Custom Two-Weapon Fighting Slayer


Homebrew and House Rules

Silver Crusade

My making of characters from my Hell's Rebels campaign continues! Now up, we have TWF slayer. (I know, I know. Zadim is also a TWF slayer. But Aurelia uses swords!) Since Aurelia's largely a combat monster, I had a difficult time thinking up interesting powers for her. I let her use armors to explore to signify her running headlong into rooms without checking for things like traps or monsters first. I also definitely borrowed heavily from other fight-y types. Given my friend's reaction to this character, I think I might have made her tooo good. Thoughts?

Aurelia

Female Human Slayer

Aurelia has one talent in life: killing monsters. She joined the city guard of Kintargo confident that her skill with her twin swords would make up for her inability to get along with people or follow orders. For the most part it has, but Aurelia’s learning that not all monsters have claws and fangs, and some even claim to be on her side.

SKILLS
Strength d10 □+1 □+2 □+3 □+4
-Melee: Strength +2
Dexterity d8 □+1 □+2 □+3
-Stealth: Dexterity +1
Constitution d8 □+1 □+2 □+3
-Fortitude: Constitution +1
Intelligence d6 □+1 □+2
-Knowledge: Intelligence +2
Wisdom d6 □+1 □+2
Charisma d4 □+1

POWERS
Hand Size 5 □6
Proficiency: Light armors Heavy armors Weapons
You may recharge a card that has the Sword trait and does not have the Two-handed trait to add 1d8 (□+1) and that card’s traits to a combat check by a character at your location (□or to reduce combat damage dealt to you by 2.)
After you defeat a monster, you may bury (□or discard) an armor to explore again.

CARDS LIST
Favored Card Type: Weapon
Weapon 6 □7 □8 □9
Spell -
Armor 3 □4 □5
Item 2 □3
Ally 1 □2 □3
Blessing 3 □4 □5

Role: Monster Hunter
The monster hunter is the thing the creatures in the darkness fear.

Hand Size 5 □ 6 □ 7
Proficiency: Light armors Heavy armors Weapons
You may recharge a card that has the Sword trait and does not have the Two-handed trait to add 1d8 (□+1)( □+2) and that card’s traits to a combat check by a character at your location (□or to reduce combat damage dealt to you by 2.) (□You may add another 1d8 and the Fire trait.)
After you defeat a monster, you may bury (□or discard) (□or recharge) an armor to explore again.
□When you would discard a card with the Sword trait for its power, you may recharge it instead.
□Add 2(□4) to your Combat check that invokes the Sword trait.
□When another character at your location encounters a monster, you may bury a card. That character evades the monster; you encounter it instead.

Role: City Guard
The city guard will do anything to protect the city, especially from itself.

Hand Size 5 □ 6 □ 7
Proficiency: Light armors Heavy armors Weapons
You may recharge a card that has the Sword trait and does not have the Two-handed trait to add 1d8 (□+1) and that card’s traits to a combat check by a character at your location (□or to reduce combat (□or any) damage dealt to you by 2.)
After you defeat a monster, you may bury (□or discard) an armor to explore again.
□You gain the skill Diplomacy: Strength +2.
□At the end of your turn, you may discard (□or recharge) an ally to recharge a random weapon from your discard pile.
□Add 2 (□4) to your check to close a location. (□If the location has no cards, add an additional 1d8.)


Hi,

Initial thoughts on the above are that automatic proficiency in Heavy Armor doesn't feel right - either it should be an upgrade or not their at all, can't explain why.

Next the first power should only be useable if you haven't already revealed a weapon with the two handed trait for your combat check, additionally if she is a genuine swordmaster and equally proficient with weapons in both hands it might be better to add the Strength die. Wording something like; When you reveal a weapon for your combat check without the 2-Handed trait, you may discard(□ recharge)another weapon with the Sword trait and without the 2-handed trait, to add your Strength die to your check. I know it sounds rather convoluted but unless she is dual wielding with bastard swords then it maybe needs adjusting.

I like the last power on the city guard role very much, fits with the role well but not sure about Diplomacy skill on Strength. Would recharging a weapon to add your Strength skill to your Charisma or Diplomacy check not be more appropriate.

Hope these comments are useful.

gk.

