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So first thoughts:
The fact that this is more an intelligence focused clasd makes up for the loss of skills I feel, helped more by picking human, half elf, or even elf so no real loss there given the character would have access to spells. By 20th level, unless I am missing something or miscalculating, I believe this gives the character access to 8th level spells. Which means, unless I’m incorrect, this character would have nearly all the spellcasting of wizard expect, the very highest level of spells, but with a great many of the tricks and benefits of being a rogue. Am I missing anything?
If everything checks out, I'm very much open for ideas when it comes to how to build this concept. Whether with traits, feats, races, equipment, or whatever other ideas any of you my have.
Essentially the basic idea is that of a skillful, cunning, tricky, and generally useful in most any situation character. With this, focus of being a skill monkey with the utility of spellcasting, battlefield control, and perhaps even select blasty spells when damage dealing is needed. Perhaps with this the flair for the dramatic when not trying to be sneaky or unnoticed.
…also, in case one thinks to bring it up, yes I know that is been clarified that while the Eldrich Scoundrel is legal for Pathfinder Society, combining it with the Unchained Rogue is not for some annoying reason despite the fact there is no conflict by RAW. This concept won’t be for Pathfinder Society play, and I would just need to make sure the DM and the other players are on board with the idea.
So first thoughts:
The fact that this is more an intelligence focused clasd makes up for the loss of skills I feel, helped more by picking human, half elf, or even elf so no real loss there given the character would have access to spells. By 20th level, unless I am missing something or miscalculating, I believe this gives the character access to 8th level spells. Which means, unless I’m incorrect, this character would have nearly all the spellcasting of wizard expect, the very highest level of spells, but with a great many of the tricks and benefits of being a rogue. Am I missing anything?
You are. Eldritch Scoundrels use the Magus spell progression so they only get up to 6th level spells.
If you thought it progressed as a Wizard I'm curious how you came up with 8th level rather than 9th.
Gisher is correct; Eldritch Scoundrel uses Magus spell progression. You cap out with 6th level spells.
My thoughts are that you should go pure Eldritch Scoundrel or Rogue 1/Wizard 3 (with Accomplished Sneak Attacker)/Arcane Trickster 10.
Eldritch Scoundrel, especially when combined with URogue, shines in the same way a Rogue does, with magic to back it up. Learn to love the spell Sense Vitals.
Arcane Trickster is better as a blaster, using ray spells + Sneak Attack to amplify damage. There are two good AT guides out there. One focuses on this aspect (Abraham Spalding's if I recall) and the other more on a build that suits Eldritch Scoundrel (A Highly Regarded Expert).
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Ah well... you see I had the consideration that since it cast from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list though it could only go up to 6th level by itself... Meaning I felt that by taking Arcan Trickster could get spells above 6th level. A consideration brought up by one on another thread.
Mmm, well Eldritch Scoundrel has plenty for it by itself. Also, as said, especially with Unchained Rogue.
A well you see I had the consideration that since it cast from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list though it could only go up to 6th level by itself... Meaning I felt that by taking Arcan Trickster could get spells above 6th level. A consideration brought up by one on another thread.
I don't understand. Why would Arcane Trickster change the spell progression? What would that look like?
I don't understand. Why would Arcane Trickster change the spell progression? What would that look like?Sighs I had the, apparently false, idea that a prestige class could do that for some reason if one has the right setup.
A mistake on my end, my apologies.
You can still go Arcane Trickster with Eldritch Scoundrel, but you are just trading BAB for Sneak Attack, Rogue talents and Debilitating Injury for AT abilities. Spell progression remains unchanged.
I remember considering VMC Magus with Eldritch Scoundrel a while back. You get Spellstrike and Magus discoveries, which can nab you Prescient Attack (opponent is flat-footed against following attacks with a swift action). Never did a feat breakdown to determine what I was losing, but could be interesting.
Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Scoundrel are both great options, but they go in opposite directions and don't mix well. This can be seen most strongly in combat, where an Arcane Trickster will play more like a Wizard and focus on casting spells whereas an Eldritch Scoundrel will play like a Rogue and focus on flanking. Arcane Trickster's poor BAB is very harmful to an Eldritch Scoundrel's combat abilities. Meanwhile the Eldritch Scoundrel's 6-level progression makes it poorly suited to Arcane Trickster, which wants to be throwing out higher-level spells with greater frequency. They're both great alternatives for creating thematically similar characters with very different mechanical strengths.
If you want to use Arcane Trickster, take 3 levels of Wizard, 1 level of Rogue, and the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat. This will let you qualify for Arcane Trickster early and be only one level behind a single-class Wizard for spellcasting and one level behind a single-class Rogue for sneak attack. The big disadvantage is that you'll have an atrocious base attack bonus, but as a (nearly) full caster this doesn't matter much since you'll be spending your time in combat casting spells instead of making attacks.
The Eldritch Scoundrel is a significantly better choice for combat, both with higher base attack progression and finesse training to get reliable damage (sadly there's not much reason to use it in PFS, since without finesse training it's completely outclassed by the Bard). It's not the best 6-level caster out there, but its unique list of abilities gives it a niche that makes it the best fit for a lot of concepts. In particular you want the Vanishing Trick, which functionally allows you to spontaneously convert 1st level spell slots into quickened vanish.
