Question about Zetha (Summoner class deck) first power about Banishing


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Hello everyone,

I received my Summoner Class deck a few days ago and I was looking forward to playing Zeta.

I was quite sad when I saw her very first power on her character card that says (Word for word);

______________________

After you play a spell that has the Attack trait, banish it.
______________________

She can use her Cohort for combat but she is rolling only 1 die for combat.

Anyways, my question is; even though it went back into the box because of her Power, can I still attempt to recharge the card I just played.

At first I thought not, but now I have a glimmer of hope because; I came across that page of errata or update on ruling, on this website, a few minutes ago.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1h4

Its basically under;

Help/Faq

Then in the box on the right hand side of the page (MORE FAQS)

The 8th one;

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game: Wrath of the Righteous Fri, Oct 7, 2016

Then under Rules Question

The 7th one;

Something made a card go back in the box or into a deck even though there were still things on the card that hadn't been done. Do I still do those things?

Yes.

Resolution: On page 10 of the rulebook, following the paragraph that appears after the bulleted list of actions, add the following: "Cards often have instructions that you need to follow after you play the card; follow these instructions even if the card is no longer in your hand (even if the card is out of your sight, such as in the box or in a deck)."

posted May 2015 | back to top


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Hum I agree that the way the power is written you could argue that 1) since it doesn't say "instead" (of the normal dealing with the spell once cast), and 2) since you can select the order of things happening "after" the card is played, you should be able to decide to try the recharge first and then since Zetha power doesn't say where the spell is banished from (so by default your hand), since it's no more there it could be an impossible task, thus with no effect.

But that is very certainly not the intention (because what would be the point of this power if it was never to be used, except on spells with the attack trait that would be cast through a reveal... which none of the existing ones do I believe?).
So I guess you should read the power as "After playing a spell with... when you would diacard, recharge, bury or return it to the box, banish it instead."
Note that IMHO, I would house rule that if a spell was so powerful that it had "after playing, remove it from the game", I wouldn't allow Zetha's power to banish it instead.
Having said that I'm currently in Halloween vacations very far from my boxes and notes so I may be proven completely wrong on that one.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Note however that Athez has a pretty good combat level : d10 + 1to4 + 3 + ADlvl is nothing to be ashamed of vs a fighter with d10 + 1to4 + 2 + weapon. And spells to help.


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Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

This is a place where the Golden Rules apply -- there is a conflict between the character power ("After you play a spell that has the Attack trait, banish it.") and the card power ("After you play this card, if you do not have the X skill, banish it; otherwise succeed at a X check to recharge it instead of discarding it"). The Golden Rules tell us that if two cards are in conflict, characters overrule boons/banes, so the character power applies and the card is banished.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Thanks skizzerz. I was looking for this obvious answer and somehow missed it.... vacations...

Lone Shark Games

Zetha is a bit more subtle and less brute forcey, but you should find her fairly reliable and resilient in play. She can evade dangerous fights and is an ace at acquires and barriers. When she decides to fight she can reroll a die on combat checks, so any bonus dice (such as from spells and allies) are extra helpful.

Hope it works out for you.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Frencois wrote:
Note however that Athez has a pretty good combat level : d10 + 1to4 + 3 + ADlvl is nothing to be ashamed of vs a fighter with d10 + 1to4 + 2 + weapon. And spells to help.

I don't think she gets a d4 by default. She's not adding her stealth skill to her normal strength roll, she's using it instead of. So by default she rolls 1d10+3.

Arcaneumkiller wrote:

She can use her Cohort for combat but she is rolling only 1 die for combat.

It's true she's not as strong at combat as, say, a normal caster who can use attack spells for divine + 2d4, but keep in mind you're losing 2d4 but gaining the ability to reroll one die for a measely recharge.

I just got Stalking Armor (granted I took an armor slot for my card feat) which is a reveal to increase stealth checks by 2, so she rolls 1d10+5 by default, and my first skill feat will be to increase her dex so it will be 1d10+6.

That's still not a ton, but keep in mind she can recharge a card to reroll any one die. And if you use a blessing, or use allies who help with combat checks, or add spells that add to non-attack-spell combat checks (see: enchanted fang, frog rain .etc), that power becomes even more useful.

