You've seen the trope. You know the lie. It kinda makes sense for Gandalf since he's more of a low level angel than a traditional wizard, but in D&D it's almost pointless for a wizard to carry a sword. One could threaten with it I suppose, but if he's close enough to do that then there are larger issues.
... or is it?...
1) Do any sword or sword-like items exist that would actually be good for a wizard to carry?
2) if you were to design something what would you put on it? Off the top of my head Defending comes to mind, but only if you don't already have a ring of deflection.
Thoughts?
WeaponWand. Your sword is your wand, so basically you have a wand that threatens.
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You've seen the trope. You know the lie. It kinda makes sense for Gandalf since he's more of a low level angel than a traditional wizard, but in D&D it's almost pointless for a wizard to carry a sword. One could threaten with it I suppose, but if he's close enough to do that then there are larger issues.
... or is it?...
1) Do any sword or sword-like items exist that would actually be good for a wizard to carry?
2) if you were to design something what would you put on it? Off the top of my head Defending comes to mind, but only if you don't already have a ring of deflection.Thoughts?
Dueling Enchant gives +4 Initiative.
A +1 Spellstoring can be used to store Touch spells and given to the fighter to swing.
A Luck Blade is handy to boost saves and Having 1 Wish on hand. (Literally)
Defending is good since you can use GMW and get a few extra points of AC. Add in the Above Spellstoring weapon and you have a decent weapon good for Couping things you paralyze or hold monster. Remember it says this bonus to AC stacks with all others.
Spell Storing for the win, store a self buff spell in it, that way, you can be somewhat more competent when and if you make Atts of Opp, or end up using the sword.
Bull's Str, Cat's Grace (if you happen to decide to take Weapon Finesse and a valid sword type) Heroism, True Strike, all good choices for that.
You've seen the trope. You know the lie. It kinda makes sense for Gandalf since he's more of a low level angel than a traditional wizard, but in D&D it's almost pointless for a wizard to carry a sword. One could threaten with it I suppose, but if he's close enough to do that then there are larger issues.
... or is it?...
1) Do any sword or sword-like items exist that would actually be good for a wizard to carry?
2) if you were to design something what would you put on it? Off the top of my head Defending comes to mind, but only if you don't already have a ring of deflection.
The basic issue is that wizards aren't very good with swords.
Let's compare a basic attack cantrip like acid splash against a sword, probably a long sword. Acid splash does 1d3 points of damage if it hits, a sword does 1d8 (+ Strength, which will probably be 0 at best). Going by averages, a sword does 4.5 points vs. the spell's two, if it hits. But the wizard is going to be attacking touch AC with the spell (call it roughly 6 points easier [breastplate, no shield], on average), and taking a non-proficiency penalty with the sword as well (another -4), so our wizard is probably less than half as likely to hit with the sword. [Assume he will hit touch AC on a 8 (65% chance to hit), he will hit actual AC on an 18 (15% chance to hit}. 15% times 4.5 is 0.675 hit points per attack, 65% times 2.0 is 1.3 hit points per attack, so the cantrip does, in this case, roughly double damage.)
Now, there are lots of items that I could redesign in the shape of a sword that would be useful. For example, I could create a duelling sword with a permanent weaaponwand enchantment cast on it that would basically be a wand case, so the wizard could carry a sword around but use it mostly as a wand (and get the initiative bonus). Similarly, you could enchant a sword to be a metal staff of the magi.
But any sword-as-sword I can think of would be better off in the hands of a fighter, who has much better BAB, proficiency, and higher strength.
You've seen the trope. You know the lie. It kinda makes sense for Gandalf since he's more of a low level angel than a traditional wizard, but in D&D it's almost pointless for a wizard to carry a sword. One could threaten with it I suppose, but if he's close enough to do that then there are larger issues.
... or is it?...
1) Do any sword or sword-like items exist that would actually be good for a wizard to carry?
