Can Mavaro recharge any card at the end of his turn?


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Any card with a check to acquire, that is.

The catch-all MM thread prompted this exchange:

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Brainwave wrote:
Regarding Marvaro, I'm a little unsure on the timing of when you can use his ability to display a card and gain the appropriate skills for the rest of the turn. Can you display multiple cards for example after your last exploration, before the end of your turn? What I'm getting at is it appears that he can basically freely use that ability to recharge any unwanted cards in hand every turn, since those displayed cards are recharged at the end of the turn. Is this the case?
It would seem so. I'd say you can use it between any step of the turn and at any time having a skill is relevant. So, you could display all your cards at the start of your turn. And you could display all your cards just before the end of your turn.

At the risk of gaining the ire of every Mavaro player, this seems overpowered. "Before resetting your hand, you may recharge any number of cards" would be a useful power feat. And we're saying Mavaro basically gets it for free, as a byproduct of his main power.

I'm asking: does it work this way?
If so: should it?

We have the rule:

MM rulebook p.9 wrote:
You may not activate a power or play a card that doesn’t apply to your current situation.

Does gaining a skill apply to his situation when he is not making a check?

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Yeah I think it's pretty clear that Mavaro CAN'T do that... the rule of not activating a power if it doesn't apply to your situation means you can only display cards that give you relevant skills... as in a skill you can make use of in the given situation.

Here's a good example of why I don't think you can just display and recharge all the cards at the end of your turn... let's say you had two of the exact same card in your hand. Two Blessings of the Elements, for example. If you've already displayed one of them to gain a relevant skill, you already have Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma all equal to your Intelligence. There is absolutely no benefit you could gain from displaying another Blessing of the Elements... so then the rulebook says you can't activate that power with that card.

So yeah, as much as I love Mavaro, I don't think he can recharge any cards he wants at the end of his turn. He needs to be able to make use of the skills to display a card, IMHO.


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elcoderdude wrote:
At the risk of gaining the ire of every Mavaro player, this seems overpowered. "Before resetting your hand, you may recharge any number of cards" would be a useful power feat. And we're saying Mavaro basically gets it for free, as a byproduct of his main power.

Without comment on Mavaro, I will say that Adowyn has this ability with Leryn in Wrath, more or less.


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First World Bard wrote:


Without comment on Mavaro, I will say that Adowyn has this ability with Leryn in Wrath, more or less.

So you're saying Adowyn can examine the same card over and over, just to recharge her hand? I don't know ...


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My understanding was that the limitation on cards and powers (can only be played if relevant to the check) was only limited to encounters. For us, you can play a Cure (out of exploration/encounter of course) if there is no cards in the discards of all characters in your location (just to recharge it). But you cannot play a Lightning Bolt at that time to recharge it because it says "for your combat check" and there is no combat check to trigger it.
Mavaro's power doesn't have a trigger: it doesn't say "for your check, you can display a card that has that trait to aquire and you win and keep that new skill until the end of the turn". The way it is written, you win the skill regardless of whether you will or not use it and regardless of whether you already have the skill or not.
Thus we see no reasons why Mavaro couldn't decide to display then recharge any cards he wants just before the end of his turn.

IMHO.

Ang yes it seems an uberpowerful character. But let's wait until he finishes the whole MM story to confirm or not that feeling.


cartmanbeck wrote:
Yeah I think it's pretty clear that Mavaro CAN'T do that... the rule of not activating a power if it doesn't apply to your situation means you can only display cards that give you relevant skills... as in a skill you can make use of in the given situation.

If you follow this logic you'd never be able to cast Cure at all, since it's never (directly) relevant to any situation. As Frencois said that only applies during an encounter (i.e. only when there's something to consider the relevance *to*).

While I agree this seems a little cheesy, it's not completely out of line with other characters. There's many who can recharge cards they don't want very easily. Lem for instance, especially when you go out of your way to add bonuses to things which don't really need them. Maybe all the others come with a limit, but "recharge literally your entire hand" is not substantially more useful than "recharge the bad cards almost as often as you need to".