Silver Crusade

gavin kerr wrote:

Hi,

Initial thoughts on the above are that automatic proficiency in Heavy Armor doesn't feel right - either it should be an upgrade or not their at all, can't explain why.

Next the first power should only be useable if you haven't already revealed a weapon with the two handed trait for your combat check, additionally if she is a genuine swordmaster and equally proficient with weapons in both hands it might be better to add the Strength die. Wording something like; When you reveal a weapon for your combat check without the 2-Handed trait, you may discard(□ recharge)another weapon with the Sword trait and without the 2-handed trait, to add your Strength die to your check. I know it sounds rather convoluted but unless she is dual wielding with bastard swords then it maybe needs adjusting.

I like the last power on the city guard role very much, fits with the role well but not sure about Diplomacy skill on Strength. Would recharging a weapon to add your Strength skill to your Charisma or Diplomacy check not be more appropriate.

Hope these comments are useful.

gk.

This IS useful. I think you are right about heavy armor, so I've made that a feat. I also think recharging to add a strength die makes sense.

I considered making the TWF trait the way you suggested, but I was trying to avoid being unnecessarily convoluted. Zadim doesn't restrict the handedness of his original weapon, so I thought I'd follow suit here.

I can't take too much credit for the last power on the city guard role card; it's a modification of a power on Vika from the Figher class deck. It just seemed fitting for a city guard member. The Diplomacy based on Strength is similarly a role power that Imrijka can get that I assume was meant to simulate intimidating. I will rethink whether adding strength is better.


Hey, thanks for coming up with new characters!
I like both the base and the city guard conceptually. Apart from the base power (which I'll get back to later), they look solid and should play well.

I agree on the issues gavin raised, but also think you went overboard with the Monster Hunter. This character has a good hand size, has many means to cycle through his cards by recharging, can explore for a recharge and can obliterate enemies in combat, as well as manipulate the encounter of nearby characters.
Apart from spells, what can that role not do?

I also think the base power of 'dual wielding' is too strong. She can recharge a weapon to get a big boost on herself OR allies. That is both easier to pull of and more versatile than the power seltyiel gets (since he can only apply it to himself and needs two separate ressources, compared to one bigger ressource pool where any two cards work together here).
Think about it this way - just recharging a shortsword is better than any means of combat enhancements rangers or bards get or any support spells for a couple ADs and without any investment.

I'd suggest to scrap the ability to use it on someone elses combat check from the base and add it as an upgrade for the city guard, since it is more thematically fitting - the city guard gets to use the power to help someone else, while the monster hunter can make it stronger for himself.

Another suggestion would be to scrap the recharge for en extra explore and make the power of encountering monsters for other characters to be a discard.

I hope this does not come off as too negative, as I like the concepts behind the character. I'm sure that after one or two revisions, this character will be fine.

Silver Crusade

It's totally cool and not too negative. I was definitely less comfortable with this character than my investigators. I posted because I wanted advice.

I need to compare her powers to Zadim's powers; I was going for something like that, but since the character sheets haven't been released yet, I never have him in front of me when I'm working on this. I'll check him out, scale her down a bit, and repost.

Thanks for the feedback!


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I actually think you got the comparison to Zadim almost exactly right, except he starts at discard and needs a feat to recharge. In exchange, you further restrict to only swords, not any one-hander, which seems just about fine to me. I think the problem in the Selytiel comparison is actually Selytiel, who is probably one of the weakest characters in PACG history, and that needs to be taken into account.

As to the character, I think it's working great. I agree with others that Heavy Armor doesn't make sense and should be removed. You may actually consider completely removing it from the base card, and then have it be a City Guard unique perk. If the roles are as unbalanced as Doppel seems to fear, you may even given the proficiency to City Guard for free without a feat required. I'd definitely test the recharge power as that is on the top end of power level, though I don't think it's over the top. I think the armor to explore power is probably okay, since your character has very little exploration ability normally, you kind of need that power to keep up in larger group games.

If Doppel hadn't pointed it out, I wouldn't have noticed the level of power potential on the Monster Hunter role, but it does take a whole lot of feats to get there. I think it may end up more reasonable than he fears, but I'd definitely test something like a high-level S&S or Runelords scenario, with appropriate feats acquired, to see how strong it feels. Since you generally only get about 7 feats in an AP (Wrath being the exception, and even then I think it only gets to 8), there's a limit to how many of the power enhancing feats you can get, which might keep it under control. Also, she has no non-combat utility in that role, so she really has to be a combat monster to not be underpowered.

