Investigators in PFS


Pathfinder Society

Silver Crusade 4/5

1. Does the FAQ about alchemist crafting in PFS also apply to investigators?
2. Can investigators use their inspiration on day job rolls?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Fromper wrote:

1. Does the FAQ about alchemist crafting in PFS also apply to investigators?

2. Can investigators use their inspiration on day job rolls?

1. Investigators are able to craft alchemical items and poisons as if they were alchemists.

2. Only if it's unlimited (IE "free").

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ***

Is there a source for your answer about point number two and the unlimited bonus? If so, I have a pouty psychic search Oracle who would be VERY interested in that!

Hmm


Baroness Bobbi wrote:

Is there a source for your answer about point number two and the unlimited bonus? If so, I have a pouty psychic search Oracle who would be VERY interested in that!

Hmm

Day Jobs assume a weeks worth of work, so any relevant bonuses have to be ones that last that long.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Baroness Bobbi wrote:

Is there a source for your answer about point number two and the unlimited bonus? If so, I have a pouty psychic search Oracle who would be VERY interested in that!

Hmm

There is no source for that. There are two camps on using abilities like inspiration on day jobs, but there never has been an answer from Campaign Leadership.

1. Day jobs represent work over a prolonged period of time so you would run out of points in your inspiration pool long before you finished the task.

2. Abilities such as inspiration are used once per check - regardless of how long the check takes - so they can be used with day jobs. Abilities that have a duration (like inspire competence) cannot be used because they would run out.

For the record I'm firmly in camp 2.

(And to forestall a derail, there is a specific exception allowing crafter's fortune to count for a day job because it lasts 24 hours with no material components. As long as you can cast it every day, you can use that one spell.)

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Indeed. There have been many threads about Inspiration and Day Jobs (they're easy to search for). You may encounter Table Variation.

I don't personally see a reason to deny Inspiration (assuming you're not spending points on it), but apparently some are just uncomfortable with it.

4/5 *

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The day job is an abstraction - it's one check only because making dozens of checks and averaging them is a waste of time. This is why many people think inspiration does not apply to day jobs unless it is "at will". the clarification was made before inspiration was a thing, but the precedent is that only bonuses that can apply at will count towards day jobs.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Nefreet wrote:

Indeed. There have been many threads about Inspiration and Day Jobs (they're easy to search for). You may encounter Table Variation.

I don't personally see a reason to deny Inspiration (assuming you're not spending points on it), but apparently some are just uncomfortable with it.

Even if you do have to spend points on it the Camp 2 argument is that you only have to spend one point of inspiration to make any skill check, regardless of how long it takes. So by that line of reasoning, Inspiration is allowed even if it does require spending a point for the day job skill.

The Exchange 1/5

Kevin Willis wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Indeed. There have been many threads about Inspiration and Day Jobs (they're easy to search for). You may encounter Table Variation.

I don't personally see a reason to deny Inspiration (assuming you're not spending points on it), but apparently some are just uncomfortable with it.

Even if you do have to spend points on it the Camp 2 argument is that you only have to spend one point of inspiration to make any skill check, regardless of how long it takes. So by that line of reasoning, Inspiration is allowed even if it does require spending a point for the day job skill.

Meh you are making MANY checks over a period of time, if it is not infinite then it does not belong. just like you cannot use guidance (or can you?).

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Kevin Willis wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Indeed. There have been many threads about Inspiration and Day Jobs (they're easy to search for). You may encounter Table Variation.

I don't personally see a reason to deny Inspiration (assuming you're not spending points on it), but apparently some are just uncomfortable with it.

Even if you do have to spend points on it the Camp 2 argument is that you only have to spend one point of inspiration to make any skill check, regardless of how long it takes. So by that line of reasoning, Inspiration is allowed even if it does require spending a point for the day job skill.

And yet the spell Guidance isn't allowed on Day Jobs.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Guild Guide 8 wrote:

Temporary bonuses from sources other than crafter’s fortune do not affect Day Job checks.

• Equipment
• Feats
• Racial bonuses
• Class features
• Traits
• Familiar bonuses
• Crafter’s fortune spell

Inspiration is a class feature.

In any case, the biggest difference +6 from inspiration could make would be to change the result from 34 (75 gp) to 40 (150 gp). By the time a PC is high enough level to roll 34 regularly on skill checks, will 75 gp really matter much?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

That's level 4 for an Empiricist.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Nefreet wrote:
Kevin Willis wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Indeed. There have been many threads about Inspiration and Day Jobs (they're easy to search for). You may encounter Table Variation.

