On the Nature of Permanency


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

So, recently a condition of Permanency stood out at me, and I'm trying to determine if, by RAW, there is a way to circumvent it. According to Permanency, you must be a minimum caster level in order to make certain spells Permanent. Let us us Enlarge Person as an example, which requires one to be CL 9.

Say, for example, I was a Barbarian or something who is currently level 6. Then, let us say for the sake of argument that I wanted to be Large size. According to what I've read, the use of a Scroll of Permanency created by a 9th level caster (the minimum required level to make Enlarge Person) permanent is a DC 29 Use Magic Device check. Then, assuming I got someone to cast Enlarge Person on me, could I then use that scroll, assuming I succeed on my UMD check, even though I'm not level 9? (assuming I've paid the necessary 2,500 gp. extra diamond dust in addition to the scroll's price). Or is the minimum caster level of the spell in reference to the person "casting" the spell (i.e. the user of the scroll), and would therefore be impossible even with a successful UMD check?

In other words, can a character use UMD and a scroll made by a 9th level wizard make a spell permanent even though they themselves are not the minimum caster level for it?


You need to be an arcane caster to use an arcane scroll.


Yes. That's why scrolls with a higher caster level cost more. The caster level is inherent to the scroll itself, not hte person casting from the scroll.


Tyinyk wrote:
You need to be an arcane caster to use an arcane scroll.

No, you just need to succeed a Use Magic Device check with a DC of 20+ the scroll's caster level. You can cast automatically (no UMD roll) if the spell is on your spell list (even if it's technically a different "type" - a Witch can cast a Cure Light Wounds spell from a scroll made by a Cleric, for example)


Yes. With the right items and UMD rolls you can achieve permanency effects.


However, getting someone else to enlarge you won't work.

Permanency wrote:
This spell makes the duration of certain other spells permanent. You first cast the desired spell and then follow it with the permanency spell.

So you need a scroll of enlarge person too. The good news is it can be CL 1, so it's cheap and easy to UMD.


Things to think about:

Scroll of a 5th level spell costs 1,125gp
Spell-casting services 10gp x CL (9) x spell level (5) = 450gp

Assuming you can find someone to cast it for you, it's significantly cheaper to do so and has no chance of failure.

Also, you're at risk. Assuming an enemy at some point detects your enlargement (Large human/elf/dwarf/whatever is a big giveaway), they could use dispel magic on you. At your current level, CL7 bad guys aren't unreasonable. They'd only need to roll a 13 to make your investment... gone.


Anguish wrote:

Things to think about:

Scroll of a 5th level spell costs 1,125gp
Spell-casting services 10gp x CL (9) x spell level (5) = 450gp

Assuming you can find someone to cast it for you, it's significantly cheaper to do so and has no chance of failure.

Also, you're at risk. Assuming an enemy at some point detects your enlargement (Large human/elf/dwarf/whatever is a big giveaway), they could use dispel magic on you. At your current level, CL7 bad guys aren't unreasonable. They'd only need to roll a 13 to make your investment... gone.

Usually, scroll costs include material component costs. This means you would need a CL 9 scroll priced specifically for Enlarge Person.


The bad news is, Dispel Magic and/or Reduce Person can really ruin your day. So you need to ask yourself: how mean/ruthless is your DM?

But yeah, as others have said, I understand that you can pull off permanency on yourself through the use of two scrolls and appropriate UMD checks. However, if you can find a caster who can cast both spells, you could alternatively ask/pay for them to cast it on you, as Enlarge Person falls under the "Target: Self, Others or Objects" section of Permanency.


If you do it with scrolls, which scroll's caster level is the relevant one for someone using dispel magic on you?


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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
If you do it with scrolls, which scroll's caster level is the relevant one for someone using dispel magic on you?

Either or both, actually.

Enlarge Person has a duration of 1 minute per level increased to permanent by the Permanency cast.

Permanency, however, also has a duration (of permanent), meaning it leaves behind a spell effect that can be dispelled.

So the Enlarge Person, if dispelled, will remove the whole thing, the Permanency too on account of it being dependant on the spell effect that just got dispelled.

Meanwhile, if the Permanency gets dispelled, Enlarge Person reverts to its old limited duration, which is likely to be one minute per caster level, minus two rounds. At this point, if Permanency isn't cast again, the Enlarge Person will eventually wear off. (Though likely too late to help the dispeller.)


While that's clever I think "this spell makes the duration of certain other spells permanent" is meant to merge with and subsume the underlying spell, not give you two separate effects.

You also have:

Quote:
You can make the following spells permanent in regard to yourself. You cannot cast these spells on other creatures. This application of permanency can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell.

There wouldn't be much point in making these spells immune to lower level CL attempts if the underlying spell was still vulnerable.


I wish they'd made it instantaneous so that would be 100% clear.

Given PP's interpretation, do you think "caster of higher level when you cast the spell" refers to the permanency or its target? I'm thinking the former, which makes the CL 20 scroll a lot more expensive than the latter often would.