One comment I do have to make is that the added fire feat on your first power in Monster Hunter needs to change. The problem is that it's right after a replacement effect (the damage reduction) and therefore, by PACG implied structure, refers to that part of the power, even though it's clearly intended to apply to the first part of the power (the bonus to combat checks). I'd try to put that power feat earlier in the power. It would have the effect of not making the damage reduction feat required to get that feat, but I think that is more than acceptable for sensible parsing. See below:

You may recharge a card that has the Sword trait and does not have the Two-handed trait to add 1d8 (□+1)( □+2) and that card’s traits (□ and You may add another 1d8 and the Fire trait) to a combat check by a character at your location (□or to reduce combat damage dealt to you by 2.)

Overall, I think I'm a lot more positive on this character than most. She does differentiate herself from Zadim in a meaningful way, and is a character I'd be excited to try. I think it is important to be very cautious and put in playtests at multiple tiers of difficulty to make sure she doesn't spin out of control any more than normal. Also, just as some personal advice, if you aren't sure about a card, don't show it to someone you intend to give it to until you've shown it to an independent party like the forums. It always feels bad to the person getting it if they end up with a 'nerfed' (read: balanced) version, and it's probably for the best if they don't know what they were missing.

Silver Crusade

Thanks for all the feedback, isaic16 and everybody! Rebel Song and I have decided to turn our Mummy's Mask game, starting tomorrow, into a playtest of our characters. Rebel's making her own character, I'm playing Ollie, and our friend is playing Aurelia. (Don't worry---this isn't the friend who made RPG Aurelia, and I'll make sure she understands the potential issues of overpoweredness with the monster role.) I've tweaked Aurelia a bit based on comments here, and we'll see how it goes!


isaic16 wrote:
I actually think you got the comparison to Zadim almost exactly right, except he starts at discard and needs a feat to recharge. In exchange, you further restrict to only swords, not any one-hander, which seems just about fine to me. I think the problem in the Selytiel comparison is actually Selytiel, who is probably one of the weakest characters in PACG history, and that needs to be taken into account.

Oh, I didn't realize that Zadim actually could boost any character at his location with his power. While I read his base once on the blog, it will still take 2 weeks to get my base set, so I'm sorry for suggesting the nerf.

I'll take back my suggestion about restricting the power to himself on the base then, as that seems to be the baseline for slayers.
I still think the additional 1d8 and the fire damage should only apply to himself though, and I'm still wondering why they made the slayer so much better at supporting combat checks than rangers are by default...

It's interesting that you think that Seltyiel is a really bad character. I only played him in combat centric APs like RotR and WotR yet, but he works nicely there and I like him thematically. However, I can see that he may not have much appeal for APs that focus on skill checks like SnS and probably MM, but I still have to play both of them.

Note, however, that he can be played quite versatile by using mostly utility spells and just completely ignoring his power related to using both swords and spells. He still gets his intelligence boost on spells with the sword trait on his spellblade role, so his baseline is the same power of a fighter with the spellcasting of any arcane caster.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Doppelschwert wrote:
isaic16 wrote:
I actually think you got the comparison to Zadim almost exactly right, except he starts at discard and needs a feat to recharge. In exchange, you further restrict to only swords, not any one-hander, which seems just about fine to me. I think the problem in the Selytiel comparison is actually Selytiel, who is probably one of the weakest characters in PACG history, and that needs to be taken into account.

Oh, I didn't realize that Zadim actually could boost any character at his location with his power. While I read his base once on the blog, it will still take 2 weeks to get my base set, so I'm sorry for suggesting the nerf.

I'll take back my suggestion about restricting the power to himself on the base then, as that seems to be the baseline for slayers.
I still think the additional 1d8 and the fire damage should only apply to himself though, and I'm still wondering why they made the slayer so much better at supporting combat checks than rangers are by default...

It's interesting that you think that Seltyiel is a really bad character. I only played him in combat centric APs like RotR and WotR yet, but he works nicely there and I like him thematically. However, I can see that he may not have much appeal for APs that focus on skill checks like SnS and probably MM, but I still have to play both of them.