I don't personally see a reason to deny Inspiration (assuming you're not spending points on it), but apparently some are just uncomfortable with it.

Even if you do have to spend points on it the Camp 2 argument is that you only have to spend one point of inspiration to make any skill check, regardless of how long it takes. So by that line of reasoning, Inspiration is allowed even if it does require spending a point for the day job skill.
And yet the spell Guidance isn't allowed on Day Jobs.

I think you're missing the crux of the argument, Nefreet.

Guidance is a spell you cast ahead of time that gives you a +1 competence bonus on a roll within the next minute.

Inspiration wrote:
An investigator has the ability to augment skill checks and ability checks through his brilliant inspiration. The investigator has an inspiration pool equal to 1/2 his investigator level + his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). An investigator's inspiration pool refreshes each day, typically after he gets a restful night's sleep. As a free action, he can expend one use of inspiration from his pool to add 1d6 (his inspiration die) to the result of that check, including any on which he takes 10 or takes 20. This choice is made after the check is rolled and before the result is revealed.

Unlike spells or abilities that give you a temporary bonus for a fixed amount of time, Inspiration is used after you make the check. It doesn't matter if the check is a swift action or takes you 32 years of study before you attempt it, it's still only one usage.

leonvios wrote:
Meh you are making MANY checks over a period of time, if it is not infinite then it does not belong. just like you cannot use guidance (or can you?).

You can't use guidance (see above), but there's nothing at all that says you are making MANY checks. Even if you want to assume the Day Job is an extrapolation of multiple checks instead of a single check (though it is only one roll), we can look at the CRB to see how often a check is made to earn money with a skill:

  • Craft is once per day or once per week (your choice)
  • Perform is once per day
  • Profession is once per week

Inspiration refreshes every day.

So will likely see some table variation on this but at my tables if you have an ability that refreshes daily that is used as you make a check or after you make a check, it's fine to use. If it provides a temporary buff (all checks/one check in the next X minutes) it's not allowed (with the named exception of crafter's fortune).

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:


And yet the spell Guidance isn't allowed on Day Jobs.

Hard to work when you're "guiding" yourself all day...

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Nefreet wrote:


And yet the spell Guidance isn't allowed on Day Jobs.
Hard to work when you're "guiding" yourself all day...

Bad pun! *gets rolled up newspaper* Bad!


Kevin Willis wrote:

Inspiration wrote:
An investigator has the ability to augment skill checks and ability checks through his brilliant inspiration.

...we can look at the CRB to see how often a check is made to earn money with a skill

Did the wording for Day Jobs change on Season 8?

Previously a day job was a day job check, not an ability check or a skill check. Indeed the skills referenced were replaced by Day jobs.

5/5 *** Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

Curaigh: That oddity was changed several seasons ago.

Sovereign Court 3/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Canada—Ontario—Toronto

What if an Investigator PC purchased a vanity that allowed them to use a different skill for their Day Job Check, one that they could freely use Inspiration on, would it be able to be used then?

Grand Lodge 2/5

I've been adding free inspiration to my Swash-igator's day job checks using Knowledge(Local) by way of the Information Broker vanity from the Pathfinder Society Primer. I've had a few GMs (including a VC) question it, but they've been satisfied with my explanation that it's an unlimited, always-on ability. In fact, it usually gets addressed in a roundabout way during the scenario when I'm adding a d6 to every knowledge, perception and diplomacy roll among others (by way of the Expanded Inspiration talent).

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ***

Inspiration to diplomacy is an unlimited, always on ability for me.

But if class features do not add to the day job check, then I probably don't get it.

Bobbi goes off to pout.

(This is normal. She's a very pouty oracle.)

1/5 Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo

temporary bonuses from class features don't work. Inspiration isn't temporary, it lasts for the entire check.

1/5

my empiricist is nearing the end of his career but the question of can inspiration be used with day job rolls would be one I'd like to see officially answered.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

It seems pretty cut-and-dried to me.

Temporary bonuses from class features do not affect the day job roll.
Inspiration is a class feature. Your INT score provides a permanent bonus to Craft checks. Inspiration provides a temporary bonus, not a permanent bonus.

Therefore Inspiration does not affect your day job roll.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Thomas Hutchins wrote:
temporary bonuses from class features don't work. Inspiration isn't temporary, it lasts for the entire check.

That's where I disagree. Inspiration applies to one skill check. That's what makes it a temporary bonus, at least in my reading. My INT bonus is always there, which is makes it a permanent bonus.

