| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Don't really know how I want to go about this but her goes. The Eldest could theoretically have a presence in taldor as various minor cults. The same can be said for demons,daemons and devils.
EtG
I would be surprised if Demons and Devils DIDN'T have a presence in any nation of significant size as various minor cults. I would say the same for Daemons and Eldest, except we never seem to hear much of them, almost as if they just weren't all that able to get their influence into Golarion, despite their general intentions.
But with the various noble houses, political factions and magic schools you could see aspects of the Eldest and Daemons with some minor influence.
EtG
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The only Daemonic cults I can recall are among the Urdefhan and Corosbel in the Riverlands.
|
^This probably depends upon actual actions by Galt. Right now, Qadira and Cheliax have serious track records of causing harm to Taldor, but Galt doesn't except indirectly by way of Cheliax (the same as is true for Andoran, by the way). Now, if somebody in Galt does something really crazy and attacks Taldor, all that could change. Of course, an additional problem for Taldor (even in response to something like this) is that if they get into a war on their northern and/or western fronts, they have to worry about getting stabbed in the back by Qadira.
A plausible Inner Sea Regional War scenario is one in which Cheliax and Andoran get into war with each other (could be started by either side, or even ignited by a non-state actor, as in World War I on Earth), and Taldor attacks Andoran to try to take what they can for themselves (possibly after trying unsuccessfully to force Andoran into accepting aid against Cheliax that has too high a price), and then Qadira sees this as an opportunity to hit Taldor (as they did once before), nevermind the wishes of the empire they are part of.
I wasn't talking about a possible war scenario but rather about the nation that actually is Taldor's foil in terms of philosophy and "character".
Taldor is a nation ruled by a (mostly) decadent aristocracy.
Galt is a nation ruled by a self appointed (and ever changing) revolutionary committee, and in fact it's actually ruled by anarchy.
In that respect Taldor and Galt oppose each other much more than Taldor and Quadira (old grudges from old wars) and Cheliax (an ancient betrayal that caused Taldor to lose its empire).
A lot of Galtans hate nobles and want to decapitate them. Taldor's nobles know this and also know they constitute a very small minority of privileged people in a land full of dirt poor commoners and serfs. It's understandable then that taldan nobles won't sleep easily as Galtans preach bloody revolution against nobles everywhere and especially along their borders.
Edit: btw I don't think Taldor is much likely to attack Andoran in case it goes to war against Cheliax. Taldor is literally surrounded by enemies: Galt on the north, Quadira on the south, the savage lands of Iobaria on the east. The only nation they have a decent, if jaded relationship with is Andoran. Taldan rulers may feel Andoran is part of their empire and should return to them but most of them know full well they don't have the power to bring it back into the fold and attacking would cause more harm than good. besides they do hate Cheliax more than they hate Andoran by a wide margin, so I think they could even suggest an alliance with Andoran in exchange for political concessions. This of course changes when individual nobles and their personal armies are involved: it's more than likely a few of the more belligerant ones (or idiotic, or both) would try to seize lands from Andoran if given half a chance, Taldor's interests be damned.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
^Philosophically, Andoran is fairly opposed to Taldor -- Andoran has rule by the people through representative government, while Taldor -- like the decadent empires in Central Europe leading up to World War I -- is ruled by decadent aristocrats who rule dirt poor commoners and serfs with an iron fist (or at least try to). Although Andoran is not anywhere near as Chaotic as Galt, it is far more competent, and works hard at exporting its ideology of freedom and equality and therefore is at least potentially the greater threat. Andoran is no friend of Taldor, and canonically, Taldor still sees Andoran as rightfully part of itself, and border skirmishes do occur.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
^Philosophically, Andoran is fairly opposed to Taldor -- Andoran has rule by the people through representative government, while Taldor -- like the decadent empires in Central Europe leading up to World War I -- is ruled by decadent aristocrats who rule dirt poor commoners and serfs with an iron fist (or at least try to). Although Andoran is not anywhere near as Chaotic as Galt, it is far more competent, and works hard at exporting its ideology of freedom and equality and therefore is at least potentially the greater threat. Andoran is no friend of Taldor, and canonically, Taldor still sees Andoran as rightfully part of itself, and border skirmishes do occur.
To me Taldor and Andoran's relationship seems more like something comparable to UK and USA relationship after the american revolution. Sure they didn't like each other much but they kept their ties alive.
With Andoran and Taldor they may not like each other much, but they like other nations even less. Taldor rulers might feel Andoran is still part of their empire (no doubt they feel the same about Cheliax, Galt and maybe even Lastwall) but at the moment they need a decent relationship with them, so if a local baron decides to raid the neighbouring Andoren estates the central taldan government will most probably avoid giving him direct support. Same goes for Andoran to an extent: they have a sort of cold war going on with Cheliax, war on 2 fronts with 2 nations of comparable military strength to them is not in their best interest, luckily for Andoran, Taldor dislikes Cheliax much more than them (the enemy of my enemy and all that)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To me Taldor and Andoran's relationship seems more like something comparable to UK and USA relationship after the american revolution. Sure they didn't like each other much but they kept their ties alive.