2) if you were to design something what would you put on it? Off the top of my head Defending comes to mind, but only if you don't already have a ring of deflection.
The basic issue is that wizards aren't very good with swords.
Let's compare a basic attack cantrip like acid splash against a sword, probably a long sword. Acid splash does 1d3 points of damage if it hits, a sword does 1d8 (+ Strength, which will probably be 0 at best). Going by averages, a sword does 4.5 points vs. the spell's two, if it hits. But the wizard is going to be attacking touch AC with the spell (call it roughly 6 points easier [breastplate, no shield], on average), and taking a non-proficiency penalty with the sword as well (another -4), so our wizard is probably less than half as likely to hit with the sword. [Assume he will hit touch AC on a 8 (65% chance to hit), he will hit actual AC on an 18 (15% chance to hit}. 15% times 4.5 is 0.675 hit points per attack, 65% times 2.0 is 1.3 hit points per attack, so the cantrip does, in this case, roughly double damage.)
Now, there are lots of items that I could redesign in the shape of a sword that would be useful. For example, I could create a duelling sword with a permanent weaaponwand enchantment cast on it that would basically be a wand case, so the wizard could carry a sword around but use it mostly as a wand (and get the initiative bonus). Similarly, you could enchant a sword to be a metal staff of the magi.
But any sword-as-sword I can think of would be...
You're reaffirming my point.
You've seen the trope. You know the lie. It kinda makes sense for Gandalf since he's more of a low level angel than a traditional wizard, but in D&D it's almost pointless for a wizard to carry a sword. One could threaten with it I suppose, but if he's close enough to do that then there are larger issues.
... or is it?...
1) Do any sword or sword-like items exist that would actually be good for a wizard to carry?
2) if you were to design something what would you put on it? Off the top of my head Defending comes to mind, but only if you don't already have a ring of deflection.Thoughts?
I think in general Pathfinder fails at this particular trope, unless you want to count a magus as a 'Wizard'.
I don't have time to throw together an answer for #2 right now, though I may come back to it later. I think it would be cool to have some weapons that are ~as useful as metamagic rods for example.
As far as #1 goes, the only thing that really springs to mind is a Luck Blade. While it's expensive (and thus might not be a good use of WBL), the +1 Luck bonus to all saves, coupled with 1x re-roll per day, and possible uses of 'Wish' without burning a spell slot or materials is pretty sweet.
Also, the luck bonus / etc. are granted to the 'possessor' of the blade. You don't even have to be holding it, leaving your hands free for items like staves and wands.
I think it's a very thematic and fun weapon for a Wizard, personally.
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In Ad&D there was the wand of force (from 1st edition Unearthed Arcana), one function of which literally functioned like a lightsaber, giving you in effect a +5 bastard sword with no proficiency requirement... I had a magic user that was particularly fond of using it in combination with a (Tenser's) Transformation spell...
Will add in that a wizard can fight moderately effectively if you build and focus for it and on it, but is you class well designed to do this? Nope.
I have enjoyed the couple of "fighty" actual wizards or arcanists I have created and played in PF, but optimal is not a word on the radar here. Magus does this much better, but I actually found the challenge of "Gandolfing" in PF rewarding, and many, many, interesting RP things came up just because of me attempting this as a player.
Was it fun, yep...
You've seen the trope. You know the lie. It kinda makes sense for Gandalf since he's more of a low level angel than a traditional wizard, but in D&D it's almost pointless for a wizard to carry a sword. One could threaten with it I suppose, but if he's close enough to do that then there are larger issues.
... or is it?...
1) Do any sword or sword-like items exist that would actually be good for a wizard to carry?
2) if you were to design something what would you put on it? Off the top of my head Defending comes to mind, but only if you don't already have a ring of deflection.Thoughts?
Most magically inclined types going in that direction become magi instead. Magi can be thought of as wizards who've sacrificed magical potential for martial ability.
Most wizards don't go for martial weapons because they don't want to be on the front line. Elves may be the exception, because all elves receive sword and bow training.