Lone Shark Games

I think Frencois's "1to4" meant skill feats, not 1d4 :)

But, yes, exactly: all that stuff Pyrocat said.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Oh, derp, yeah that makes more sense.

I'm also considering using my next card feat to take a weapon on her. She has a decent dex stat (that I will continue to augment with skill feats) and it'd be nice to have a weapon with a quality discard/recharge power to use on those cases where I don't have a blessing or spell to augment her attack with. But maybe I'd be better off going all in on blessings/spells.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I have a followup question about this power and two of the items in the deck - Staff of Cackling Wrath and Evocation Staff.

I'm a bit confused about their inclusion, since none of the summoners could use them more than once per scenario. Right?
I mean, "this counts as playing a spell" will trigger "After you play a spell that has the Attack trait" since the item has said trait.

Or is there some way, that I'm not seeing, that these items get around the standard summoner restrictions?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Nope, looks like they would be one-and-done cards for the scenario. But sometimes it might be useful to have a bury-able attack "spell" for two of those summoners, I suppose. For Zetha... no way.


What are the deck numbers? In Organized Play, if you banish a card which is at least 2 deck numbers less than the adventure you're playing, you can just pull it back for the next scenario. Olenjack's been doing that awhile with Unearthly Aim in our SotRu game.


I was under the impression that "this counts as playing a spell" means "pretend you have played your spell for this check/step, you may not play another," not "the card you are playing is treated as both a spell and an item (or whatever the card happens to be)."

Under this interpretation, I don't see why summoners would have to bury/banish their staves.

Contrast this with cards like the Buckler Gun which say something along the lines of "Treat this card as if it is a weapon" or something similar (I don't have the cards on me at the moment, so I don't have the exact text).


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

@Ashram - I'm fairly certain it's the latter (both an item and a spell).
I just wanted confirmation, since two such items were included in the deck (which is pretty meta thinking, I know).

btw, the Buckler Gun reads, "this counts as playing a weapon instead of an armor."
Which is there so you can still play an armor on the check, if need be. But is clearly different from the items we're talking about.

@elcoderdude - Cackling Wrath is level 2 in the Summoner deck (it's level 1 in Witch, heh), so it'll be a while before that would be reliable.

It's not like Zetha needs an item like the Staff. Not unless she runs up against the very rare (in Season 1, at least) monster immune to cold. I'm just planning out my card feats. ;)
Balazar would consider taking it, for those times when his 2d12+deck are not going to handle whatever Combat-30-plus Demon is coming his way. But that 'shortcoming' is why I'm playing her over him. Aaaanyway...

Thanks!


I just want to make sure that I'm articulating my interpretation of the "this counts as playing a spell" text.

I fully understand that playing such card counts as both your item and spell for that check. What I'm not sure of is whether or not the card should be treated as a spell in the literal sense.

Are we certain that playing these staves is meant to trigger Zetha's banish power?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

After checking with Keith earlier today, I'm even more convinced than before that the card is treated as a spell in every way, and it would trigger the banish power for Zetha.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I hear ya, but think of it like the CD Damiel - Unearthly Aim question (or was it Charm Person? Regardless...):

Did you play a spell?
Did that spell have the attack trait?
Then you have to banish (or bury) the card you played.

I can't think of a way to possibly answer No to either question. :)


I'd argue that the answer to question 2 could be "no" in the event that the item being played didn't itself count as the "spell", but rather, the "spell" being played was a nebulous card that doesn't physically exist.

We've seen instances where this is the case, the most common being the frequently appearing "for you combat check, you may discard a card to use your arcane skill plus....this counts as playing a spell." I know that I'm referencing a character power and not a card, but the situation is similar enough to warrant bringing it up.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I really feel that value of the Staff of Cackling Wrath in the Summoner Deck is severely lessened if its cost to play is bury/banish instead of reveal.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

If a monster had a power that said "if you played a spell on this check, discard a card," you'd discard a card after using that staff, right? I believe "this counts as" is an all intents and purposes thing.