Remember the War of 1812? It would have gotten a LOT worse if not for the major ocean separating the two major countries (and was bad enough already, what with the land border between the US and Canada -- Andoran and Taldor don't have an ocean buffer between them, so it would be as if the UK and US had a land border between them in 1812, without having to go through the intermediate step of Canada).
With Andoran and Taldor they may not like each other much, but they like other nations even less. Taldor rulers might feel Andoran is still part of their empire (no doubt they feel the same about Cheliax, Galt and maybe even Lastwall) but at the moment they need a decent relationship with them, so if a local baron decides to raid the neighbouring Andoren estates the central taldan government will most probably avoid giving him direct support. Same goes for Andoran to an extent: they have a sort of cold war going on with Cheliax, war on 2 fronts with 2 nations of comparable military strength to them is not in their best interest, luckily for Andoran, Taldor dislikes Cheliax much more than them (the enemy of my enemy and all that)
Most often, the enemy of my enemy is not my friend, but just another enemy.
And the deal ("German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact" = Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact and German–Soviet Frontier Treaty) between Hitler and Stalin in the beginning of World War II to divide Poland also comes to mind . . . Of course, the subsequent history this does point out that if Cheliax and Taldor did go this route and then divided Andoran between them, one of them would likely do something stupid and attack the other after a few years . . . .
-War of 1812 was actually an byproduct of UK and France's wars. And Canada WAS a colony of the UK at the time. Sure, if Andoran and Taldor were to go to war things could turn ugly pretty quickly since both of them have "wolves at the door" (Cheliax for Andoran, Quadira and Galt for Taldor). Fact is, for those very reasons, I don't think a war between Andoran and Taldor would be likely unless something completely idiotic happens on one side or the other (or someone tries to manipulate events... which could be a good starting point for a campaign focused on intrigue).
-German and Soviet non aggression pact was actually a brilliant move from the nazis and an idiotic one from the russians. Germany didn't want a war on 2 fronts but their hate for the USSR was extemely explicit (in Mein Kampf Hitler wrote the slavic peoples were to be subjugated and used as slaves by the Reik because they were untermensch). When they defeated France they believed the UK would accept defeat and join them against the russians, for that very reason the Nazis allowed the defeated British Expeditionary Force to escape at Dunkirk. Hitler miscalculated that move though, in his madness he believed 2 "aryan peoples" were naturally to band together against the bolsheviks... when he realized the war in the west was not over he decided to open the eastern front anyway, and that's a big part of the reason Germany lost WWII, along with a score of other bad decisions like the prolonged siege of Stalingrad. That said I don't think Taldor and Cheliax are comparable in any way to Germany and the USSR. Taldor for one has an allignment of Neutral and is far from united under a bloody tyrant who can command the masses with absolute power.
Moving on, I believe the topic about Taldor and Magic is completely unexplored yet.
In a passage about the cult of Nethys I suggested Taldor has no real magical academies and instead has "lines" of magic users.
For obvious reasons this works very well for sorcerers but it can also work for wizards: in their case to be taken as apprentice by a wizard means to be "adopted" into his (or her) line.
This I believe would give Taldan magic a different feel from most other countries in the Inner Sea and actually mesh together well with Taldor's character as a nation that gives a lot of importance to lineages and ancestry.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would be surprised if Demons and Devils DIDN'T have a presence in any nation of significant size as various minor cults. I would say the same for Daemons and Eldest, except we never seem to hear much of them, almost as if they just weren't all that able to get their influence into Golarion, despite their general intentions.
Agreed. Though in particular I could see some demon lords like Socothbenoth having a particularly influential presence in Taldor. Nobles with hidden shrines in secret rooms, meetings in the dark of night with hooded robes to engage in horrible acts of... whatever. For nobles who've grown tired of more typical decadencies.
Another aspect of Taldor in need of further development is how crime works and what place it has in Taldan society. Brotherhood of Silence, based in Oppara, is said to be one of the largest thieves guilds in all of the Inner Sea Region but lacks any development. Any ideas on how to give it more character?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
^Wow, we really seem to be short on information on this group. Anyone know if the recent Villain Codex has anything on them? Or is the Villain Codex not specific enough to various parts of the Campaign Setting?
I think the best idea so far is in Gnoll Bard's post that includes Norgorber -- the Brotherhood of Silence is Taldor's blend of Norgorber's ideology with the machinations of Oppara's decadent aristocracy.
It might be a decent idea, in that case, to take inspiration from the Court of Owls in moderately recent Batman stuff. Obviously, it would be different, but some elements could be rather similar.