Irgy wrote:
If you follow this logic you'd never be able to cast Cure at all, since it's never (directly) relevant to any situation.

Casting Cure is relevant whenever a character has cards in their discard pile. Can you cast Cure on a character who does not need healing? My understanding is you can't. I think this came up in a forum discussion, but I can't currently find it.

Irgy wrote:
As Frencois said that only applies during an encounter (i.e. only when there's something to consider the relevance *to*).

This is the point in dispute. The rule I cited is in the "Playing Cards" section, which precedes the "Encountering A Card" section. So it would seem it always applies.


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jones314 wrote:
First World Bard wrote:


Without comment on Mavaro, I will say that Adowyn has this ability with Leryn in Wrath, more or less.
So you're saying Adowyn can examine the same card over and over, just to recharge her hand? I don't know ...

Adowyin is the poster child of the "recharge your hand for free" powers... or at least she was, pre-Mavaro.

elcoderdude wrote:

We have the rule:

MM rulebook p.9 wrote:
You may not activate a power or play a card that doesn’t apply to your current situation.

Does gaining a skill apply to his situation when he is not making a check?

This is no way different than when your casters cast their Speeds, or Sagacities, or Spheres outside of an encounter, just to cycle them out of their hands (You're doing that, right?).

Irgy wrote:
Maybe all the others come with a limit, but "recharge literally your entire hand" is not substantially more useful than "recharge the bad cards almost as often as you need to".

I think Irgy touches on the essence of things. People concentrate on how Mavaro can recharge his entire hand - but if you *want* to recharge his entire hand, odds are you're playing the wrong deck altogether. Now, if you focus on the fact that he can recharge all *unwanted* cards in his hands - there are plenty of other characters that already offer similar power level.

Also, from the new characters, barring the risk of a single Trigger, Zadim also can recharge his whole hand *for free*.


Longshot11 wrote:


elcoderdude wrote:

We have the rule:

MM rulebook p.9 wrote:
You may not activate a power or play a card that doesn’t apply to your current situation.

Does gaining a skill apply to his situation when he is not making a check?

This is no way different than when your casters cast their Speeds, or Sagacities, or Spheres outside of an encounter, just to cycle them out of their hands (You're doing that, right?).

Actually, I think that's against the spirit of the game, so I don't do it, but... the example I thought of while cooking breakfast is playing a spell like this before you explore. Which has long been standard practice.

Hmmm.

I have a question to the PACG Powers That Be: does the rule I cite apply outside encounters, or not?

You could say any skill COULD be relevant to my explore, so gaining it or buffing it before I explore is legal. But there is nothing relevant about gaining or buffing a skill before I end my turn (or preparing for combat before I end my turn). So Longshot's examples would be illegal too.


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elcoderdude wrote:

the example I thought of while cooking breakfast is playing a spell like this before you explore. Which has long been standard practice.

I have a question to the PACG Powers That Be: does the rule I cite apply outside encounters, or not?

I don't know if this coincides with the devs intent (though I suspect, if it didn't - they would've long ago said so), but I was just saying it's legal RAW.

As you said: before you explore, you can cast any number of displayed spells, as you don't know what you may encounter - so we know you're allowed to cast them outside of encounter. Now, let's imagine you've examined the top location card and you know there's *no way* you could possibly use the displayed spells - still, you're at the same phase of the turn, and nothing has changed where game rules are concer to disallow casting those spell. And it's the very same when you cats them at end of turn - you again know there's no benefit, but you're still allowed to do it by the mechanics of the game.

The *spirit* of the game is a nebulous thing, up to personal interpretation - you see this as *exploit*; for me, taking advantage of the ingrained mechanics of the game is not at all different from killing Skeleton with Caltrops - and we all know *that* is allowed (not because it *makes sense*, but because that's how the game mechanics interact in this particular scenario) .

