Interest Check - Higher Level Gestalt AP


Recruitment

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Well poo, Any other GMs want to take up the idea?


Fury of the Tempest wrote:

... Yeah. Here's hoping we actually get someone willing to do what they said they'll do.

I tried PvP before, and it failed abysmally. Got kicked out of the arena because they couldn't accept the fact I called them out on their s@%~ (Asked for help, got no help, got curb stomped in a match, got told my build was s*@&)

That doesn't seem like you were unfairly treated - there isn't much point in pvp if you need other people make your build for you.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I am not interested in PvP.
Have fun.


Burnscar wrote:
Fury of the Tempest wrote:

... Yeah. Here's hoping we actually get someone willing to do what they said they'll do.

I tried PvP before, and it failed abysmally. Got kicked out of the arena because they couldn't accept the fact I called them out on their s@%~ (Asked for help, got no help, got curb stomped in a match, got told my build was s*@&)

That doesn't seem like you were unfairly treated - there isn't much point in pvp if you need other people make your build for you.

Uh, no.

There is a big difference between 'Hey guys, can you suggest a build for me!' and 'Hey guys, here's the build I have currently. Any pointers?'

I got treated like dirt, there's nothing more to be said.


I would love it if someone else took up the GM mantle for this.


Yeah, i've done a PvP before on Pbp... not too fond of that. I would be happy to find another GM if Fury doesn't want to do this game.


I really want to try a Unchained Monk//Empyreal Sorcerer.


ReZa here is a Bard/Mesmerizer.


I'm interested I like high level and gestalt. Up for any AP.


I am not interested in PVP either.


Yea. I was interested in the original concept, but not the arena thing.


I would love to see if we could get a new DM
I would also love to have the option to roll dice for scores.


ReZa Furskin wrote:
Yeah, i've done a PvP before on Pbp... not too fond of that. I would be happy to find another GM if Fury doesn't want to do this game.

You mean if Chess doesn't want to do the game, right?

I have no GMing experience...

Dark Archive

Guys, I'd honestly not hold my breath for this... I've been playing BPB in these boards for over a year and I've NEVER seen a high level gestalt game actually work. Most of them don't pass the recruitment phase and those who do, generally die in a month or so.

From time to time, the recruitment board pops with this gestalt, tristalt, high level game... it is like a condition... it simply happens from time to time, and it never goes far. Seriously, it has been a pastime to look into these recruitments with many eager players and seeing it fumbles into nothing. I've even thought about pointing this out during the recruitment but decided not so since I could upset the OP.

To be honest, it is not actually surprising that these games don't work. Every time I see gestalt builds, it is the same 'who has the most powerful build contest' and generally good GMs run from this as the devil runs from the cross.

GMing a game is not easy, even if an AP makes things easier. Homebrew is also pretty hard since it requires a lot of planning and time, and should be reserved for experienced GMs. Starting an AP at higher level AND gestalt, practically turns an AP into a homebrew, which means lots and lots of work.

IMO the whole concept of gestalt throws away much of the fun... it might look fun to run a powerful PC but trust me, soon enough it will become a competition of who is the most powerful. In a regular game, everyone has its limitations and this makes the game enjoying... when everyone is almighty, what is the point? I know for sure that I'll never run a gestalt high-powered game.


I have to disagree with you Sir Longears. Whilst I agree that high-level gestalt games are rare, and far between. I would not say they are guaranteed to die a quick death. Indeed, I know of some Epic Homebrew Gestalt games that I have been part of and are still going, if albeit slowly.

I will admit, that the challenge of running such a game is tricky, and not one that everyone will be able to do. And should most definitely be reserved for experienced GMs alone. However, that does not mean it is impossible. And it does not mean that when it comes to gestalt, people always fall into a 'who has the most powerful build' contest.

You argue that gestalt throws away much of the fun of the game, because it removes the limitations that the game puts in place. That if everyone is powerful, then there is no fun to be had. I fully disagree. No matter what you do with a gestalt build, no matter how well you build it. There will always be limitations. There will always be strengths and weaknesses that the DM can note and use to make strong challenges towards specific party members.

Gestalt isn't perfect, not by any means. But it is a fantastic system, that allows people much greater flexibility when it comes to both builds and themes. Whilst it raises the optimisation ceiling, it always raises the floor, making it easier for people to take what others would call bad choices, and actually make the build function well, instead of simply languishing behind the others.

In the end. Gestalt is simply another tool for a DM to use. A complicated and difficult one yes. But still, just another tool for the DM to use. The success of a game comes down to how well they use it and understand it.


There are a few gestalt games on this forum that got past page 10 of gameplay. Most never got that far.

I'm reluctant to infer any particular reason, I note that most games in general do not get very far. GM and or player burnout is common.

Still gestalt is a major hike in power level and APs are generally written assuming the standard 4 players with a 15 pt build. Obviously that is by no means an insurmountable problem however it does mean every combat encounter needs modifications. Maybe that makes no difference, the GM surely knows that. Perhaps it's just because gestalt games are unusual it's not surprising only a few of them got anywhere.


Here is the reason I like Gestalt: It makes more fully flushed out characters. Yes it is a spike in the powerlevels so to speak but it gives more options for your character.
Are you a Ranger Druid? A watchmen of the forest with real magical might to back up your claims of protection?
Are you a Paladin Bard who does more than sing for his god, instead he brings but light, love, and wrath all in one.


