Bow using Rogue / Sneak using Ranger?


Advice


Hey guys,

I'm a relatively new player. I've only played one campaign before by using the custom fighter, Valeros.

My group and I just decided to start off a new campaign.
I've been thinking of the character I want to play for a while. I found that while Valeros was great in combat, he was a bit boring to play outside of battle as he didn't have much to do other than smash stuff, so I want something that although useful in combat, has more out of combat utilities, he would be a Rogue, yet I want to very much hide the fact that he is a rogue and act more as a sophisticated and charismatic/cheeky man. He'll probably carry a Rapier or that two handed Elven Dex based sword but I want his combat to be focused on using a Bow.
The campaign is one where the DM has specifically said Min maxing won't be necessary and we should just play characters we enjoy playing.

I wanted to start as a Rogue and just give him a bow since he'll have high Dex anyway.

However, I was wondering if one of the advanced classes already did this. I've read through a few and can't really see something that specific.

Any suggestions on some of the advanced classes that would work better than just using a Bow wielding rogue?

Thanks!


Take a look at the Slayer hybrid class. It mixes both the Rogue and the Ranger into one cool class.

Sneak Attacks, full BAB progression and Rogue Talents/Ranger Combat Styles.

Much less squishy than the rogue, while still getting a lot of skill points per level. You can take Accomplished Sneak Attack to up the Sneak Attack dies.

The Slayer also has an archetype that might help you fill the charismatic vibe you're going for. Check out the Veiled Blade archetype.


Orodhen wrote:

Take a look at the Slayer hybrid class. It mixes both the Rogue and the Ranger into one cool class.

Sneak Attacks, full BAB progression and Rogue Talents/Ranger Combat Styles.

Much less squishy than the rogue, while still getting a lot of skill points per level. You can take Accomplished Sneak Attack to up the Sneak Attack dies.

The Slayer also has an archetype that might help you fill the charismatic vibe you're going for. Check out the Veiled Blade archetype.

Thanks. I saw the Slayer today for the first time.

Isn't he more of like a hunter/tracker though?

I guess I could play him however I wanted as long as I get the skills I'd like.

Can he use bows efficiently?

Thanks again!


The fluff pegs Slayer's as hunters in the sense of hunting and felling people :P But fluff is fluff, and is only there for fun.

He can use bows just as well as any Ranger, since he can pick up the Ranger Style feats.

Couple that with the Studied Target ability and you have a very dangerous fellow on your hands ;)

Scarab Sages

You should also look into the ranged feint feat from Ultimate Intrigue. It's vital if you want to use ranged sneak attacks without relying on invisibility.


Imbicatus wrote:
You should also look into the ranged feint feat from Ultimate Intrigue. It's vital if you want to use ranged sneak attacks without relying on invisibility.

Very true! That's the only issue with ranged sneak attacks, it's very hard to get them after the initial rounds of combat.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The easiest / most common ways to get sneak attack are;

1: Flanking - Can't be done with ranged weapons under normal rules
2: Feinting - Possible at range, but very limited
3: Unobserved - Works just as well at range

Thus, I'd suggest working on that last item... arrange it so that you can see them, but they cannot see you;

Improved Invisibility
Darkness/Fog/Smoke/Fire/Snow + Ability to see through such
Tiny Hut
Illusory Wall (caster only)
Sniping
Et cetera

That said, the character as described sounds very much like the Phantom Thief archetype from UI... which trades Sneak Attack for exceptional skill options.


+1 on the slayer. I love the rogue too, but it has its weaknesses and if you really want to use sneak attack then ranged is a poor alternative to melee.

I would also recommend the hunter, inquisitor, and ranger but these will lack the charismatic element you are going for. They are all pretty good classes that can use bows and be sneaky.


Personally, even with the feat Ranged Feint I would still recommend against making a sneak attack ranged weapon build.

Slayer can work it okay, as long as you just accept that sneak attack is a thing you will get sometimes but not focus resources into it.

Slayer gets Studied Target and can pick up the ranger combat style feats which really helps to be good at archery. You also can still have some back up melee weapons which could give you the potential for sneak attack when needed.


There is a ranger archetype that rewards high charisma, the hooded champion in the ACG, it fills the Robin Hood, dashing scoudrel-hero archer mold. It is typically viewed as weak, but with your GM's statements it might be fun for you.


Alternatively if you wanted to go the rogue instead of the slayer, if you make your race elf, you automatically are proficient with longbows.


You're all giving me great advice and for that I thank you.

He will be a Half-Elf.

I'm actually not too worried about sneak attacks in combat as much as having it available for scouting ahead of my party and doing some nasty deeds :P


In that case, don't invest 100% in ranged combat. Flanking a wounded enemy to finishing it off is pretty fun, and more reliable that ranged sneak attack.