Think of it that way - spells (and other cards and powers) can have several 'targets', so to speak: combat (Force Missile), checks (Aid), cards (in multiple piles/decks/states; Cure targets discarded cards - that's why I'd agree it can't be cast on empty discard pile); or none (most Display spells). Yes, displayed Speed *may* add to a Dexterity check, but a Dexterity check is not *required* to cast it (outside of an encounter, of course). It's not a bug, it's feature, RAW.

(PS: Also, I know this in not a rock-solid argument for the board game, but in the Obsidian app you are totally allowed to display spells before end of turn)


My interpretation may be too complicated to implement in the digital game. It may be too complicated to implement in the card game, too.

For example: say I've explored once, and I have a card in my hand which I can use to explore. Can I use the display buff/combat spells now? What if then I don't explore? It's rare that an action in the game is legal only if another action then follows it (I can think of one example: you can only play Rage during a combat check if the character you play it on then uses its power).

And I thought of another counterexample: cohorts. You display some cohorts on the very first turn, which doesn't even have to be your turn. It can't be right that Balazar has to keep Padrig in his hand and potentially lose him to an off-turn handwipe.

Still, I'd appreciate an official clarification of the rule I cite. It seems to be contradicted by these examples.


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I too see this as very similar to the spells like Speed/Agility, Glibness/Eloquence and Strength/(well, I guess just Strength).

I will say, speaking as someone who maybe through the gasoline on this fire, I can see an argument that you can't display a card to gain a skill you've already gained. If I have displayed a spell that allowed me to gain Intelligence, Arcane, Wisdom and Divine, I can't display a card that will grant me Wisdom and Divine, since I already have those skills.

But I really don't see how an argument could be made that he shouldn't be able to display a card to gain a skill he doesn't use, whether you knew he wouldn't use it or not. Your future plans don't really have an impact on what you are allowed to do. And even that rule about your "current situation" doesn't offer much insight, because it is about the "current" situation, not your future plans. If we were to say you can't gain a skill because you aren't making a check in your current situation, then how can you play Strength if you aren't using Strength in your current situation. Does adding 3 to your Strength really apply to the current situation any more than defining what your Strength is? I think they both apply to the current situation because the character has skills and is effecting those skills.

Which is why I might say you can't gain a skills you've already gained. The card you display should grant you new skills. Gaining a skill you've already gained have doesn't effect anything, so it doesn't apply to the current situation.


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I'd play it as Hawkmoon said (can't get the same skill twice), if only because it makes more sense thematically to me. Similarly, I played Adowyn with a rule that I had to examine new cards; if I already knew all the cards I was examining then I couldn't do it. I've never even considered playing Cure on someone with an empty discard, but I'd disallow that at my table as well. The powers you use should change the game state in some way beyond just using the cost of the power as the end goal of it. I'd allow Mavaro and cards like Strength and Sagacity at the end of the turn because playing them does directly impact game state beyond their cost (display/discard/recharge), and so I view such powers as always relevant.

This post may be relevant to this discussion.


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Well I see sense in all the previous comments. But just to explain where we come from (until as usual proven guilty by Vic or Mike).
A) after long discussion Vic made it clear for WotR and before that one of the fun part of Sagacity like spells was that you had to decide to play it or not before the encounter (if you want to be able to play an attack spell during the combat). So definitively unless the rules were changed for MM you can play cards that might affect checks even if no check is asked for if 1) it is not during an encounter and 2) the card doesn't clearly say a check must be asked for for the card to be playes (i. e. no "for your blablabla check..." text).
So from a ruling point of view we say Mavaro can display any card any time out of encounters without restriction as long as the card list at least one skill to aquire.
B) thematically coming from RPG: OK when you fight you cannot spend time doing funky things like passing items from one guy to another. Hence the during encounter limitation. But when there is no time pressure, you can always in the RPG cast a cure even if the target is already at full Health. So I can't really share skizzerz point that playing a card with no effect (like if Mavaro already has all skill involved) should be prohibited, unless clearly stated in the rules (like immunities).

Until proven guilty...