Though these staves may not be very good, the simpler explanation is that class decks have gotten a lot more refined since the 4 character days, but still tend to have a couple "why is THIS here? :<" cards

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Dave Riley wrote:

If a monster had a power that said "if you played a spell on this check, discard a card," you'd discard a card after using that staff, right? I believe "this counts as" is an all intents and purposes thing.

Though these staves may not be very good, the simpler explanation is that class decks have gotten a lot more refined since the 4 character days, but still tend to have a couple "why is THIS here? :<" cards

I mean, they can't give you ALL cards that are amazing, otherwise they'd be even MORE optimized than the old class decks. :-P

Lone Shark Games

How pro/anti Attack the summoners were varied a bit over the design cycle of the product (at one point, for instance, one of them cheerfully used Attack), but one of the early questions I received when working on it was essentially that the deck _should_ have something Attack in it so that those powers still meant something to people using the Class Deck.

I'm not terribly committed to that, personally, and in hindsight I'd probably swap the Staff out for something a little less fiddly for Summoners. That said, there are people (like me) who like being able to deck thin, and being able to easily bury your items does have some real use for Alase and Balazar builds.


Thanks for the insight. I'm still looking forward to grabbing the Evocation Staff for Balazar as the attack power is good enough to warrant keeping it around despite it being buried on use.

It's just the Staff of Cackling Wrath that doesn't seem that appealing to me. In hindsight, I wonder if you should have included Life Drain instead as it does the same thing and would be much less confusing to play.


Frencois wrote:
Note however that Athez has a pretty good combat level : d10 + 1to4 + 3 + ADlvl is nothing to be ashamed of vs a fighter with d10 + 1to4 + 2 + weapon. And spells to help.

There are also some allies, items even armors which boost your DEX or Stealth skill which you can use in fight ( if my understanding of rules is correct). Stuff like Ophidian Armor (+2DEX), Cloak of Elvenkind (+d6 Stealth ), Burglar (+d10 Stealth). Stealth skill is the most useless skill in entire game, so there won't be any competition with other players for such boons.

Iceman wrote:

I have a followup question about this power and two of the items in the deck - Staff of Cackling Wrath and Evocation Staff.

I'm a bit confused about their inclusion, since none of the summoners could use them more than once per scenario. Right?
I mean, "this counts as playing a spell" will trigger "After you play a spell that has the Attack trait" since the item has said trait.

Or is there some way, that I'm not seeing, that these items get around the standard summoner restrictions?

So, what is correct answer for that? Should Zetha banish staves or not?


From the comments here, it seems that the answer is "yes." The text "this counts as playing a spell" should be interpreted as "when playing this card, treat it as both an item and a spell."

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

It counts as playing a spell for anything that cares about whether a spell is being played.


Vic Wertz wrote:
It counts as playing a spell for anything that cares about whether a spell is being played.

Bummer, I was hoping staves would be an out of scope attack so she wouldn't have to banish... I still think I'll give her a whorl. I originally bought the Summoner class deck for Balazar but he already beat Wrath so I want to try something more subtle for Mummy's Mask.


Oh I got so caught up in reading this discussion I forgot why I came here in the first place...

For Zetha's "You may banish a monster from your hand to evade your encounter or to use your Stealth skill in place of the listed skill for a non-combat check" does that mean I can banish a monster to use Stealth for acquiring boons using this power or is it meant to apply to versus bane rolls only?


You can use it for ANY check that does not say "Combat" as the skill for the check.

Typically this means you won't use it do defeat a monster, because usually the check to defeat a monster is a Combat check (but not always). You can use it to defeat most barriers, and to acquire most boons. Also before-you-act, after-you-act, closing checks... you name it. Anything that doesn't say "Combat".


That's a pretty nice power! More than makes up for the lackluster combat which she can avoid pretty much at will anyway.