Unikatze wrote:

You're all giving me great advice and for that I thank you.

He will be a Half-Elf.

I'm actually not too worried about sneak attacks in combat as much as having it available for scouting ahead of my party and doing some nasty deeds :P

That sort of stuff is skills and role playing. The slayer only has 2 less skill points per level than the rogue, so you can pretty easily still do all the stuff you wanted to do. Just invest wisely in survival and perception.


Slayers are as good at scounting as Rogues are. You could argue that Rogues are "better" because of their larger skill set and more powerful sneak attack, but sneak attack is irrelevant if you're not intending to engage the enemy before the party arrives and you can always use a slayer talent to get trapfinding if your party needs a dedicated trap-breaker.

If you intend to focus on using a bow, I'd recommend taking a look at the Sniper archetype so you can make sneak attacks without having to be within 30ft. You might also want to build the character to minimize the penalties for sniping, since it's going to be your most reliable method of getting sneak attacks without getting close.


Sniper archetype isn't necessary or useful. You just need to get Sniper Goggles, or completely forget about ranged sneak attack (which is my recommendation).


I might just focus on regular ranged attacks.

The idea is for him to be a Rogue but he's not open about it. I'm planning on him following the party with an excuse more of an observer than a participant... he'll play the role of being a bit of a snobby rich guy who just happens to be decent with a bow, and has a rapier with him more for class than actual combat. So if he's not exceptional in combat I'm fine with it, at least at the beginning.
I'm more interested in him having more of a role outside of combat, hence the charisma stat, and also Dex if I want to end up slipping a weapon into an area I'm not supposed to, having high perception, being deceitful, swiping a document that's on a table without being noticed, etc.

Sovereign Court

Claxon wrote:
Personally, even with the feat Ranged Feint I would still recommend against making a sneak attack ranged weapon build.

I would say that you could go Moonlight Stalker Feint & Greater Feint, but archery builds are already pretty feat intensive, so I have no idea when that would all come online even with Slayer bonus feats.

CBDunkerson wrote:

3: Unobserved - Works just as well at range

Thus, I'd suggest working on that last item... arrange it so that you can see them, but they cannot see you;

...

Illusory Wall (caster only)

That can actually be one of the best uses of Silent Image for a caster with a ranged SA buddy (especially at low levels when spells are sparse), if a bit situational. (Illusory Wall only works for the caster and is too high level to be worth it very often.) If you have time to set up an ambush you can keep rolling the save every round until you pass it, making the wall translucent to you.

If you don't have time to do that, the caster can still set up the wall with an arrow slit for you to shoot through, which will provide cover and allow you to stealth with a large bonus to get SA on your first attack of the round, and if you are able to pass your save (with a +4 bonus due to a code word the caster uses to tell you it's fake) you can take a 5ft step away from the arrow slit and shoot through the wall itself getting SA with all attacks (only against foes who don't know it's fake yet of course).


Claxon wrote:
Sniper archetype isn't necessary or useful. You just need to get Sniper Goggles, or completely forget about ranged sneak attack (which is my recommendation).

The Sniper archetype is pretty good, especially the current version, which forgot to replace the 2nd level talent. Comparatively, Sniper Goggles are very expensive and thus hard to build around. But the thing about Slayer is that it doesn't usually care about its sneak attack, because it has other ways of boosting its combat abilities. And when the Slayer needs to use sneak attack for things like using the Assassinate talent, then you'll get it anyway because they'll be flat footed.

If all you want is an archery guy with good social skills, then the Sniper Slayer can do that just fine.


Unikatze wrote:

I might just focus on regular ranged attacks.

The idea is for him to be a Rogue but he's not open about it. I'm planning on him following the party with an excuse more of an observer than a participant... he'll play the role of being a bit of a snobby rich guy who just happens to be decent with a bow, and has a rapier with him more for class than actual combat. So if he's not exceptional in combat I'm fine with it, at least at the beginning.
I'm more interested in him having more of a role outside of combat, hence the charisma stat, and also Dex if I want to end up slipping a weapon into an area I'm not supposed to, having high perception, being deceitful, swiping a document that's on a table without being noticed, etc.

So for what it's worth, you can be plenty roguish without having sneak attack. Being a "rogue" is mostly about RP, not about sneak attack.

A slayer will be okay with a rapier, even if he focuses on archery. It's a full BAB class with a class ability that increases to hit and damage.

The unfortunate problem with wanting to be charismatic on a class that doesn't get anything special from charisma means that it only increases a few skills. Skills you want to be good in. However, your attribute modifier plays a progressively smaller roll in those skills as you level up, and if you're only looking at a 16 charisma vs a 10, remember that only a difference of 3.