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Frencois wrote:
But when there is no time pressure, you can always in the RPG cast a cure even if the target is already at full Health.

By that logic, you can also cast Force Missile at the sky, or bash at the nearby rock with your Crowbar... Just saying :)


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I think Force Missile is more generally used to attack the darkness.


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Longshot11 wrote:
Frencois wrote:
But when there is no time pressure, you can always in the RPG cast a cure even if the target is already at full Health.
By that logic, you can also cast Force Missile at the sky, or bash at the nearby rock with your Crowbar... Just saying :)

Don't have the card in front of me but doesn't Force Missile say "for your combat check" and crowbar is reveal "to add to a check". Thus you cannot play them out of a check. Which is not the case for Cure, Merchant or Sagacity. The whole point is that Mavaro's power is written like the ones of Cure, Merchant or Sagacity and not like the ones of Crowbar or Force Missile.

With your logic (that you can only play a power if it has an effect), I wouldn't be able to give a card (at my give step or via a Merchant) to another character if he has no immediate use of it? Or I wouldn't have the right to play a card to move if I hadn't something to do right after?
Mavaro can display a card even with no immediate effect for the purpose of having a long time one (recharge): it's the same as moving or giving or plenty of other things you can do even with no immediate effect.
Still not convinced IMHO.


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Hawkmoon269 wrote:
I think Force Missile is more generally used to attack the darkness.

Force missile is used to pretend you are a Jedi even if you lack the lightthingy.


OK, I'm hearing a consensus that, outside of an encounter, you can display a card which grants a skill or the ability to use a power, and you can do that at any time, as long as it has a game effect. (If displaying the card has no effect whatsoever, you can't do it.)

I'm assuming we agree that during an encounter such an action is more constrained, and must pertain directly to the step. You couldn't cast Brilliance just to get it out of your hand so you don't take it as damage, nor could Mavaro display cards for the same reason.

I think the rules need to be clarified, because this interpretation means we are saying such an action, by definition, always "applies to your current situation", while at the same time does not necessarily "relate to [the current] step".


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As you say : Mavaro can't display during an encounter unless the skill he wins affects the check (directly, without having to play another card on non passive power), so he cannot do that to avoid losing cards as damage.
But he can always display a card (as long as there is at least on skill in the aquire box) out of an encounter. End of turn not being an exception. Just like Sagacity (that I usually keep in my hand until the end of my turn in case someone needs it, but then I play it just to recharge it). IMHO.

And the fact that playing the card has no game effect also can be argued... you play it to de facto recharge it, in order to draw a new one. That's a game effect. If I couldn't do that, why could I discard cards before rebuilding my hand (which is clearly allowed by the rules)? Still IMHO.

Nice weekly can of worms. Waiting for Vic.


Frencois wrote:
And the fact that playing the card has no game effect also can be argued... you play it to de facto recharge it, in order to draw a new one. That's a game effect. If I couldn't do that, why could I discard cards before rebuilding my hand (which is clearly allowed by the rules)?

My language is inadequate, but we are still aiming at fulfilling the rule that playing a card or using a power has to apply to your current situation. The actual playing of the card has to do this -- not the side effect of the disposing of the card.

As for the last point -- um, are you serious? The rules explicitly specify you can do that. That's not playing a card or using a power.


Frencois wrote:
My understanding was that the limitation on cards and powers (can only be played if relevant to the check) was only limited to encounters. For us, you can play a Cure (out of exploration/encounter of course) if there is no cards in the discards of all characters in your location (just to recharge it).

For what it's worth, in the Obsidian App, you can't cast Cure on a character that doesn't have cards in his discard...

... and you can examine the same card over and over, recharging/using whatever card you have that lets you do it...

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MuffinB wrote:
... and you can examine the same card over and over, recharging/using whatever card you have that lets you do it...

Sure. Cards don't have memory. They can't know if you're examining a card that you've already examined.


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James McKendrew wrote:
MuffinB wrote:
... and you can examine the same card over and over, recharging/using whatever card you have that lets you do it...
Sure. Cards don't have memory. They can't know if you're examining a card that you've already examined.