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Hmm, how well do you all feel the True Professional combines with Eldritch Scoundrel?
With this, the understanding it this will pretty much pushes the character into more of a support then combat role. Also the fact both effect the Rogue's Sneak Attack, one slowing the progression while the other replaces Sneak Attack with feats. It would get the character back up to 8 + Int skill points per level, which is nice I feel.
Admittedly it is risky, giving up Sneak Attack completely, but there is still the fact it gets six levels of spells with its skill monkey abilities intact.
but there is still the fact it gets six levels of spells with its skill monkey abilities intact.
No it doesn't; it only gets cantrips and 1st level spells, and you only get your first cantrip for free and need to pay a Rogue talent for each subsequent one.
This looks vastly inferior to the Eldritch Scoundrel.
No, no. You misunderstand. I mean combine the archetypes True Professional and Eldritch Scoundrel.
These archetypes are not compatible. Eldritch Scoundrel modifies the Sneak Attack class feature, while True Professional replaces it.
My personal problem with that trail of thought is that if you break open the "break a rule and hope the GM is okay with it" can of worms, it's very easy to quickly spiral into a chaotic mess of too-powerful interactions.
But, then again, we're already dealing with third-party for that archetype anyway.
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More like bend a rule, and really this isn't a case where two archetypes both replace the same class feature but where one modifies how often one gets Sneak Attack and the other swaps Sneak Attacks with a feats.
"The eldritch scoundrel doesn’t acquire the sneak attack class feature until 3rd level, when she gains a +1d6 sneak attack. This increases by 1d6 at 7th level, and again at every 4 rogue levels thereafter.
This modifies the rogue’s normal sneak attack progression."]
"A true professional gains a bonus feat at 1st level, plus another one at 3rd, and every two levels thereafter. The true professional may choose any feat for which she qualifies.
This replaces sneak attack."
The Rogue gains, by default, Sneak Attack at 1st level, again at 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter.
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So, the way it would be balanced and worked out is that the character would get a bonus feat at 3rd level, and then again every 4th level. It is a very easy fix.
The way I look at it, if a player has a concept that doesn't exactly work by RAW, yet with a slight modification can work, a DM should be allowed to consider whether or not they should say no. If it isn't something that breaks the game or effects balance to any strong degree, I would say sure.
Of course I would add the condition that if such a modification causes problems or makes the game less fun, it can be disallowed in between sessions. If it is a small thing, I ask why not? As long as everyone is okay with the DM's willingness to allow the change there shouldn't be an issue.
I believe players should be allowed to try their concepts as long as they aren't doing it to minimax or munchkin, and it doesn't unbalance the game or make it less fun for others. If it makes sense, can be properly explained or justified, developed, and enriches the story I says sure.
... but that is simply my view on the issue.
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The choices available now are more plentiful than they were when I wrote the guide. You can be an unchained rogue 1/wiz 3, and enter the class at 4th, now. That's a different animal.
I think that's a good thing. I still like the AT in all its possible forms. Same attitude, different mechanics, make it your own. The scoundrel gives you even more options for a sneaky caster.
I'm playing a trickster now, in fact. Still enjoy the heck out of 'em.
Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Scoundrel are both great options, but they go in opposite directions and don't mix well. This can be seen most strongly in combat, where an Arcane Trickster will play more like a Wizard and focus on casting spells whereas an Eldritch Scoundrel will play like a Rogue and focus on flanking. Arcane Trickster's poor BAB is very harmful to an Eldritch Scoundrel's combat abilities. Meanwhile the Eldritch Scoundrel's 6-level progression makes it poorly suited to Arcane Trickster, which wants to be throwing out higher-level spells with greater frequency. They're both great alternatives for creating thematically similar characters with very different mechanical strengths.
If you want to use Arcane Trickster, take 3 levels of Wizard, 1 level of Rogue, and the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat. This will let you qualify for Arcane Trickster early and be only one level behind a single-class Wizard for spellcasting and one level behind a single-class Rogue for sneak attack. The big disadvantage is that you'll have an atrocious base attack bonus, but as a (nearly) full caster this doesn't matter much since you'll be spending your time in combat casting spells instead of making attacks.
One key choice with multiclassing is the trait Magical Knack. It raises one of your classes' Caster Level for effects. Combine that with the Above and you can have a Level 19 Caster with still high sneak attack.
The real thing is whether you want physical(unchained rogue), part magic-part physical(eldritch scoundrel), or mostly magic(arcane Trickster).
The real benefit is that the Arcane Trickster has unique abilities to make it a magical sniper. Use a Sneak Attack+Fireball
One key choice with multiclassing is the trait Magical Knack.
Absolutely a great trait choice, and if you're not taking any other magical traits you should definitely take that one. However, since you're only getting +1 caster level out of Magical Knack I would say it gets steep competition from Magical Lineage, which can pay off superbly if there's one spell you frequently use with metamagic.
Personally I would much rather have something like Focuses Mind which is much more useful at any point than highly specific and poorly scaling traits like Magical Lineage or Knack.