Sword Binder gives you proficiency with any sword of your choice. This includes falchions and katanas. They also get a lot of bonuses to using their sword, including delivering touch spells at range with the sword, using your Int as your attack stat.
Does this make using a sword for a wizard particularly strong? F*%@ no but telekinetic swords are kinda cool. And at 8th you get a scouting sword. Very cool.
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Don't you have to take at least 1 swing with it to activate Defending for the round? I could have sworn that there was a FAQ.
Defending is good since you can use GMW and get a few extra points of AC.
Not 100% sure.
But a +1 Spell-storing, Defending, Dueling Adamantine Weapon
(Of Course GMW on it for more Bonus)
Could maybe Have Weapon wand casted on it too.
Win Initiative, Go First, Hold Person/Chains of Light/Make them Helpless (Bonus for Persistent Spell), Move to them.
Round 2 free action use Defending for AC boost, Full Round- Coup Helpless Target.
Profit???
Later you can be Mass Holds on targets and walk about the field Killing things.
I personally never use defending or a weapon on a wizard. If I need a Coup partner I Summon them or my Team mate does it.
I am just trying to help TCG to come up with Ideas to fit his question.
I personally think its a waste of Gold for yourself as a wizard.
Yes, Charon, you are correct. The Defending property is use-activated. One must actively use (not merely passively wield) the defending weapon for the property to activate. Give me a few minutes and I'll search it up.
EDIT: HERE is the FAQ on Defending Weapons.
Lots of race choices could make a fightin' wizard's life less harsh.
Elf is indeed one.
Plenty of other good choices even in the core races
nothing wrong with a 12-14 Str dwarven wizard.
No reason why a stat line like the following could no work for a fighting wizard, it is easier with dwarven weapons, but anything could work, sword included. However the heirloom weapon trait saves us a feat for proficiency in our chosen beat stick.
15 PB Str 14 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 8
BAB...I am a wizard, I do not know what this is...(but you can manufacture to hit bonuses, and damage bonuses, and special attack affects by being a smart wizard and choosing spells that compliment and enhance your ability to fight, and you should likely have some battlefield control as well, as reducing enemy effectiveness by altering the battlefield also enhances your own ability to fight on said field.)
FCB...you better believe this should go to you HP, cause wait for it, you are still a wizard.
An elf could make excellent use of the heirloom weapon trait and use a elven curve blade, similar idea to dwarven waraxe, downside, -2 Con.
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I think in general Pathfinder fails at this particular trope, unless you want to count a magus as a 'Wizard'.
Play a Magus. Wear a big robe with arcane symbols over your chain shirt. Buy a big pointy hat. Describe yourself to those you meet as a magician or a master of the arcane arts or whatever mystical title you fancy. If anyone is rude about this or insists on asking in-character 'no really what class are you?', belt them with your longsword.
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Off topic, but I'm personally tired of the trope that mages are completely inept in non magical combat. Also, has anyone else noticed that the Wizard is limited to 5 weapon proficiencies while the other 3 full casting arcane classes have full proficiency with simple weapons? That's b%#$#!@&.
You've seen the trope. You know the lie. It kinda makes sense for Gandalf since he's more of a low level angel than a traditional wizard, but in D&D it's almost pointless for a wizard to carry a sword. One could threaten with it I suppose, but if he's close enough to do that then there are larger issues.
... or is it?...
1) Do any sword or sword-like items exist that would actually be good for a wizard to carry?
2) if you were to design something what would you put on it? Off the top of my head Defending comes to mind, but only if you don't already have a ring of deflection.Thoughts?
I think in general Pathfinder fails at this particular trope, unless you want to count a magus as a 'Wizard'.
I don't have time to throw together an answer for #2 right now, though I may come back to it later. I think it would be cool to have some weapons that are ~as useful as metamagic rods for example.
