. It really doesn't look like the group needs much buffing, so I would focus on battlefield control. Create Pit, Wall of Fire, Black Tentacles, and all the other wonderful wizard spells that change the battlefield in your favor.
They are not. "they hope to find a caster". Not a arcane caster. They already have one, a witch.
The rules for Arcanist give me a headache.
The rules for Arcanist give me a headache.
Why's that? You select your spells for the day from your spellbook, then you cast those spells willy nilly until you run out of your daily allotment.
Not terribly difficult at all.
...Or was it something else?
The rules for Arcanist give me a headache.
Why's that? You select your spells for the day from your spellbook, then you cast those spells willy nilly until you run out of your daily allotment.
Not terribly difficult at all.
...Or was it something else?
Arcane Reservoir, not to mention cruddy skillpoints.
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Arcane Reservoir is a new concept for someone getting back into things, but in the grand scale it's pretty straightforward (You get X points, you spend them on the discoveries you have to do cool things like jack up spell DCs). But when you're first digging through it with nothing to model the new abilities after, it's a wall of text and garble. I'd disagree with the skillpoint thing though, being an INT castor they get as much as a rogue who dumped their INT a little, which isn't uncommon.
That said, I wouldn't ask someone diving back into the game to jump on the class. Bard is perfect in my opinion as it's a classic role/class that most people are going to know. Oracle would also be a great support class, but isn't going to be as familiar when you have to deal with all the mysteries, spell swaps, lack of domains, and curses for the first time. Not a huge challenge, but with all the kick-ass of their party they should be chewing through most encounters in ~5 rounds, which is usually going to be very survivable. Also, as a bard, you can UMD the crap out of scrolls in-case someone bites it.
Arcane Reservoir is a new concept for someone getting back into things, but in the grand scale it's pretty straightforward (You get X points, you spend them on the discoveries you have to do cool things like jack up spell DCs).
Which is the exact same mechanic over half of the classes in the game use since the original Core Rulebook with the monk's ki points.
What could possible be so headache inducing about that?
(Totally right on the skill points though, but hey, at least you have high intelligence, right?)
They are not. "they hope to find a caster". Not a arcane caster. They already have one, a witch.If the group is asking for an Arcane Caster, I wouldn't go with a Bard.
It isn't a matter of how powerful a bard is or is not. It is a matter of meeting expectations. It really doesn't look like the group needs much buffing, so I would focus on battlefield control. Create Pit, Wall of Fire, Black Tentacles, and all the other wonderful wizard spells that change the battlefield in your favor.
Rereading the original post, you are correct. She jumped to Wizard, but that wasn't the request.
They still don't appear to have a lot of battlefield control.
The Witch can presumably debuff via hexes, not sure how well that works with Arcane Archer though. They can't fire a hex through an arrow.
Bloodrager gives a little magical power, but no strong battlefield control.
Together the Witch and the Paladin can handle much of the condition removal. Once again, no battlefield control.
Bard would buff what is already likely to be a fairly strong beat-stick party.
I think that a class using the sorcerer/wizard spell list would do more to fill in the gaps than other options. For some people, that means Sorcerer while others prefer Wizard. I find the arcanist works mostly like a wizard without the issues of having to choose how many of each spell.
The original poster will need to pick which they are most comfortable playing and focus on that.
Although no where near the power or level given, you may find it useful to look at the PFS pregenerated characters. Although certainly not the most powerful examples of any class, they do give a reasonable baseline for what sort of equipment to look at and things.
Pick a class.
Pick some spells that you think will be your "go to" spells -- the ones you expect to be using.
Come back and we can help you refine what you give us and help explain some of the things that can be done to best use whatever class you chose.
bookwormbabe I have been there.
With me it was trying to play 3.5 when I hadn't played DnD for decades. It is so complex and when you ask for advice you get masses in different directions.
When I did it it was verbal advice and everyone talked at once. Could not follow a word.
Fruian Thistlefoot offers what looks like a very good Winter Witch build. Select that or another build that appeals, then just fill out the details for your character. In Fruian's case you just need spells and any changes to the character you want to make it you.
Well, that is what I would do.
Hey all, original poster back again!
I apologize for the delay. My PC restarted and I couldn't find the thread again lol.
To update, I went to the DM with a few ideas from this thread, and with his not-so-subtle encouragement I went with Arcanist, an Occultist to be precise. It's been a slow start, and our first encounter (5 PC's vs 20 something Frost giants) was nearly a TPK with thier spellcasters hit us with a 'hold monster' type spell and paralyzed half the team. Still, I am happy to say I was a good support person, using dispel magic to get the party moving, and used my occultist powers to summon some Lilends (I think it's how they are spelled) to give out healing and bard songs (the DM was happy I was reading all of the powers and found these on my own). There were a few of the 'did you prepare X?" questions, but nothing mean spirited or anything. It was a crazy encounter, and I gained level 16 at the end of the first session (I started lower lever than the rest of the group being the newbie, me being 15 to their 17).
I can post my spells/feats/etc here if there's an interest, but I feel this board probably gets enough of that lol.
Anywho, one follow up I did have is on skills. After said first fight, I gained +1 INT from level up, a +5 INT tome, and +6 INT headband (with points being flexible says DM). With those items, I have a 36 INT already, which seems crazy. That's a LOT of skill points. 240 according to the automatic sheet we're using. Might I ask for some ideas of how to spread this around? Most skills seem to have an upper DC limit, and unless I'm crazy I can hit a lot of them with this many skill points. I put something like 2 checks into Knowledge Nobility, and I have a +20 to that skill already, for example. That sees more than enough. I can put in max ranks to perception and diplomacy and half a dozen more at least. How would the board suggest spreading these points out?
Heh. I do like OoTS. Though to be fair, this game I joined has been running for over 2 years before I came aboard, and they help run a frontier outpost for their kingdom (all of them having rank/authority, etc). Giants have been an issue there for a while, and apparently while the group was out stopping a dragon problem, the ice giants came in to negotiate a deal while our high level leadership was away. The 'idiot noble' type of character agreed to horrible terms, and we were sent in to fix the problem. What started out as a negotiation went south when the Paladin loudly declared the evil beings should just be killed. To the Frost giant king's face. That didn't go over well, you know?
I have skills ranks in every skill at this point. On knowledge skills, I am maxing Arcana to identify spells and such, with enough checks in the others to have +20 to all knowledge skills. I could pump them up more, but it's starting to feel like overkill, if that makes sense.
Heh. I do like OoTS. Though to be fair, this game I joined has been running for over 2 years before I came aboard, and they help run a frontier outpost for their kingdom (all of them having rank/authority, etc). Giants have been an issue there for a while, and apparently while the group was out stopping a dragon problem, the ice giants came in to negotiate a deal while our high level leadership was away. The 'idiot noble' type of character agreed to horrible terms, and we were sent in to fix the problem. What started out as a negotiation went south when the Paladin loudly declared the evil beings should just be killed. To the Frost giant king's face. That didn't go over well, you know?
I have skills ranks in every skill at this point. On knowledge skills, I am maxing Arcana to identify spells and such, with enough checks in the others to have +20 to all knowledge skills. I could pump them up more, but it's starting to feel like overkill, if that makes sense.
Jeez, he/she is really giving the "Moderate Paladins for a Better Golarion" movement a bad name there!
It was the paladin that ultimately caused so much sea and destruction? Who would have guessed?
Glad to hear that you seem to be having a good time.