EDIT: Suppose a level 4 wizard has 20 INT (+5) and 4 ranks in Craft (Alchemy), a class skill. His permanent bonus is +12. A level 4 investigator with 20 INT and 4 ranks in Craft (alchemy) also gets a +4 competence bonus on Craft (alchemy), for a permanent bonus of +16.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Thomas Hutchins wrote:
temporary bonuses from class features don't work. Inspiration isn't temporary, it lasts for the entire check.

Inspiration is temporary for some rolls (spending points), and is permanent for others (used for free).

That dichotomy is why this keeps coming up, because people like "Yes or No" answers.

5/5 5/55/55/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Theconiel wrote:

It seems pretty cut-and-dried to me.

Temporary bonuses from class features do not affect the day job roll.
Inspiration is a class feature. Your INT score provides a permanent bonus to Craft checks. Inspiration provides a temporary bonus, not a permanent bonus.

Therefore Inspiration does not affect your day job roll.

There's no functional difference between permanent and at will as a free action

1/5 Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo

even needing to spend points.
Crafters fortune is a spell that lasts days, and thus is ruled to cover enough time of the check to apply to the check.
Inspiration is a resource like a spell and it lasts the entire check.
It's not temporary, it's conditional, but it is a boost to the skill. Temporary bonuses are things that only last for x time.

Reason it's not temporary is you can't tell me how long the bonus lasts for. There's no duration or limit to the time that inspiration can influence. If you had a tome that took 10 years to read and then you can make a spellcraft for those 10 years of reading to understand the book then the 1 inspiration point is lasting 10 years.

1/5 Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Theconiel wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:
temporary bonuses from class features don't work. Inspiration isn't temporary, it lasts for the entire check.

That's where I disagree. Inspiration applies to one skill check. That's what makes it a temporary bonus, at least in my reading. My INT bonus is always there, which is makes it a permanent bonus.

EDIT: Suppose a level 4 wizard has 20 INT (+5) and 4 ranks in Craft (Alchemy), a class skill. His permanent bonus is +12. A level 4 investigator with 20 INT and 4 ranks in Craft (alchemy) also gets a +4 competence bonus on Craft (alchemy), for a permanent bonus of +16.

The alchemist and investigator's bonus doesn't apply to day jobs since it doesn't cover every use of the skill.

5/5 5/5

Thomas Hutchins wrote:
The alchemist and investigator's bonus doesn't apply to day jobs since it doesn't cover every use of the skill.

Aside from crafting alchemical items, which application of the Craft (alchemy) skill do you propose is used for day job checks?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Thomas Hutchins wrote:
Theconiel wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:
temporary bonuses from class features don't work. Inspiration isn't temporary, it lasts for the entire check.

That's where I disagree. Inspiration applies to one skill check. That's what makes it a temporary bonus, at least in my reading. My INT bonus is always there, which is makes it a permanent bonus.

EDIT: Suppose a level 4 wizard has 20 INT (+5) and 4 ranks in Craft (Alchemy), a class skill. His permanent bonus is +12. A level 4 investigator with 20 INT and 4 ranks in Craft (alchemy) also gets a +4 competence bonus on Craft (alchemy), for a permanent bonus of +16.

The alchemist and investigator's bonus doesn't apply to day jobs since it doesn't cover every use of the skill.

This is how I rule it as well. But some (including my VC) rule it differently.

It's a conditional bonus. The Craft skill covers other functions besides crafting. Similarly a bonus to lying couldn't be used on a Bluff Day Job check, even if lying is what you'd primarily be doing.

1/5 Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo

1 person marked this as a favorite.

you could be inspecting crafted goods. figuring out what mystery liquid is. Any and all things that craft alchemy could be used for.

The Exchange 5/5

Pete Winz wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:
The alchemist and investigator's bonus doesn't apply to day jobs since it doesn't cover every use of the skill.
Aside from crafting alchemical items, which application of the Craft (alchemy) skill do you propose is used for day job checks?

I could see an Alchemist charging for or making money doing:

1) Potion identification, (or the ID of other alchemical items),
2) the buying (discounted) items second hand from adventurers (or others who have "recovered" them) for quality checking and re-selling at full price,
3) Representation of the local Alchemist Guild in City Council meetings or other political events, (this one might not be a use of the Craft skill - unless he had to "pass muster" to the other guild members to ensure that "he's one of us"...)
4) Teaching the skill to students (realizing that everyone doesn't "learn by leveling" - or do they? do we only learn or get better at something by adding in skill points when we level, and thus never really need to study anything?)
5) Consulting for the local Cops - Examining something (dead body? local pet? door frame?) to see if an alchemical substance has been used on it.

just to name a few...