Cards don't have memories but players do. I'd view examining the same card repeatedly the same as searching your deck for a nonexistent cohort (see my link above). Perhaps if you place examined cards face-down again that would be fine, but I just leave them face-up so you can always just look at their powers.


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Oof, in this thread, I argued that Alahazra could keep examining the same card over and over. Then, reading Hawkmoon's reasoning and listening to people I play with, it seemed like a card can only get scouted over and over if something else is happening in between. Now I'm not sure ...


skizzerz wrote:
James McKendrew wrote:
MuffinB wrote:
... and you can examine the same card over and over, recharging/using whatever card you have that lets you do it...
Sure. Cards don't have memory. They can't know if you're examining a card that you've already examined.
Cards don't have memories but players do. I'd view examining the same card repeatedly the same as searching your deck for a nonexistent cohort (see my link above). Perhaps if you place examined cards face-down again that would be fine, but I just leave them face-up so you can always just look at their powers.

While that situation is provisioned in the digital game, I don't think there is a rule that says you can place the examined cards back face up (I could be wrong on this, not withstanding that many of us do this out of convenience anyway). The rules state for cards examine then, would be face down, unless otherwise indicated.

In the end, I don't think I can agree with a ruling that bases the mechanical state of the game on the memory of a player. I mean, technically and this is very true in Mummies, if you forget what card is on top of a deck, you can't just peek at it again, you would need to use an ability that let's you look, which could potentially hit a trigger.


We're straying from the point of the thread.... but FWIW, we always turn examined cards on top of decks face up, until there is a need to shuffle the deck or add cards to it. It's a house rule, but I think an unobjectionable one. We don't play PACG as a memory game.


elcoderdude wrote:
We don't play PACG as a memory game.

I know most people play it as "not a memory game", but I do. Not that I want to exercise my memory skills when playing PACG, but I find it weird to leave card face up on top of decks when they have been examined. To avoid confusion, we only leave face up the cards we're encountering...

Also, I haven't played MM yet, but I think it's a lot less appropriate to leave "trigger" cards face up... Why would you not have to suffer the consequences of not remembering a "trigger" card...


elcoderdude wrote:
Irgy wrote:
If you follow this logic you'd never be able to cast Cure at all, since it's never (directly) relevant to any situation.
Casting Cure is relevant whenever a character has cards in their discard pile. Can you cast Cure on a character who does not need healing? My understanding is you can't. I think this came up in a forum discussion, but I can't currently find it.

By that logic you could cast cure in the middle of an encounter, just because you have cards in your discard pile. The rule about cards being relevant to the encounter is different to whatever rule says you can't cure a healthy player. Actually I'm not even sure the latter one exists anywhere, I can't find it myself, though everyone seems to agree you can't do it.

PS yes I know the conversation has moved on I still want to answer this anyway.

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We leave examined cards face-up, too (although now that MM is out we might have to come up with some other mechanism).

PACG is quite explicit about not being a "memory game" - you can always examine your discard pile to remind yourself what it contains, so I don't see why you should be expected to forget other things you've learned. We also mark anything we've learned about where the villain might be, etc.

The electronic version of the game also tracks how many boons and banes of each type remain in a location deck; while we don't generally do that ourselves, I wouldn't consider doing so to be contrary to the spirit of the game.


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JohnF wrote:
PACG is quite explicit about not being a "memory game" - you can always examine your discard pile to remind yourself what it contains, so I don't see why you should be expected to forget other things you've learned.

The main memory aspects in the game are:

a) keeping track of what is in the location decks if you have to shuffle things back
b) keeping track of the cards you have recharged in your deck, and knowing when they will come up.

I'm pretty bad at b) and tend to not sweat that one, but I know some people pride themselves on knowing when eg their cures come back.


Irgy wrote:
elcoderdude wrote:
Irgy wrote:
If you follow this logic you'd never be able to cast Cure at all, since it's never (directly) relevant to any situation.
Casting Cure is relevant whenever a character has cards in their discard pile.