Ultimately, rereading your description I think you should play a bard. You wont be as good at archery, but you can do alright and you'll have plenty to do in and out of combat with spells and your plethora of skills thanks to versatile performance.


I decided on going with Slayer as most of you guys suggested.

Unfortunately I use the sCoreForge sheet, which is not updated all the way up to Slayer...

As I'm new I liked that she sheet contained so many variables and calculated stuff on it's own. It also let me pick and choose racial stuff through drop down menus, so that was awesome.

Any suggestions on what other character sheet I can use that has similar functions and is updated?
This one also lets you create your own custom class, but it seems like some of the skills are not in there either :(


PCGen has the ACG book, which contains Slayer, in it.

http://pcgen.org/download/

Disclosure: I was on the PCGen team for a couple of years. Now I am just a user.

-- david


I downloaded PCGen a while ago. I just can't understand how it works...
Feels really wonky. I'll see if I can find a tutorial for it.


If you get stuck on PCGen, you could just ask for help in this thread. One of us should be able to help.


I can't even find the create a character button, hahah


There are ways for Rogues to get ranged sneak attack more easily now. Through the Expert Sniper feat and the URogue' Rogue Edge Stealth skill unlock, you are able to snipe without taking any stealth penalty and maintain your hidden position. A kobold, or human with Racial Heritage: Kobold, with the Kobold Sniper feat can get this even faster, and you can even do it on a Slayer. Of course, you should take the Sniper archetype every time. (If this isn't PFS and you are playing Rogue, ask if you can upgrade it to the Slayer version, which gets limitless sneak attack range rather than an increased sneak attack range, otherwise, you could just wait until you can afford Sniper Goggles and take a different archetype)


Unikatze wrote:
I can't even find the create a character button, hahah

Have you chosen your sources yet? Once you do that, you can go to file in the top left and choose New.


Melkiador wrote:
Unikatze wrote:
I can't even find the create a character button, hahah

Have you chosen your sources yet? Once you do that, you can go to file in the top left and choose New.

I'll have to have a closer look when I'm on my own PC.

Sovereign Court

Ninja is another method for ranged sa
Low levels vanish as swift
Lv 10+ greater invis
But the method loses effect with blindsight see invis & true seeing &etc.
Darkness & darkvision vs many humanoids
At low levels ok, higher levels very few enemies lack darkvision
Deeper darkness & see in darkness for tieflings
Goz mask + obs mist / sleet storm (depends on gm)

The key item for a rogue is what to do with (or how to get) no dex touch sneak attack. (Pistols work as an example if you have a level of gunslinger.) No dex AC isnt always an easy hit.


Righty_ wrote:

Ninja is another method for ranged sa

Low levels vanish as swift
Lv 10+ greater invis
But the method loses effect with blindsight see invis & true seeing &etc.
Darkness & darkvision vs many humanoids
At low levels ok, higher levels very few enemies lack darkvision
Deeper darkness & see in darkness for tieflings
Goz mask + obs mist / sleet storm (depends on gm)

The key item for a rogue is what to do with (or how to get) no dex touch sneak attack. (Pistols work as an example if you have a level of gunslinger.) No dex AC isnt always an easy hit.

This may be of help

PCGen Walkthrough video


Awesome.

Thanks.

I've also looked into Hero Lab, but I'm not sure it's worth the price tag.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
There are ways for Rogues to get ranged sneak attack more easily now. Through the Expert Sniper feat and the URogue' Rogue Edge Stealth skill unlock, you are able to snipe without taking any stealth penalty and maintain your hidden position. A kobold, or human with Racial Heritage: Kobold, with the Kobold Sniper feat can get this even faster, and you can even do it on a Slayer. Of course, you should take the Sniper archetype every time. (If this isn't PFS and you are playing Rogue, ask if you can upgrade it to the Slayer version, which gets limitless sneak attack range rather than an increased sneak attack range, otherwise, you could just wait until you can afford Sniper Goggles and take a different archetype)

Androids are also a good race choice. Bonus to Dex, Int, and Perception, and they can trade out their nanite surge for a racial trait that reduces sniping penalties by 10.


Diachronos wrote:


Androids are also a good race choice. Bonus to Dex, Int, and Perception, and they can trade out their nanite surge for a racial trait that reduces sniping penalties by 10.

Thanks. I don't think Android would work for our setting though :)


Unikatze, you may want to look at the Flying Blade Swashbuckler.

Rather than dealing with the problem of ranged sneak attack you get a precision damage bonus of +level that applies to your attacks within 60'.

