Manacles of silencing cost check


Advice


My player wants to have a pair of manacles made enchanted with Silence. The idea is he would grapple a spellcaster and put these on, at which point they would activate until removed, Silencing the spellcaster.

We were trying to figure out the total cost. We haven't really done any magical item creation, so could someone check our reasoning?

Silence is a cleric level 2 spell, so the base price would be 2 x 3(CL) x 2000gp, so 12,000gp.

Silence is measured in rounds, so the price is multiplied by 4, so now it's 48,000gp.

We're concerned this seems ridiculously high (and it would be silly to pay for that when gagging is likely to work well enough anyway).


Well the other side of that is, silence is usually a bad thing for everyone in the area. I'm assuming you are just targeting the person being restricted with the spell and this particular item. That selective targeting is worth a huge amount in many cases (as it isn't something you can do in many situations) and carries no penalty to you or your party (where the spell is a blanket effect and can screw you and yours over if not prepared for it).

Your best bet is to scour the magic items already published for something that does what you are looking for to make a price comparison, if you feel it is too high. You say it is too high, another player would be happy to drop that much to silence a single target without save or SR. It is perspective.


Maybe he could settle for the existing Manacles of Cooperation? Not quite what he's looking for but maybe close enough (even better in some ways).

Your math is correct, BTW.


I approve of this product...


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Maybe he could settle for the existing Manacles of Cooperation? Not quite what he's looking for but maybe close enough (even better in some ways).

Your math is correct, BTW.

Seems nearly useless against a caster, any mage will easily beat a DC 11 Will Save.


He wants to know whether you could reduce the cost by allowing a save?

Manacles of Cooperation would work; I think 'don't speak' is a reasonable request. Though DC11 Will save is very low.

Is there some sort of formula regarding altering/adding save DCs to adjust the cost?


http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Whisper ing%20Gloves

This item has a very similar ability


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Maybe he could settle for the existing Manacles of Cooperation? Not quite what he's looking for but maybe close enough (even better in some ways).

Your math is correct, BTW.

Seems nearly useless against a caster, any mage will easily beat a DC 11 Will Save.
Manacles of Cooperation wrote:
These tight iron cuffs can fit over the wrists of any Large or smaller humanoid. When placed on a helpless humanoid, they make the captive more docile and compliant. The prisoner never attempts to escape of its own volition and agrees to any reasonable request unless it succeeds at a DC 11 Will saving throw.

I was reading that as "the prisoner (never attempts to escape) and (agrees to any reasonable request unless it saves)" but I suppose it could be the other way. That would explain the low price. :-(

LucyG92 wrote:
Is there some sort of formula regarding altering/adding save DCs to adjust the cost?

No, and I don't know why not. You'd have to wing it.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Maybe he could settle for the existing Manacles of Cooperation? Not quite what he's looking for but maybe close enough (even better in some ways).

Your math is correct, BTW.

Seems nearly useless against a caster, any mage will easily beat a DC 11 Will Save.
Manacles of Cooperation wrote:
These tight iron cuffs can fit over the wrists of any Large or smaller humanoid. When placed on a helpless humanoid, they make the captive more docile and compliant. The prisoner never attempts to escape of its own volition and agrees to any reasonable request unless it succeeds at a DC 11 Will saving throw.

I was reading that as "the prisoner (never attempts to escape) and (agrees to any reasonable request unless it saves)" but I suppose it could be the other way. That would explain the low price. :-(

LucyG92 wrote:
Is there some sort of formula regarding altering/adding save DCs to adjust the cost?
No, and I don't know why not. You'd have to wing it.

Because in 90%+ of the situations where a save means anything, they are already making one. Price alteration for introducing a save would complicate things (a save where none existed) or allow you to reduce price on something further with a "useless" save with no meaningful impact. Both of those points are counter to the design goals of PFRPG, most poignantly to streamline game play and better balance the 3.5 rule set.


LucyG92 wrote:

He wants to know whether you could reduce the cost by allowing a save?

Manacles of Cooperation would work; I think 'don't speak' is a reasonable request. Though DC11 Will save is very low.

Is there some sort of formula regarding altering/adding save DCs to adjust the cost?

Maybe try another approach?

At this point you really need to sit down and determine why exactly you want this item and figure out if there is another way to get a similar result (different path, same destination). Mechanically an item that screws over every caster class in existence should be expensive, especially as they tend to be susceptible to close combat (CMD tends to not be high) which is exactly how you plan on making use of them (pin to manacle them). PFRPG removed a lot of the save or die mechanics, this is basically reintroducing them in a way, which goes against the entire premise of the game. Removing access to class abilities both easily and effectively permanently should be expensive if not out right disallowed.

Instead of taking the 'easy' way out (manacles of silence), maybe you can try to focus down to what exactly you are trying to do and research other avenues to that effect. Way more often than not, you end up realizing what your intent is, was either out of line (broken/powerful) or not what you thought it might have been (and figure out other ways to get what you want). Or occasionally you realize the game doesn't let you do what you wanted to, for a reason.


I see gags mentioned in the CRB. Any specific rule for using them?


I don't see them(gags) in the PRD.