I agree. If Permanency had a duration of instantaneous, things would have been much clearer. It would give the impression of "changes the duration of Enlarge Person from '1 min/level' to 'permanent'" as a one shot, non-continuing effect. Then it's clear that only the Enlarge is there to be dispelled.

But by having a duration of permanent, it more or less says that Permanency, by itself, sticks around as a spell, and thus implies that removing it removes its effect. And that seems undesirable.


The Sideromancer wrote:
Usually, scroll costs include material component costs. This means you would need a CL 9 scroll priced specifically for Enlarge Person.

Actually, that's a good point, but a wash. What I mean is that the casting is an extra 2,500gp above the quoted figures no matter if it's done via a scroll or done by hiring a caster.

But it certainly reinforces that you're one dispel magic away from losing nearly 4k worth of wealth.


If your GM allows for custom magic items An item of continuous Enlarge Person would cost 4000 GP if made into a slotted item, 6000GP if stacked with an existing slotted item and 8000 GP if slotless. If you have a crafter in the party, these costs would be halved. Given the risk of having Permanency dispelled and that you may not want to be large all the time, this could be a better option.

Silver Crusade

Gallant Armor wrote:
If you GM allows for custom magic items An item of continuous Enlarge Person would cost 4000 GP if made into a slotted item, 6000GP if stacked with an existing slotted item and 8000 GP if slotless. If you have a crafter in the party, these costs would be halved. Given the risk of having Permanency dispelled and that you may not want to be large all the time, this could be a better option.

And those prices wouldn't fly since they ignore the "compare to similar magic items and effects" rule.


Rysky wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
If you GM allows for custom magic items An item of continuous Enlarge Person would cost 4000 GP if made into a slotted item, 6000GP if stacked with an existing slotted item and 8000 GP if slotless. If you have a crafter in the party, these costs would be halved. Given the risk of having Permanency dispelled and that you may not want to be large all the time, this could be a better option.
And those prices wouldn't fly since they ignore the "compare to similar magic items and effects" rule.

What other items/effects did you have in mind?

Silver Crusade

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
If you GM allows for custom magic items An item of continuous Enlarge Person would cost 4000 GP if made into a slotted item, 6000GP if stacked with an existing slotted item and 8000 GP if slotless. If you have a crafter in the party, these costs would be halved. Given the risk of having Permanency dispelled and that you may not want to be large all the time, this could be a better option.
And those prices wouldn't fly since they ignore the "compare to similar magic items and effects" rule.
What other items/effects did you have in mind?

Hmm, good point.

(This is why I should stay out of Rules forums so early in the morning >_<)

Probably not one, I just know constant spells-in-a-can for cheap are frowned upon.


Rysky wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
If you GM allows for custom magic items An item of continuous Enlarge Person would cost 4000 GP if made into a slotted item, 6000GP if stacked with an existing slotted item and 8000 GP if slotless. If you have a crafter in the party, these costs would be halved. Given the risk of having Permanency dispelled and that you may not want to be large all the time, this could be a better option.
And those prices wouldn't fly since they ignore the "compare to similar magic items and effects" rule.

I couldn't find any when I searched, what similar item(s) are you referring to?


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
If you GM allows for custom magic items An item of continuous Enlarge Person would cost 4000 GP if made into a slotted item, 6000GP if stacked with an existing slotted item and 8000 GP if slotless. If you have a crafter in the party, these costs would be halved. Given the risk of having Permanency dispelled and that you may not want to be large all the time, this could be a better option.
And those prices wouldn't fly since they ignore the "compare to similar magic items and effects" rule.
What other items/effects did you have in mind?

I think this is one of the few ways to get consistent embiggening, and it's had a bunch of minor riders added to inflate the price. Other enlarge effects for PCs can be priced really high, and have minor riders tacked on, although Cloak of the Hedge Wizard does give it for one minute with some other perks at the low price of 2,500 gp.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

There was a thread a while ago where someone tried to price a constant enlarge person item. There was no real consensus IIRC. Suggestions varied from 4k gp, all the way up to like 35k. The big pricing issue is reach, and that's where a lot of the contention was.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
What other items/effects did you have in mind?
Gallant Armor wrote:
I couldn't find any when I searched, what similar item(s) are you referring to?

Well, enlarge person provides a +2 size bonus to Strength. Granting that continuously is pretty much the same as a belt of giant strength +2. The belt costs 4,000gp, so the item of continuous enlarge person should have a similar cost for the strength boost.

However, enlarge person provides a size bonus, while the belt of giant strength provides an enhancement bonus. That should include a cost increase, as the item of enlarge person would stack with anything that provided an enhancement bonus to strength, so it would be more beneficial because it is a size bonus. The item pricing table suggests a non-typical bonus type could increase the cost by +25% to +100% (for AC bonuses and save bonuses respectivly). That would make the strength boosting portion of a continuous enlarge person item cost between 5000gp and 8000gp.