As far as #1 goes, the only thing that really springs to mind is a Luck Blade. While it's expensive (and thus might not be a good use of WBL), the +1 Luck bonus to all saves, coupled with 1x re-roll per day, and possible uses of 'Wish' without burning a spell slot or materials is pretty sweet.
Also, the luck bonus / etc. are granted to the 'possessor' of the blade. You don't even have to be holding it, leaving your hands free for items like staves and wands.
I think it's a very thematic and fun weapon for a Wizard, personally.
Well, since technically Gandalf was closer to an elf than a human in Lord of the Rings, I would say elf wizard with a long sword comes pretty darn close.
Play a Magus. Wear a big robe with arcane symbols over your chain shirt. Buy a big pointy hat. Describe yourself to those you meet as a magician or a master of the arcane arts or whatever mystical title you fancy. If anyone is rude about this or insists on asking in-character 'no really what class are you?', belt them with your longsword.
I think in general Pathfinder fails at this particular trope, unless you want to count a magus as a 'Wizard'.
I'm fine with this course of action, and it's how I would handle trying to implement the "wizard who uses a sword" trope if I wanted to do it in PF. The OP definitely knows about the magus class however, and still posted. To me that implies he is looking for the wizard class in particular, or at least a full arcane caster.
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Off topic, but I'm personally tired of the trope that mages are completely inept in non magical combat. Also, has anyone else noticed that the Wizard is limited to 5 weapon proficiencies while the other 3 full casting arcane classes have full proficiency with simple weapons? That's b!#*%~~%.
They're also THE most developed class in the practice of arcane magic. It stands the reason that they have the least time to devote to weapon practise.
And if you think you have rough now? In the old days you were proficient in ONE weapon, your choice of staff OR dagger, and you had ONE count it.. ONE first level spell per day when you were first level.
A wizard should be flexible enough to pull a good swords(wo)man with good defense, but you have to invest quite a bit (ability scores, traits, spells, feats, money etc.).
I skimmed through Ultimate Equipment and the following weapon special abilities seem to be fitting:
Conductive (+1): Apply a school power on hit, might even daze or blind a foe (as long as they don't have more HD than you)
Spell storing (+1): Save a spell (3rd level or below) in the sword, apply it on damage as free (!) action - Vampiric Touch comes to my mind
Vicious (+1): If you lack damage per hit, add 2d6 and accept the 1d6 backlash - Infernal Healing (or its Greater version) helps to compensate
Glamered (+4k gold): Pretend your sword is a wand or something else (must be of similar size though), rather for fun and roleplay
A great thing here is the Greater Magic Weapon spell. First, it means that you only need +1 as a permanent bonus on the weapon, to unlock more exotic bonuses. Ok, the spell has a limited duration, but I'd take this risk. Second, there are several weapon special abilities which scale with enhancement. Usually, they are not worth it - but now you can have both high enhancement and a few such abilities. Unless your GM rules otherwise.
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Off topic, but I'm personally tired of the trope that mages are completely inept in non magical combat. Also, has anyone else noticed that the Wizard is limited to 5 weapon proficiencies while the other 3 full casting arcane classes have full proficiency with simple weapons? That's b!#*%~~%.They're also THE most developed class in the practice of arcane magic. It stands the reason that they have the least time to devote to weapon practise.
And if you think you have rough now? In the old days you were proficient in ONE weapon, your choice of staff OR dagger, and you had ONE count it.. ONE first level spell per day when you were first level.
And you didn't get to pick the spells in your spellbook, either (I forget if you got 3 or 4). You had to roll.
And going to wizard school was 100 miles through ice and snow, uphill both ways through an anti-magic field.
But we LIKED it that way, because we had VALUES back then. Ah, those were the days!
Spell Storing for the win, store a self buff spell in it, that way, you can be somewhat more competent when and if you make Atts of Opp, or end up using the sword.
Bull's Str, Cat's Grace (if you happen to decide to take Weapon Finesse and a valid sword type) Heroism, True Strike, all good choices for that.