If they were use you would have to grapple, pin, tie up, and the gag. That is 4 rounds. If you gag him, and he is not tied up then nothing stops him from removing the gag except GM Fiat. Even bring grappled doesn't restrict him from taking a rag out of his mouth.


Skylancer4 -
Firstly, I'd just like to point out, as the GM, that I actually don't want him to capture my poor spellcasters and manacle them - but if he does, then I'll be congratulating him regardless.

Quote:
Removing access to class abilities both easily and effectively permanently should be expensive if not out right disallowed.

A fighter caught in the same way would be in a similar situation, surely? Anyway, if he can successfully grapple, tie, and manacle someone, then he could probably kill them instead. Either way they lose access to their class abilities, so why should I allow one method and not the other? Expensive, maybe, yes. But I don't want to make something expensive and be unable to come up with any reason other than "it would break the game if it wasn't" or I'll ruin the immersion.

As for gags - he's going to fight a powerful wizard, as far as he knows. He wants to make absolutely sure he can't cast spells. So he's trying to plan several contingencies.


UMD, wand of silence, tanglefoot bags.


LucyG92 wrote:

Skylancer4 -

Firstly, I'd just like to point out, as the GM, that I actually don't want him to capture my poor spellcasters and manacle them - but if he does, then I'll be congratulating him regardless.

Quote:
Removing access to class abilities both easily and effectively permanently should be expensive if not out right disallowed.

A fighter caught in the same way would be in a similar situation, surely? Anyway, if he can successfully grapple, tie, and manacle someone, then he could probably kill them instead. Either way they lose access to their class abilities, so why should I allow one method and not the other? Expensive, maybe, yes. But I don't want to make something expensive and be unable to come up with any reason other than "it would break the game if it wasn't" or I'll ruin the immersion.

As for gags - he's going to fight a powerful wizard, as far as he knows. He wants to make absolutely sure he can't cast spells. So he's trying to plan several contingencies.

Um, game balance is exactly why things are expensive in the game.


BigDTBone -
I have no problem with things being expensive, I just didn't want to arbitrarily add extra cost to an item that should otherwise be cheaper (as per the rules for item creation). As it is, people have confirmed that the original estimation was correct, so that's fine.

But I don't think that any item that silences a mage should cost more just because it, well, stops them from casting spells. I'm not meaning to be argumentative or anything, just trying to explain my reasoning.

Liberty's Edge

Well, at that price (48k), anyone can activate the manacles, even without putting them on someone. It also works in a radius, rather than effecting only a single target.

That's way better than the item as described, which is limited by being forced to grapple the target, and only works on that specific target. I don't actually know how much that should reduce the cost, but it seems like it should be by quite a bit, actually. Those are both pretty big limitations as opposed to the hypothetical 'ring of silence' that lacks them.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Well, at that price (48k), anyone can activate the manacles, even without putting them on someone. It also works in a radius, rather than effecting only a single target.

That's way better than the item as described, which is limited by being forced to grapple the target, and only works on that specific target. I don't actually know how much that should reduce the cost, but it seems like it should be by quite a bit, actually. Those are both pretty big limitations as opposed to the hypothetical 'ring of silence' that lacks them.

It depends on your perception of the item again. You cannot price an item out on how you want it to work in one specific situation. You have to price it out in every possible situation, because it will be used in all situations where it is applicable. That is why some items have prices people don't necessarily agree with.

Situation A : Super useful.
Situation B : 'Sorta' useful.
Situation C : Not useful but not hazardous.
Situation D : Hazardous to the user.

How do you price it?

There is a reason that magic items have no hard and fast rules, and is considered more art than a science. Not everyone understands the fundamentals and 'gets' what is required to do it in every situation. It just isn't an easy thing to explain, especially when what you think of as a detriment doesn't come into play. An opponent's defenses can't be used to weigh in on a price of an item. It doesn't matter because it changes from opponent to opponent and from user to user. There are characters who can grapple and pin in a round, so the item should be more expensive? No, it just doesn't work that way.


LucyG92 wrote:

BigDTBone -

I have no problem with things being expensive, I just didn't want to arbitrarily add extra cost to an item that should otherwise be cheaper (as per the rules for item creation). As it is, people have confirmed that the original estimation was correct, so that's fine.

But I don't think that any item that silences a mage should cost more just because it, well, stops them from casting spells. I'm not meaning to be argumentative or anything, just trying to explain my reasoning.

When the spell you are basing it off of isn't effectively permanent and the item requires no 'maintenance' (re-upping the ability aka re-casting the spell) you cannot consider them the same any more. The 'balance' becomes off as you are changing the effective power of the original concept. The game isn't balanced around total denial of character abilities (barring hit points) for good reason, and if you don't understand that, you probably shouldn't be messing with magic item creation. When denial happens, it comes with time limits, specific circumstances, comes from valuable and limited daily resources etc. Not a simple item you slap on the character mid combat.


If the manacles were made to stop people from being able to make attacks with manufactured weapons I think they would also be expensive.

But you also have to consider that it likely takes a 2 round setup to put them on someone. The final price will always be subjective so I suggest the GM just give what he thinks is a fair price, and that will vary based on his game.


you could take the manacles of cooperation times the cost by 4-6 (so 8000-12000g) and make it a dc25 will or fortitude save which ever is worse

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