^Wow, we really seem to be short on information on this group. Anyone know if the recent Villain Codex has anything on them? Or is the Villain Codex not specific enough to various parts of the Campaign Setting?
The VC is 100% setting neutral. Which makes things a little bit weird because everything ends up having generic names but that's another topic. The thieves' guild in that book is pretty standard, but still something decent enough to steal ideas from.
Since Taldor doesn't seem to be a focus development wise, I've chosen to make my own Taldor centric Adventure Path. This thread definitely shows me that their is a least some interest.Keep us posted. Will this be something you will be putting together before running a campaign, or something you create on the fly? PbP or campaign journal by any chance?
Okay so I have developed the framework for the Fan created Adventure Path and a storyboard.
Im going to put it on another thread.
Taldor part 2
Military Factions
Taldan Phalanx- Mostly made up of free citizens of low to mid-level wealth.
Taldan Horse- Made of upper class citizens of decent means.
Prefecture Guard- Made up of citizens with either political means or financial means but made of particularly patriotic and driven individuals.
Noble Houses- Loyal to their employers and fiercely protective of them.
Mercenary Forces- Mostly used by merchant concerns but with the occasional use by both prefecture forces and National forces.
Social Factors
Slavery- Exists but is not overly prominent except in the southern prefectures.
Serfdom- Also exists but is only prevalent in the heavily agricultural prefectures.
Freebond- The majority of the population outside the previous 2 groups, found in the military in large amounts.
Beaurocratic- Made up of people form the previous 3 classes and the nobility.
Nobility- One of the smaller social groups but still a large group compared to other nations. Found in the Taldan horse, Prefecture Guard, merchant houses and religious groups.
@ Eldred: My 2 cents where my opinions differ with yours.
Military factions
Noble Houses: Varies greatly on the size of the House and the lord's personality and means. Some might have just a few armigers and ill equipped pesant levy while other more powerful nobles might field vast armies able to rival or possibly surpass even the Grand Prince if they shouldchoose to rebel. Enche the need from the Grand Prince to keep an eye on them and play the major Houses against each other least they ally themselves against him.
Social Factors
Slavery: It exists but it's theoretically illegal. In practice powerful people can get away with it without calling it slavery. It's not widespread and it can be a source of social scandal if discovered enche the need for those who practice it to keep it under wraps and its potential as a source of blackmail. Of course a rural noble in his own fief can get away with basically anything as long as he doesn't anger someone more powerful than himself (or a bunch of well intentioned murder hoboes passing by...)
Nobility: All of the above but the largest part of the noble class is still poor. A knight may be "noble" but if he lacks lands and the proper means to carry himself, his station actually means little. There's a lot of second and third sons and daughters "employing" their talents to more powerful members of the aristocratic class for a place to stay and hope of improving their station.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A thing I think needs to be adressed with Taldor is corruption and what it means in the context of a fantasy world.
What I mean is this: in your standard "fantasy kingdom" brigands kidnap the noble's daughter, the PCs ride out in the wild, defeat the bandits and save the princess. The grateful noble hails them as heroes and then rewards them leisurely.
In a nation where corruption is widespread and ingrained into the system things can do very differently though.
Bandits kidnap the noble's daughter, the PCs ride out in the wild, fight them and save the noble's daughter. They come back but the nobleman, while publicly praising them is actually livid. He had his daughter "kidnapped" by mercenaries in the employ of one his neighbours. Together the two nobles hoped to pin the supposed kindnapping on a third nobleman who they would for breaking the peace getting royal permission to wage war upon their rival, then taking away his lands from him. By "saving" the noble's daughter, the PCs have unwittingly foiled the plan and caused the 2 noblemen ire and they start to plan their revenge possibly trying to use the PCs to further the fall of their rival.
TL, DR: In short, I believe in a land like Taldor things should look one way while often being very different. Taldor is neutral, so there's good people, bad people and neutral people all over, yet the way allignments interact in a land like this should be very different (and sometimes funny) compared to other nations in Golarion.
Well with Taldor getting a new book, hopefully it will both add more background but also answer a few of the factors from this thread.
Worship. Of Sarenrae was originally written to be outlawed in Taldor, this has been ignored in later books almost retconnned by omission, but several PFS scenarios have that as a premise, so they couldn't completely retcon it.
Unless it's officially illegal, but the central government has so little power over the outlying parts of the nation that the law is openly flouted. If the Sarenrites provide free healing and the like, many people may well support and protect them without joining the faith.
Actually the ban on Sarenrae faith has been adressed and it has NOT been completely retconned out of the blue with no explanation. In short the faith had been banned during older times, under specific Grand Princes but currently it's not illegal anymore because other Grand Princes "reconciled" with the faith. There's still diffidence in a good part of the population though
(I believe this information was provided in "Inner Sea Temples" but I'd need to check in order to be sure and I can't do that right now)