Note, however, that he can be played quite versatile by using mostly utility spells and just completely ignoring his power related to using both swords and spells. He still gets his intelligence boost on spells with the sword trait on his spellblade role, so his baseline is the same power of a fighter with the spellcasting of any arcane caster.

I fully admit that the dislike for Selytiel is probably largely related to the environment he first appeared in. We actually did the strategy you mentioned of just ignoring his first power and using utility spells. The problem there is that the Arcane utility spells in S&S were, by and large, TERRIBLE, especially compared to RotR. There was no augury or haste, scrying came very late, there weren't as many buffs, and most of them were worse, since checks were so much less predictable. Also, ignoring that first power effectively just makes him a substantially weaker Seelah or Oloch, since divine generally has better support spells, and their powers are actually useful. The real nail in Sely's coffin, again entirely due to the environment he was in, was his d4 Wisdom. Wisdom was almost a God-Stat in S&S, due to ships and survival checks being on the majority of barriers, plus Will saves being on many high level monsters. He was the only character in S&S with a d4 wisdom, and that just killed him.

All that being said, I think he's still too weak even in a better environment. He has very few cards which explore (blessings/allies), which means that in large groups he will end up with fewer combat checks than his comrades, since he just is going to kick down the fewest doors. In general, I feel his character creates the worst kind of tension. You have to either build him to support his powers, which makes him a combat monster, but his player will be sitting on his hands most of the game, or you can build him as a support character, which ends with him completely ignoring his most powerful ability just in order to actually do something.

Caveat: WotR actually works so much better for him due to one simple reason: Support spells with the attack trait. In S&S, there were exactly 0 of them. In RotR, you had clouds, which would have been amazing for him. Wrath had some of those plus Steal Soul, which is just an amazing card. I still don't think they're enough to make him a character I have any interest in (he remains a liability in large groups), but I can see why someone would like him in that environment.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

isaic16 wrote:
Doppelschwert wrote:
isaic16 wrote:
I actually think you got the comparison to Zadim almost exactly right, except he starts at discard and needs a feat to recharge. In exchange, you further restrict to only swords, not any one-hander, which seems just about fine to me. I think the problem in the Selytiel comparison is actually Selytiel, who is probably one of the weakest characters in PACG history, and that needs to be taken into account.

Oh, I didn't realize that Zadim actually could boost any character at his location with his power. While I read his base once on the blog, it will still take 2 weeks to get my base set, so I'm sorry for suggesting the nerf.

I'll take back my suggestion about restricting the power to himself on the base then, as that seems to be the baseline for slayers.
I still think the additional 1d8 and the fire damage should only apply to himself though, and I'm still wondering why they made the slayer so much better at supporting combat checks than rangers are by default...

It's interesting that you think that Seltyiel is a really bad character. I only played him in combat centric APs like RotR and WotR yet, but he works nicely there and I like him thematically. However, I can see that he may not have much appeal for APs that focus on skill checks like SnS and probably MM, but I still have to play both of them.

Note, however, that he can be played quite versatile by using mostly utility spells and just completely ignoring his power related to using both swords and spells. He still gets his intelligence boost on spells with the sword trait on his spellblade role, so his baseline is the same power of a fighter with the spellcasting of any arcane caster.

I fully admit that the dislike for Selytiel is probably largely related to the environment he first appeared in. We actually did the strategy you mentioned of just ignoring his first power and using utility spells. The problem there is that the Arcane utility spells in S&S were, by and large,...

I think a lot of your issues with him were specific to playing him in a large group, which I probably would advise against. Seltyiel shines in groups of 1-3 characters, IMHO. :)


Eliandra Giltessan wrote:
Rebel Song and I have decided to turn our Mummy's Mask game, starting tomorrow, into a playtest of our characters. Rebel's making her own character, I'm playing Ollie, and our friend is playing Aurelia.

I'm playing a tomb raider. *wink wink nudge nudge* ;-D


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Rebel Song wrote:
Eliandra Giltessan wrote:
Rebel Song and I have decided to turn our Mummy's Mask game, starting tomorrow, into a playtest of our characters. Rebel's making her own character, I'm playing Ollie, and our friend is playing Aurelia.
I'm playing a tomb raider. *wink wink nudge nudge* ;-D

Watch out, they may try to reboot your character in a few adventures.

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