By that logic you could cast cure in the middle of an encounter, just because you have cards in your discard pile. The rule about cards being relevant to the encounter is different to whatever rule says you can't cure a healthy player.

Actually, this neatly caps the debate & resolves my dilemma.

Curing is relevant if you need healing, but it is not allowed during an encounter because it is not related to the current step.
Similarly, gaining a skill (for example) can always be relevant, but not related to the current step.

STILL I think we should clarify in the rulebook why display cards/powers are always considered relevant to the situation.


elcoderdude wrote:
Irgy wrote:
elcoderdude wrote:
Irgy wrote:
If you follow this logic you'd never be able to cast Cure at all, since it's never (directly) relevant to any situation.
Casting Cure is relevant whenever a character has cards in their discard pile.

By that logic you could cast cure in the middle of an encounter, just because you have cards in your discard pile. The rule about cards being relevant to the encounter is different to whatever rule says you can't cure a healthy player.

Actually, this neatly caps the debate & resolves my dilemma.

Curing is relevant if you need healing, but it is not allowed during an encounter because it is not related to the current step.
Similarly, gaining a skill (for example) can always be relevant, but not related to the current step.

STILL I think we should clarify in the rulebook why display cards/powers are always considered relevant to the situation.

I think this covers it:

Quote:

If a card in your hand does not specify when it can be played, you can

generally play it anytime you can play cards, with the exception that during
an encounter you may only perform specific actions at specific times.

It's not that display cards/powers are always relevant, it's that many just don't specify when they can be played/used.


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If there is one thing we all agree on is that an answer to all the questions along that thread from Vic would be VERY welcome.


Has this been resolved by now? I.e. may Mavaro recharge any cards he likes before resetting his hand?

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I still say no, but it has not been officially resolved.


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CMB notwithstanding, I think the community consensus is Mavaro can, at any time, display a card to gain a skill he has not yet gained in this fashion -- the only exception being, he can only do this during an encounter if he is actually using the skill he gains in this fashion on the current check.

But no, there is no official answer.


On the "can't use it unless its applies to your current situation" front, when scouting has identified the need I've played cards of the Incendiary Cloud model before encountering villains with a "roll something or you can't cast Attack spells." It "applies" because I fit the requirements of having a deck to display it next to, but not because I've encountered a monster. Certainly legal in the app.

Or running Raheli (sadly, not yet in the app) - you can recharge items well beyond what might be needed to reasonably overcome the check result if you want to cycle your hand. Does that seem against RAI to anyone?


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No, it doesn't to me at least. I often play Incendiary Cloud (or similar cards) in the hopes of encountering a monster, even if I don't know that I will. And I often overkill a check simply because I can (well, at least before Mummy's Mask I did).

And that is the difficult thing here. Even if you don't like that Mavaro can just display and recharge his whole hand, limiting that in any way might adversely impact some things you can do legitimately. Other than saying Mavaro can display a card that only lists skills he's already gained, I don't think any rule will be narrow enough to close this off. And even if you did say he couldn't display a card that only grants the skills he's already gained, you'd probably still be able to pretty easily display enough cards for the sole purpose of recharging them that hand side still wouldn't be a problem. Which means you changed something for no benefit.


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This has been a very illuminating discussion to date. I have a closely related question, which I'm not sure may deserve its own thread:

Can Mavaro recharge spells et al. that require a skill he doesn't have, but can immediately get?

Combat spells are easy. Generally he will have already displayed an Arcane/Divine card by the time recharging comes around.

Utility spells like Cure or Find Traps are on much shakier ground, especially when played off-turn. Since these say "... if you do not have the [Arcane/Divine] skill, banish it;" does that mean that Mavaro must already have an Arcane/Divine card displayed, or can he display one at this moment because it "applies to the current situation"?

Contrast, e.g., a wand: "After playing this card, you may succeed at an Arcane 8 check..." Read literally, no Arcane skill required, so I can absolutely use my Arcane 1d4 and display something to kick it up to 1d10+x.