Swashbucklers are partly charisma dependent and have the social skills allowing for a social build.

With a couple of traits you can pick up Stealth and Disable Device as class skills.

Note: with various bonuses that Flying Blade Swashbucklers get the range on the thrown weapons can get up there.

The combat effectiveness of a Flying Blade build can get downright insane at higher levels (but doesn't have to if you don't want it to).


Thank you ll for your help.

Here's how he turned out. Probably not the best build but I tried to balance it with efficiency and how I wanted to play him based on his story.

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to choose a feat for him at level 1 or not though... If so, would best be deadly aim, dodge, weapon finesse or something else?

Oh! I've also got no idea what Deity to choose.

Also, I managed o get PC Gen working, but I couldn't find Slayer, and I also found some other bugs, so I decided to stick with the YAPCG excel sheet.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/Unikatze/Tristan%20Portrait.jpeg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/Unikatze/Tristan%20Sheet.png


Don't forget if you find yourself facing a lot of the same enemies you can get the seething hatred feat which doubles the studies target bonus against targets of that type.

And the extreme prejudice feat lets your sneak attacks do d8s instead of d6s but only against studied targets of the favored enemy you picked


Declindgrunt wrote:

Don't forget if you find yourself facing a lot of the same enemies you can get the seething hatred feat which doubles the studies target bonus against targets of that type.

And the extreme prejudice feat lets your sneak attacks do d8s instead of d6s but only against studied targets of the favored enemy you picked

Good point.

At this time I have no clue what the setting will be, so I rather hold something off until a later feat.

Sovereign Court

Unikatze wrote:


I'm not sure if I'm supposed to choose a feat for him at level 1 or not though... If so, would best be deadly aim, dodge, weapon finesse or something else?

If you want to be an archer, the three most important feats are Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot.

Deadly Aim isn't all that good for archers because it's only a 2:1 ratio. (Great for gunslingers due to their amazing accuracy, but not archers so much.)


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Unikatze wrote:


I'm not sure if I'm supposed to choose a feat for him at level 1 or not though... If so, would best be deadly aim, dodge, weapon finesse or something else?

If you want to be an archer, the three most important feats are Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot.

Deadly Aim isn't all that good for archers because it's only a 2:1 ratio. (Great for gunslingers due to their amazing accuracy, but not archers so much.)

Priceless advice! Thanks a bunch!

Sovereign Court

Unikatze wrote:


Priceless advice! Thanks a bunch!

Oh - and when you get BAB +6 you could grab Manyshot ASAP.

Clustered Shot is also pretty awesome since it lets you mostly negate Damage Reduction.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Deadly Aim isn't all that good for archers because it's only a 2:1 ratio. (Great for gunslingers due to their amazing accuracy, but not archers so much.)

It's not bad (unless your accuracy sucks), just not as high a priority as the other feats you've mentioned.


Unikatze wrote:
Also, I managed o get PC Gen working, but I couldn't find Slayer, and I also found some other bugs, so I decided to stick with the YAPCG excel sheet.

The Slayer is in the ACG, on the sources dialog you either need to load the ACG (and books that it relies on) or the Pathfinder Core Supplements source group.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Unikatze wrote:


I'm not sure if I'm supposed to choose a feat for him at level 1 or not though... If so, would best be deadly aim, dodge, weapon finesse or something else?

If you want to be an archer, the three most important feats are Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot.

Deadly Aim isn't all that good for archers because it's only a 2:1 ratio. (Great for gunslingers due to their amazing accuracy, but not archers so much.)

I've never made a ranged character without Deadly Aim unless they have low accuracy.

The way to win with archers is to add as much static damage as you can and have as many hits as you can.

That said, Deadly Aim definitely can wait until later compared to other feats, which usually also allows you to increase your to hit to negate the penalties.

It could also be that since the archers I've built are Inquisitors, Warpriests, and Rangers (one you get to level 10 with Instant Enemy) which all have pretty strong means of increasing their to hit values I have noticed it very much.


Nylanfs wrote:
Unikatze wrote:
Also, I managed o get PC Gen working, but I couldn't find Slayer, and I also found some other bugs, so I decided to stick with the YAPCG excel sheet.
The Slayer is in the ACG, on the sources dialog you either need to load the ACG (and books that it relies on) or the Pathfinder Core Supplements source group.

FYI, Go to the Advanced Load screen and load the following.

Advanced Class Guide
Advanced Player's Guide
Core Rulebook
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Equipment
Ultimate Magic

or Go to the Basic Load screen and load the following.
Pathfinder RPG Core Supplements

Either will allow the selection of Slayer from the ACG.

-- david

Edit: If you find bugs, you can report them here and either Nylanfs or I will check it out for you.

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