A Spell Storing weapon casts the spell on the creature attacked, not the wielder of the weapon.
SPELL STORING
A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance of having a spell stored in it already. This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons.
So Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, and Heroism would all buff your enemy. True Strike wouldn't work at all.
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You also needed TWICE as much xp as the rogue to get to second level. And d4 hit points. In the snow.
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In Ad&D there was the wand of force (from 1st edition Unearthed Arcana), one function of which literally functioned like a lightsaber, giving you in effect a +5 bastard sword with no proficiency requirement... I had a magic user that was particularly fond of using it in combination with a (Tenser's) Transformation spell...
Goes and digs out his copy of 1e Unearthed Arcana...
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Woops, yep, we will pretend I didn't forget about that bit, and go with I said RING of spell storing (that would be the right choice for self buffs)
::sheepish look:: I should have my coffee before submitting posts :)
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Appreciate the save there Gisher! That was a silly oversight on my part, must be Friday I work in a hamster ball (cubicle) brain turned to mush mistake...gah!
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No problem. I've had those weeks. ;)
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There are a bunch of good options for a sword wielding Wizard in the Aroden section of Arcane Anthology.
Aroden's Spellsword is basically 'Weaponwand' with rods and staves instead of wands. The Sword Binder wizard archetype has options for ranged sword attacks to keep the squishy wizard out of melee. There are also traits that grant longsword use and improve spell DC against targets you've stabbed, et cetera.
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I always thought of Gandalf as a Druid wielding a straight scimitar.
Seriously though, Elves are proficient in longswords and PFS has an Intelligent sword, so that may be one reason.
Dare I mention Eldritch Knights?
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Dare I mention Eldritch Knights?
You should, because with a EK, you can use the
T H O U S A N D C O L O S S A L S W O R D K I L L M O V E
The most anime of techniques, using an EK's remarkable BAB and their huge Intelligence score, you only need 3 things
A) Telekinesis
B) As many Colossal Sawtooth Sabres as you can push. At 11th, this is probably about 6-8, depending on whether or not you took Magical Knack and went Wizard 5/Fighter 1/EK 5.
C) Get an ox with a cart to bring your multitude of swords everywhere.
D) Get called a weeb a lot.
With all this, you can reliably launch a ridiculous quantity of immense weapons at your opponents with very reliable accuracy, and without compromising any other aspect of your spellcasting at all. Okay, maybe two less levels of slots, and a later attainment of 9th level spells, but nobody builds for 20 anyway.
Each sword should do 6d6 damage, and I think since a spell is a single attack I think it is only affected by a creatures DR once, reducing the amount from the total damage dealt to that creature by the spell and not per blade. But I could not rightly say and don't think a DM will necessarily buy that.
And that's how you use swords as a wizard. You need to really really make sure everyone within a quarter mile knows you have the largest tools around, and nobody can possibly wield as many or use them as well as you do.
To respond to Magehunter, the eldritch knight was the first attempt at a "Gish", yet the lost casting levels usually hurt wizards too much to consider it for most. Then the Magus was introduced, and allowed a PC to enter eldritch knight without multiclassing two base classes first.
In other words, Magus or Magus/eldritch knights are two good choices to make a Gish trope character, so there is hope for wannabe Elrics yet.
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And that's how you use swords as a wizard. You need to really really make sure everyone within a quarter mile knows you have the largest tools around, and nobody can possibly wield as many or use them as well as you do.
I thought that's why wizards wore belted robes, not why they carried swords.
To respond to Magehunter, the eldritch knight was the first attempt at a "Gish", yet the lost casting levels usually hurt wizards too much to consider it for most. Then the Magus was introduced, and allowed a PC to enter eldritch knight without multiclassing two base classes first.
In other words, Magus or Magus/eldritch knights are two good choices to make a Gish trope character, so there is hope for wannabe Elrics yet.