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Sathar wrote:

This has been a very illuminating discussion to date. I have a closely related question, which I'm not sure may deserve its own thread:

Can Mavaro recharge spells et al. that require a skill he doesn't have, but can immediately get?

Combat spells are easy. Generally he will have already displayed an Arcane/Divine card by the time recharging comes around.

Utility spells like Cure or Find Traps are on much shakier ground, especially when played off-turn. Since these say "... if you do not have the [Arcane/Divine] skill, banish it;" does that mean that Mavaro must already have an Arcane/Divine card displayed, or can he display one at this moment because it "applies to the current situation"?

Contrast, e.g., a wand: "After playing this card, you may succeed at an Arcane 8 check..." Read literally, no Arcane skill required, so I can absolutely use my Arcane 1d4 and display something to kick it up to 1d10+x.

You cannot use Mavaro's power in your first example, the spell would be banished. It would have needed to be used before playing the spell.

The only time you can interrupt the resolution of a power with something else is when that something else is worded "When something happens, ..." or "When something would happen, ...". Beyond that, you cannot play cards or use powers when resolving the text on the power unless the power or the rulebook explicitly lets you do so (such as when a power tells you to encounter a card or make a check, and in both of those cases the rules tell you that you can play cards related to that encounter/check).


I think skizzerz is applying the "finish one thing before you start another rule", which in this case trumps the idea that you can play any card whenever the card allows it, outside of encounters.

The point is usually moot though, isn' it?

Instead of:
1. Play Cure or Find Traps or Augury or whatever
2. Display a card to get Divine
3. Attempt recharge

just do this:

1. Display a card to get Divine
2. Play Cure or Finds Traps or Augury or whatever
3. Attempt recharge

I have trouble imagining why you'd have any trouble taking the latter course. And at my table, if you forgot, we aren't such sticklers that we'd say "Nope! Too late". We'd say, yeah, let's say you did that first.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
elcoderdude wrote:

just do this:

1. Display a card to get Divine
2. Play Cure or Finds Traps or Augury or whatever
3. Attempt recharge

I have trouble imagining why you'd have any trouble taking the latter course. And at my table, if you forgot, we aren't such sticklers that we'd say "Nope! Too late". We'd say, yeah, let's say you did that first.

Well, for Find Traps in particular - you'd play the spell during an encounter, at which point you cannot just display a card *first* to get Divine/Arcane due to "lack of relevancy" (you'd need to "do another thing in order for the first thing to be relevant" - i.e. play the Find Traps itself)

This reminds me however that I DO have a Find Traps in my Mavaro deck and the way I play it is the way Skizzers claims is illegal - but when a card asks me "If you have the skill Arcane or Divine...", I *do* find that is a relevant time to play cards/powers that would grant me those skills.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
skizzerz wrote:
The only time you can interrupt the resolution of a power with something else is when that something else is worded "When something happens, ..." or "When something would happen, ...". Beyond that, you cannot play cards or use powers when resolving the text on the power unless the power or the rulebook explicitly lets you do so (such as when a power tells you to encounter a card or make a check, and in both of those cases the rules tell you that you can play cards related to that encounter/check).

I'm not exactly sure to which rule you refer here, but would it change anything that (IIRC!) the "recharge block" of the cards has been stated *not* to be technically a power? (I think it was considered an "instruction" or smth, I can't find the relevant quote however... Same for the Armors' "recharge at reset hand" text, which lets you recharge a Corrupted Ghoul Hide without burying a card, for example.)


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Longshot11 wrote:
skizzerz wrote:
The only time you can interrupt the resolution of a power with something else is when that something else is worded "When something happens, ..." or "When something would happen, ...". Beyond that, you cannot play cards or use powers when resolving the text on the power unless the power or the rulebook explicitly lets you do so (such as when a power tells you to encounter a card or make a check, and in both of those cases the rules tell you that you can play cards related to that encounter/check).
I'm not exactly sure to which rule you refer here, but would it change anything that (IIRC!) the "recharge block" of the cards has been stated *not* to be technically a power? (I think it was considered an "instruction" or smth, I can't find the relevant quote however... Same for the Armors' "recharge at reset hand" text, which lets you recharge a Corrupted Ghoul Hide without burying a card, for example.)