One issue is that there are multiple ways to build gestalt.

One way is to build for breadth. This expands your possible options and is very useful for small parties or adventures where the characters are under constant pressure and don't have a lot of opportunities to rest.

The other is to make two classes that synergize well and reinforce each other's abilities. By stacking different types of bonuses from different classes, you can create very strong specialists. This is useful in medium to large parties with normal AP-style dungeons.

Naturally, this is two ends of a spectrum and many characters will fall in between. GM's should encourage building towards one end or another, and state that at the beginning. If the style of the game doesn't match that of the party, it can be a problem.


I've been thinking about this one and hoping it would get going. Now I check it a couple of weeks later finding this.

I have an idea however. A small gestalt party might be something that could try their might against a mega dungeon type of game like ES or RA. My current S&S campaign seems to be running smoothly and I think i could run something like this also. Wouldn't start so high a level though. Maybe 4 or 5. I'll have to make sure i can do it and get the book/pdf but I'll probably post an interest check this weekend.

Sovereign Court

If you do decide to undertake this endeavor could you please put a link to your interest check on this one so that those of us who are still interested can get there without having to sift through the all of the other pages to find it?


I managed to run a gestalt group through Academy of Secrets. One group, I started with two and the other broke apart because of brokenly powerful characters. The one team finished one module but didn't make it through Iron Medusa. Not sure why they bailed, but interest just flagged.

Gestalt can result in some broken as hell builds. You need to keep a damned tight leash on things, and you really need to try to make sure all the character builds are on the same page or you will have either bored gods in part of the party and challenged others, or interested gods, and grease stains.

The ability to synergize broken as hell combinations is already powerful at high level just by mixing classes normally, when you can gestalt them, the potential for abuse increases exponentially.

This is not to say I would mind playing in such, but as for the GM, well I pity da fool unless he really knows what he is in for.


I've found that gestalt games can help when you have a lack of players. Like the shattered star game I'm playing IRL, we only have 2 players and a GM, so three gestalt characters about takes care of everything. There are a bit of Action Economy issues, when the number of actions you can take is still limited no matter how many class features you have.


Yeah what drbuzzard said. You're going to need to be really careful, e.g. stuff like this: tempered champion paladin / dawnflower dervish bard. Thematically that makes perfect sense: a warrior poet, a champion of Saranrae, but combat bonuses are astronomical and it'll be amazing in social situations too. Even with a 15pt buy it would be awesome (only really needs cha and dex).


One of the biggest things people seem to forget when it comes to Gestalt and Tristalt is you still only have the same number of actions per turn.

Sure, you may be able to do 7 different standard actions, but you only get one a turn. Pick what suits or is best for the moment.

I've been in a few high level gestalt games, here on the boards and in IRL, using both 3.x and PF, and really the only time things get even sort of nuts is when we have any sort of pre-buff time.

But, that's also the exact same for single class games.

Yes, you need to really and truly plan ahead for encounters, and I wouldn't even wanna attempt running a gestalt AP(personally), but its not that incredibly difficult to pull off.


Yeah, that's the main limitation of most builds, and what most really powerful builds aim to get around. There is nothing more powerful than breaking the action economy. And it doesn't matter how strong you are, or how powerful you are. If you can hit someone else once, and the other guy can hit then ten times in the same space of time...

The other guy is likely going to be able to win the battle.


Oh, Monkeygod, not all combinations require lots of actions. I had a character similar to the one that Fang Dragon mentioned. Urban Barbarian/Dawnflower Dervish.

At 11th level, by spending a swift and free action she could get +9 to hit and damage, +3 to AC and Reflex, +1d6 to evil outsiders, weapons are good aligned, 20% miss chance beyond 5', a damage aura vs enemies, and a free attack with 15' reach. Of course she could only keep this up for about 30 rounds per day when doubling up. Usually over 7 battles.

When she does have time to buff, she had several options. Haste, heroic fortune, etc.


Meh.

If the GM is doing their job right, the foes will also be gestalt and badass. At least the ones who are supposed to matter.

Point is, yea, gestalt is definitely for experienced GMs only, especially attempting to run an AP with those types of characters.

Its also for experienced players as well, ones that can be trusted not to break the system just for the lulz.


I love the gestalt concept. It makes for characters more resembling those in books. They just seem more fleshed out. Plus I like options.


Basically, not a system to be casually tossed around, that's for sure.

Through I do gotta ask. Monkey, I think I've seen you DMing a few times before, you interested in running a Gestalt yourself sometime?


Monkeygod wrote:

Meh.

If the GM is doing their job right, the foes will also be gestalt and badass. At least the ones who are supposed to matter.

Point is, yea, gestalt is definitely for experienced GMs only, especially attempting to run an AP with those types of characters.

Its also for experienced players as well, ones that can be trusted not to break the system just for the lulz.

Which is why I suggested that GM's explain what they want when they set up the game. It's much better than hoping that different people's thoughts on what they want from gestalt will line up.

I'm in a tristalt game, but it's solo and the GM said that they want to makes sure that applications were very broad in what they can handle. I've been well-challenged and I'm very happy with it.


Lonk
I'm starting it at level 5.

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