Well a properly built EK ends up only a single level behind, with better hit dice and medium BAB, and is incredibly versatile. At the very least able to use certain blast spells more. I think it's pretty string. Magi only get 6th level casting that can't compare.
Elric doesn't use Spellstrike either... hiss magic is more ritual than spell in the first place and who needs spellstrike when you're wielding Stormbringer? Elric is the epitomic fighter/wizard/eldritch Knight rather than anything magus like anyway.
Hm...
Weapon Enchantments that are good for a spellcaster:
Dispelling
Dispelling Burst (allows use of greater dispel magic) *Bonus, these add the weapon's enchantment bonus to your dispel check
Igniting, Neutralizing, and such for their out of combat uses
Limning ammunition for low levels (to help the party against invisible foes until better means are available)
Lifesurge is HUGE, it's a bonus without the wielding requirements and increases any temporary hit points you get. I recommend it as a +5 bland weapon for anyone.
Planar for more melee types
Phase lock (but really it's good for anyone)
Nullifying (again better to put on your fighter's weapon but not horrible for everyone to have)
I must be thinking of a different Elrics, as I don't think of either of the main characters of Fullmetal Alchemist as barbarians or fighters (I'd go Metal oracle).
Elric of Melnibone, from the Eternal Champion books by Moorcock. He's a doomed king of a magic empire that has an amazingly powerful artifact sword, Stormbringer.
Easy ways to get proficiency (Elf, feat even), plus things like Hand of the Apprentice, can make it quite easy to be reasonably effective with a sword (effective meaning, let's say, frequently better than a wand of magic missile at 3rd caster level).
Can also be group dependent. If you have a bard in the group, or generally have lots of combat buffing, it can be a real detriment *not* to have an effective weapon at hand.
I must be thinking of a different Elrics, as I don't think of either of the main characters of Fullmetal Alchemist as barbarians or fighters (I'd go Metal oracle).
Elric of Melniboné, the hero of Micheal Moorcock's seminal fantasy stories. (after whom I suspect the FMA character is named)
A sword for a wizard... sounds like a good title for a cheap novel.
I have recently been playing several iterations of an elf wizard, and really wanted to go for the old-school fighter-magic-user vibe. As an elf, with elven weapon familiarity, that was no problem, and often go into battle holding either a sword (longsword, or later a rapier) or a longbow.
Turned out, though, that I hardly ever used them. There are just so many better things to do with a wizard's actions than swing a sword or let fly an arrow. So the martial accoutrements ended up being more for show than anything else.
I mean, you really wouldn't want to take a hit to your wizard levels by dipping into another class (unless you were shooting for Eldritch Knight) and you really don't have enough feats that you'd want to spend any of them on being a better fighter.
Some feats and traits can do double duty, though. The elven trait Warrior of Old gives a very serviceable +2 init, with the added flavor of having been a fighter (of sorts) sometime in your past, even if you never actually take any fighter levels. Add in Improved Initiative and you're golden: the martial feel is there, even if all that boosted initiative is more useful for casting spells first.
So my clever elven fighter-magic-user doesn't actually have any levels in a martial class. Getting higher spell levels faster is simply too tempting to dillute it.
YMMV.
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The problem with the magus is that it just has too much baggage. That spellstrike thing? I don't know about Elric, but Gandalf never does that and neither does Corwin or any of his brothers. And it doesn't fit the fighter/mu from previous editions either. You use a sword so you can conserve your spells not so you can blow through them faster. The overspecialized magus spell list is a problem for the same reason.
The magus isn't meant to emulate the the fighter/magic-user or the EK which are charcters that ALTERNATE between casting and physical combat.
The magus does something that the above do not... it BLENDS sword and sorcery as a single action, so yes it will go through more spells because that's it's design. It has an arcane pool which it can use to replenish spells or do some own unique actions.
I've played both Eldrich Knights fighter/wizard builds and magi and enjoy both. But they are both different roads to different ends.