5/5 5/5

The Bluff skill has three applications cited in the Core Rulebook: telling lies, feinting, and passing secret messages. The description of the Caravan vanity from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide says:

Quote:
If, on the other hand, you want to skirt the laws, focus on smuggling, and otherwise use deception to maintain the caravan’s success, you can use Bluff to make Day Job rolls.

Since the vanity description does not mention the other two functions of the Bluff skill, I would suggest that a bonus to deception should be applicable to the Day Job roll, although I could see some GMs ruling differently.

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pete Winz wrote:

The Bluff skill has three applications cited in the Core Rulebook: telling lies, feinting, and passing secret messages. The description of the Caravan vanity from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide says:

Quote:
If, on the other hand, you want to skirt the laws, focus on smuggling, and otherwise use deception to maintain the caravan’s success, you can use Bluff to make Day Job rolls.
Since the vanity description does not mention the other two functions of the Bluff skill, I would suggest that a bonus to deception should be applicable to the Day Job roll, although I could see some GMs ruling differently.

I think the current rule is that something is supposed to apply permanently and to all uses of the skill isn't it?

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Pete Winz wrote:

The Bluff skill has three applications cited in the Core Rulebook: telling lies, feinting, and passing secret messages. The description of the Caravan vanity from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide says:

Quote:
If, on the other hand, you want to skirt the laws, focus on smuggling, and otherwise use deception to maintain the caravan’s success, you can use Bluff to make Day Job rolls.
Since the vanity description does not mention the other two functions of the Bluff skill, I would suggest that a bonus to deception should be applicable to the Day Job roll, although I could see some GMs ruling differently.

But a bonus to lying is not the same as a bonus to deception.

After reading the vanity description I could be completely convinced, for instance, that someone could meet those criteria while only using Bluff for the purpose of sending secret messages.

5/5 5/5

Let's look at the Perform skill. It has lots of uses, not all of which are for busking, but the PFS FAQ says:

Quote:

Does the gladhanding class ability available to bards with the street performer archetype affect Day Job checks?

Perform checks made as part of a Day Job check benefit from this ability, doubling the earned gold from all Day Job checks made using the Perform skill.

This would suggest that other modifiers that apply to one specific use of a skill should still be allowed for the Day Job check, provided that they meet the other requirements (not a temporary bonus, for example).

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pete Winz wrote:

Let's look at the Perform skill. It has lots of uses, not all of which are for busking, but the PFS FAQ says:

Quote:

Does the gladhanding class ability available to bards with the street performer archetype affect Day Job checks?

Perform checks made as part of a Day Job check benefit from this ability, doubling the earned gold from all Day Job checks made using the Perform skill.
This would suggest that other modifiers that apply to one specific use of a skill should still be allowed for the Day Job check, provided that they meet the other requirements (not a temporary bonus, for example).

It would imply that an ability that lets you make more money works on a dayjob check.

Here we go

John compton: wrote:

Avatar-1 and Nefreet are correct here. Unless the item specifically grants a bonus on Day Job rolls, the item must grant a uniform bonus to the entire skill to help with a Day Job roll.[/url]

These Work
+2 Bluff
+5 on Bluff checks made as part of a Day Job check

These Don't
+2 Bluff to tell a lie
+5 on Handle Animal checks made to rear a wild animal
+10 on Diplomacy checks to request favors
+4 on Heal checks to apply first aid

1/5 Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo

A street performer earns double the normal amount of money from Perform checks.

there is no bonus to perform checks to busk or anything. It is you use perform you get double gold. Applying to any and all uses of perform for gold.

Now if you had something that said the alchemist's bonus to craft alchemy applied always you'd have something actually relevant.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Thomas Hutchins wrote:


Now if you had something that said the alchemist's bonus to craft alchemy applied always you'd have something actually relevant.

That one was annoyingly left up in the air. The entire point of craft: alchemy is to.. well. Craft. Alchemy.

5/5 5/5

Thanks, BNW, that's pretty definitive and I hadn't seen that reference before.

5/5 5/5

Thomas Hutchins wrote:
Now if you had something that said the alchemist's bonus to craft alchemy applied always you'd have something actually relevant.

I think the bonus to Craft (alchemy) applying only for crafting items is specific because they are intentionally excluding the bonus from uses like identifying potions.

1/5 Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo

1 person marked this as a favorite.

which makes it not cover all uses of the skill and thus doesn't count as per the quoted post.

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pete Winz wrote:
Thanks, BNW, that's pretty definitive and I hadn't seen that reference before.

seek and fetch are my 2 trained tricks.

Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Investigators in PFS All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.