Then you need to figure the cost for the other effects (increased reach, dexterity penalty, etc.).


Jeraa wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
What other items/effects did you have in mind?
Gallant Armor wrote:
I couldn't find any when I searched, what similar item(s) are you referring to?

Well, enlarge person provides a +2 size bonus to Strength. Granting that continuously is pretty much the same as a belt of giant strength +2. The belt costs 4,000gp, so the item of continuous enlarge person should have a similar cost for the strength boost.

However, enlarge person provides a size bonus, while the belt of giant strength provides an enhancement bonus. That should include a cost increase, as the item of enlarge person would stack with anything that provided an enhancement bonus to strength, so it would be more beneficial because it is a size bonus. The item pricing table suggests a non-typical bonus type could increase the cost by +25% to +100% (for AC bonuses and save bonuses respectivly). That would make the strength boosting portion of a continuous enlarge person item cost between 5000gp and 8000gp.

Then you need to figure the cost for the other effects (increased reach, dexterity penalty, etc.).

The enlarge person +2 strength bonus is partially negated by a -1 attack penalty leaving just the bonus to damage, making it worse then a belt of giant's strength in terms of strength bonus.

Belt Of Giant Strength: +1 to attack and damage
Enlarge Person: +0 to attack, +1 to damage, -2 to AC, improved damage dice and reach

The -2 to AC cancels out quite a bit as that is worth at least 8000 GP.

The damage dice benefit varies by weapon, but a +3 to average damage is a decent estimate.

Reach is the real draw, I could see a total 1.5x value given how useful that is, even with the other benefits and penalties.

Liberty's Edge

Rysky wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
If you GM allows for custom magic items An item of continuous Enlarge Person would cost 4000 GP if made into a slotted item, 6000GP if stacked with an existing slotted item and 8000 GP if slotless. If you have a crafter in the party, these costs would be halved. Given the risk of having Permanency dispelled and that you may not want to be large all the time, this could be a better option.
And those prices wouldn't fly since they ignore the "compare to similar magic items and effects" rule.
What other items/effects did you have in mind?

Hmm, good point.

(This is why I should stay out of Rules forums so early in the morning >_<)

Probably not one, I just know constant spells-in-a-can for cheap are frowned upon.

For starter, items that give a+2 to strength that is commutable with enhancements to it.

Juggernaut’s PauldronsPRPR allow you to become large a undetermined number of times in a day and give you several otehr benefits. 40.000 gp

Drinking Horn of Bottomless Valor: enlarge+heroism for 10 minutes once day, 24.000 gp

From those precedents the price for an item enlarging you an unlimited number of times in a day seem to be about 20.000 gp.

Note that it is way better to be able to enlarge x times in a day that to be permanently enlarged. If you are permanently enlarged you need to buy a new set of armor and weapons sized for your new form (or never put down/remove those you had when you were enlarged). As your PC is a creature on paper probably you don't care, but it would generate a lot of trouble in your character life. Every door in human settlement is too low, every bed too short and your love life would be full of problems, unless you start dating a giantess.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
If you GM allows for custom magic items An item of continuous Enlarge Person would cost 4000 GP if made into a slotted item, 6000GP if stacked with an existing slotted item and 8000 GP if slotless. If you have a crafter in the party, these costs would be halved. Given the risk of having Permanency dispelled and that you may not want to be large all the time, this could be a better option.
And those prices wouldn't fly since they ignore the "compare to similar magic items and effects" rule.
What other items/effects did you have in mind?

Hmm, good point.

(This is why I should stay out of Rules forums so early in the morning >_<)

Probably not one, I just know constant spells-in-a-can for cheap are frowned upon.

For starter, items that give a+2 to strength that is commutable with enhancements to it.

Juggernaut’s PauldronsPRPR allow you to become large a undetermined number of times in a day and give you several otehr benefits. 40.000 gp

Drinking Horn of Bottomless Valor: enlarge+heroism for 10 minutes once day, 24.000 gp

From those precedents the price for an item enlarging you an unlimited number of times in a day seem to be about 20.000 gp.

Note that it is way better to be able to enlarge x times in a day that to be permanently enlarged. If you are permanently enlarged you need to buy a new set of armor and weapons sized for your new form (or never put down/remove those you had when you were enlarged). As your PC is a creature on paper probably you don't care, but it would generate a lot of trouble in your character life. Every door in human settlement is too low, every bed too short and your love life would be full of problems, unless you start dating a giantess.

Ok, Juggernaut’s Pauldrons have a continuous Enlarge person effect so we can work with that.

40,000 GP base price

Abilities:
Enlarge Person at will
4,000 GP (by formula)

Continuous +4 bonus on CMD, and ferocity ability
I have no idea how to price this, it certainly has value, but it's hard to put a price on it.

Deadly Juggernaut 3/day
18,000 GP (by formula)

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