Was referring to Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else, as elcoderdude surmised. As such, that difference would not matter.


Good point on Find Traps. For the non-encounter-realated spells, it's not a problem, but Find Traps is different.


So, wait, when during the normal course of events Mavaro reveals a weapon and then wants to display it to get the "skills to acquire it = Int", why doesn't the "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" rule prevent him from doing this? It doesn't say "during a check" on Mavaro's skill acquisition power.

Alternatively, what's keeping him from using his power once during the Attempt the Check step to acquire the Divine skill he will need to not banish Find Traps? It is a power that relates to a card played in that step, unless "relates" has a specific technical meaning.

It's these sort of nitty-gritty discussions that always lead me to realize that I'm probably doing things right 80% of the time by understanding 20% of the rules.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

At issue in the case of Find Traps is that there is no Attempt the Check step* if Mavaro does not already have the Divine skill displayed. Spells usually say something like "If you do not have the Divine skill, banish this card."

That said, I'm still not convinced that Mavaro can't use his power to interrupt the process to give himself the skill which is relevant to the situation (not banishing the spell).

* -- Not sure if it's what you meant, but I suppose that there is indeed an Attempt the Check step during the check to defeat the barrier that Find Traps was originally played on. It's a big stretch, but maybe Mavaro could use his power during that step, i.e. I just played a Divine spell but I don't have the Divine skill and my power affects how the spell card will be resolved. This does violate skizzerz's definition of a valid interrupt, however, though I'm not sure if that's an opinion or a rulebook citing.


In a way, we are pouring new wine into old wineskins, because Mavaro is a strange bird who probably wasn't envisioned when many of the rules were written.

Your first question is straightforward, though: part of attempting a check is:

Mummy's Mask p.12 wrote:

Play Cards and Use Powers That Affect Your Check (Optional).

Characters may now play cards or use powers that affect your check.
Characters may not do things that modify a skill unless you’re using that skill, and characters may not do things that affect combat unless you’re attempting a combat check.

If Mavaro reveals a weapon to use his Melee skill (for example), when he gets to this step, displaying a card to alter the definition of his Melee skill is definitely called for in the rules. He's modifying a skill he is using.

The thing about the wording on a recharge check, for Find Traps for example:

Find Traps wrote:
After playing this card, if you do not have the Divine skill, banish it; otherwise, you may succeed at a Divine 8 check to recharge this card instead of discarding it.

The power asks if you have the Divine skill before you ever get to the recharge check.

I think skizzerz is correct by RAW, but I am thinking the intention with characters like Mavaro is they should be able to avoid the banish by granting themselves the necessary skill. I'm not sure about the best way to tweak the rules to permit that.

EDIT: Ninja'd


EDIT: I, too, am ninjaed, and probably wrong due to not considering p 12.

Well, the whole relevancy issue, as far as I understand it, is on p 9.

"Characters may only play cards or use powers that relate to each step (or relate to cards played or powers used during that step)."

At base, if someone else encounters a trap Mavaro can't do anything unless he has a card that says he can. Find Traps says he can. So far, so good - he's got a card into play. How does that influence the relevance of his power?

It seems to me there's a narrow rules-lawyer-y definition where you can argue that Divine skill relates to Find Traps because there's a Divine 8 check on the card and he's using a power related to a card played in that step. Then there's another narrow rules-lawyer band where it is not related because the Divine 8 check on the card isn't used on that step. Then there's an entirely non-technical generic English meaning of "relates" that says "this has a direct, germane relationship to how the use of this card plays out in that it says whether it's banished or not, so it's related." Not sure whether this is a "think bigger, cheater" situation or a "think smaller, rules lawyer" situation.

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