Paizo Employee Designer

Linda's playing Zetha in Season of the Plundered Tombs, and she's done fine on combat so far. The veteran nature of her eidolon gives her a fairly good static bonus, she has recharge to reroll, and it always invokes the cold trait, so the other two characters, who have Blessing of the Elements, can recharge to bless her as needed. Last session she picked up the item of Ma'at, which is incredibly powerful for her (though of course she can't keep it, but in regular Mummy's Mask? Wow!) since she can get rid of her two-per-round free monsters to turn any or all of her dice into 5s. She used this more than once to prevent a roll from being too high and triggering a bad condition, and it also allowed her to roll without a blessing on important rolls where she needed a 4 or 5 on her d10 (so she usually succeeded and didn't waste a monster, but normally we probably would have blessed the roll to be sure it succeeded).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I've also had good luck with Zetha in SoPluTo. With four skill feats in Dex, adding the Scenario's AD number to combat, and the extra d6 from the Gloomwalker power (When you play Ahtez for your combat check, add 1d6), I'm 1d10+1d6+11 in deck four for combat on a reveal. Jonsin' for that second d6...

Lone Shark Games

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I can confirm that Alase, who also does not roll a lot of dice, is able to take on PluTo through AD6.

I wouldn't try to solo with her, mind you.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Keith Richmond wrote:

When she decides to fight she can reroll a die on combat checks, so any bonus dice (such as from spells and allies) are extra helpful.

Hope it works out for you.

Dammit I keep forgetting about this!


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

About to start Adventure 6 of Season of the Righteous, and lordy is Zetha strong in that box. The extra skill feats have both her Dex and Cha maxed out (so she can recharge stuff), and mythic charges plus Ahtez's veteran aspect give her a very solid static modifier.

Plus it's just good fun to Pokemon certain monsters out of the way (i.e. use a summoned monster's check-to-defeat as the result of her combat). She's unlikely to fail such rolls, to be fair, but since the power feat upgrade is barriers, it's worth it. :D

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Iceman wrote:
About to start Adventure 6 of Season of the Righteous, and lordy is Zetha strong in that box. The extra skill feats have both her Dex and Cha maxed out (so she can recharge stuff), and mythic charges plus Ahtez's veteran aspect give her a very solid static modifier.

Which Mythic Path did you go with? Since there isn't a Charisma-and-Dex one... My pick would probably be Mythic Trickster.


Keith Richmond wrote:

I can confirm that Alase, who also does not roll a lot of dice, is able to take on PluTo through AD6.

I wouldn't try to solo with her, mind you.

I keep waffling between Zetha and Alase to play Mummy's Mask with Drelm. Zetha has been tons of fun through AP3 but I hate to banish good offense spells as they don't come up that often even using Drelm's extra draw at the trader.

So for Alase's power "At the start or end of your turn, you may examine the top card of the cohort Tonbarse's location then (you may) shuffle that deck, then draw Tonbarse" would I be able to use this power at the end of my turn then immediately display Tonbarse again?

I assume if it's used at the start of my turn I can use the display power any time I want during that turn...

Lone Shark Games

Talonius wrote:
So for Alase's power "At the start or end of your turn, you may examine the top card of the cohort Tonbarse's location then (you may) shuffle that deck, then draw Tonbarse" would I be able to use this power at the end of my turn then immediately display Tonbarse again?

If you use the power at the end of your turn, you have to display Tonbarse after you end your turn and reset. So you're down 1 card for the turn. If you go Sarkoris Guide, you can add a display to the power, which works out nicely.

Quote:
I assume if it's used at the start of my turn I can use the display power any time I want during that turn...

Yep.

Alase is a little tricky to play optimally, but has some unique options that offer interesting utility to the party.

Zetha is more consistent at dealing with just about everything, and a lot harder to kill.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
James McKendrew wrote:
Iceman wrote:
About to start Adventure 6 of Season of the Righteous, and lordy is Zetha strong in that box. The extra skill feats have both her Dex and Cha maxed out (so she can recharge stuff), and mythic charges plus Ahtez's veteran aspect give her a very solid static modifier.
Which Mythic Path did you go with? Since there isn't a Charisma-and-Dex one... My pick would probably be Mythic Trickster.

Yup. BYA Int checks and a few other things made that path more attractive than Champion.

Cat and Black Robe compensate for her difficulty in recharging spells - or I just sneak that spell back into her deck (aka use Stealth for the recharge check).

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