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First off, I find the class skill lists of each class very disappointing, even annoying. Now how skills were consolidated I don't hold issue with, except the removal of Appraise, Craft, and Profession as skills which could have been Consolidated into a Trade skill, it is how things are divided out to different classes.
First off, I am of the idea that any class with Knowledge (all) and Linguistics should be allowed to treat Nature, Religion, Society, and Spellcraft as class skills. Also, most classes would get Athletics.
Essentially my criticism is that while consolidating skills is fine, classes should not be denied the skills that they otherwise had access to. No class should have only two class skills and the more highly skilled classes should be allowed their full versatility.
For example, the only one of the Knowledge (all) classes to also have Handle Animal, the Skald should have as class skills the following: Acrobatics, Athletics, Influence, Nature, Religion, Perception, Performance, Society, Spellcraft, and Trade.
Why, because that is what you would pretty much get if you actually simply consolidated the skills.
Martials I feel actually suffer just as badly, if not even worse, for how consolidated skills work. The Fighter, barbarian, and paladin... none of these classes should have only two class skills nor only 1+ 1/2 Int because none of these classes have much reason to even have Intelligence be very high. Meaning at best, not counting Human bonus skills, these classes would likely have maybe 2 skill points per level to use.
Am I missing something?
The skill hate is still something I don't understand. Starting in 4th/PF it seems like people don't want to be bothered with rolling so many different times in one scenario. I'm a huge advocate for more skills and more logical skills. Lumping more than one kind of activity onto one skill seems cheap (stealth or perception example)
I think Jonathan is talking about the unchained rules, but I do agree that perception and stealth should have stayed separate when they moved the normal skills over to Pathfinder.
You're saying you'd rather have the obnoxious splits of Spot, Search, and Listen and Hide and Move Silently? Those were some of the best decisions they made with skills in the transition from 3.5 to PF.
As much as this doesn't help directly, I found background skills to be the far preferable sub-system. Maybe give it a whirl?
You're saying you'd rather have the obnoxious splits of Spot, Search, and Listen and Hide and Move Silently? Those were some of the best decisions they made with skills in the transition from 3.5 to PF.
I think spot and search could go into one skill, but the others are better off separated.
As an example a person who is invisible but in the same room is more difficult to notice than someone behind a brick wall and outside of the room.
You can't see either one of them, but the person outside the room is easier to find even though the brick/stone wall will block any noise being made.
As much as this doesn't help directly, I found background skills to be the far preferable sub-system. Maybe give it a whirl?
I used those. They are nice.
As much as this doesn't help directly, I found background skills to be the far preferable sub-system. Maybe give it a whirl?
LOVE the Backgrounds Skill Sub System. I don't foresee running a home game without it in all future games. My players were kinda "meh" about it at first but quickly realized how much it added.
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You're saying you'd rather have the obnoxious splits of Spot, Search, and Listen and Hide and Move Silently? Those were some of the best decisions they made with skills in the transition from 3.5 to PF.I think spot and search could go into one skill, but the others are better off separated.
As an example a person who is invisible but in the same room is more difficult to notice than someone behind a brick wall and outside of the room.
You can't see either one of them, but the person outside the room is easier to find even though the brick/stone wall will block any noise being made.
Perception encompasses all senses, and many things make a distinction between senses.
You cannot see someone on the other side of a brick wall, so logically they should be definitively invisible. If this is not the case, it should probably have an FAQ.
Consolidated Skills failed the Inquisitor, who has no Knowledges as class skills in that system.
You're saying you'd rather have the obnoxious splits of Spot, Search, and Listen and Hide and Move Silently? Those were some of the best decisions they made with skills in the transition from 3.5 to PF.I think spot and search could go into one skill, but the others are better off separated.
As an example a person who is invisible but in the same room is more difficult to notice than someone behind a brick wall and outside of the room.
You can't see either one of them, but the person outside the room is easier to find even though the brick/stone wall will block any noise being made.
Perception encompasses all senses, and many things make a distinction between senses.
You cannot see someone on the other side of a brick wall, so logically they should be definitively invisible. If this is not the case, it should probably have an FAQ.
The rules specifically give you a higher penalty to your perception check for being invisible than they do for being on the other side of a door or wall.
From the PRDPerception Modifier..........| DC Modifier
Through a wall............|+10/foot of thickness
Creature or object is invisible| +20
For 3.5 you had a penalty to your listen check for someone on the other side of the wall or door. Invisibility gave a penalty to your spot check or a bonus to your hide check depending on how you looked at, but the math worked out the same way.
edit: Being invisible(a game condition) is not the same as "not having line of sight", which is what I think you are referring to with regard to someone on the other side of the wall.
You're saying you'd rather have the obnoxious splits of Spot, Search, and Listen and Hide and Move Silently? Those were some of the best decisions they made with skills in the transition from 3.5 to PF.I think spot and search could go into one skill, but the others are better off separated.
As an example a person who is invisible but in the same room is more difficult to notice than someone behind a brick wall and outside of the room.
You can't see either one of them, but the person outside the room is easier to find even though the brick/stone wall will block any noise being made.
Perception encompasses all senses, and many things make a distinction between senses.
You cannot see someone on the other side of a brick wall, so logically they should be definitively invisible. If this is not the case, it should probably have an FAQ.The rules specifically give you a higher penalty to your perception check for being invisible than they do for being on the other side of a door or wall.
From the PRD
Perception Modifier..........| DC Modifier
Through a wall............|+10/foot of thickness
Creature or object is invisible| +20For 3.5 you had a penalty to your listen check for someone on the other side of the wall or door. Invisibility gave a penalty to your spot check or a bonus to your hide check depending on how you looked at, but the math worked out the same way.
edit: Being invisible(a game condition) is not the same as "not having line of sight", which is what I think you are referring to with regard to someone on the other side of the wall.
True, though I think this is a quirk of invisibility rather than of Perception. Could also be a side-effect of magical invisibility if we're trying to rationalize it.
I think it was an oversight. I say that because the invisibility section says that invisibility does not stop detection by sound.
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Consolidated Skills failed the Inquisitor, who has no Knowledges as class skills in that system.
Yes, which is definitely annoying. At the very least they should have gotten Religion, since they have both Knowledge (religion) and Knowledge (planes). Though of note they do have Spellcraft, which has Knowledge (arcane).
Again, if one were to simply consolidate this is more in line with what the Inquisitor should have: Influence, Perception, Religion, Spellcraft, Stealth, Survival. I would even argue Athletics and perhaps Nature.
As much as this doesn't help directly, I found background skills to be the far preferable sub-system. Maybe give it a whirl?
I actually believe Background Skills is much better thought out and preferred myself.