Initially underwhelming, the Deep Magus has been piquing my curiosity the more I think about it. While it can't go crit-fishing like the standard magus, what it can do is take full advantage of the caster-level increasing features that the third level ability provides to increase damage the regular way, instead of relying on critical damage.
A big drawback of the archetype, though, is that a great number of the magus's best defensive options are lost in the changes to the available spells. This means that you should plan to take full advantage of the better armor access that you get, which further leads me to believe that this is very much going to be a strength build.
With that in mind, I wanted to hammer out the details.
First off, what race should I pick? Dwarf is thematically appropriate and gives easy access to the dwarven battleaxe and its attractive 1d10, but has pretty bad stats for the magus. Human is obviously flexible and gets the bonus feat. Oread is also a solid choice thematically, but doesn't seem all that great either. I really like human here, but it sucks to make "just another human", you know?
as for the weapon, I really like the war hammer among the martial weapons that the archetype can use. Makes you feel more like thor when you start smashing folks with shocking grasp hammer.
to begin with, I just wanted to take a snapshot of the first 5 levels, and see where it's beginning to head from there.
Human Deep Marshal
20 pt buy
STR 18 (15+racial+level 4)
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 8
Traits:
The ever-standard magical lineage: shocking grasp.
and I've never checked this out before, but can't you stack that with Metamagic master: shocking grasp?
Because of the lower arcane pool, I would put all favored class points into the 1/4 of an extra arcane pool point.
Feats:
Human bonus: Improved Initiative
Level 1: Toughness
Level 3: Power Attack
Level 5: Weapon Focus: Warhammer
Magus 5 bonus: Intensify Spell
By level 5 wealth-by-level guidelines, you should have around 10,500 gp, which is enough to afford a +2 warhammer, as well as around 4000 gp worth of other gear. Probably just wear an agile breastblate while you save up for a magic one made of mithral.
Standard spells, such as shocking grasp and shield. Also take blade tutor's spirit to be able to power attack often.
First round, you should be able to cast blade tutor's spirit, enhance your weapon into a +4 weapon as a swift action, and then move into melee range of your opponent. Second round, you can start dishing out spell combat intensified shocking grasp, each dealing 7d6 damage thanks to your +2 caster levels from the third level feature and the +4 weapon. 1d8 + 10 + 7d6.
with a crit range of 20 and a x3, a crit means 3d8 + 30 + 14d6 5% of the time. That pushes the average damage per spellstrike to... 41.675. Without shocking grasp, he hits at an average of 15.95.
To compare, the regular magus usually has 1d6 + 9 + 5d6 at that point, from what I can remember off the top of my head, accounting for having less enhancement bonus in favor of the keen property and assuming the same strength.
Crit range of 15-20 and x2 multiplier for 2d6 + 18 + 10d6 30% of the time, making the average damage per spellstrike 39. Without shocking grasp, 16.25
... now that's certainly something I wasn't expecting. I'm willing to wager that I made some sort of mistake in my simple average damage calculations, and there's probably some change as you level up, becoming more dramatic as you hit level 9 when the crit-fisher build begins to catch up to this build in shocking grasp levels.
Other than that skeletal build, though, what else am I looking to add? What spells do you guys think I should take advantage of? Maybe fireball to be able to hit an enemy group for 9d6 at level 7? What do you think I should look into doing as I reach higher levels? maybe look into empower or maximize?
The archetype feels really interesting and thematic the more I look into it, and now feels rather well balanced in the earlier levels.
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Dwarf is a solid choice. Constitution bonus, good saving throws, can 5' step over difficult terrain, and access to the waraxe; this makes them easily on par with the human.
The main problem with the Deep Marshal is that it loses access to all of its best defense spells (and you don't gain much in abjuration, since the best abjurations were already on your list anyway). So while the Marshal matches the regular Magus in terms of DPR, it is actually weaker in terms of defense and versatility, and it doesn't get anything in exchange for that.
From human, you're getting +2 Str, Improved initiative and one more skill point/level. As a dwarf you get +2 Con, Wis and a whole lot of racial abilities including alternates (e.g. stonesinger, +1 CL with spells with the Earth descriptor). I wouldn't say the dwarf is necessarily the bad choice here.
Yes, you can take both those traits and even stack them on the same spell.
Don't forget other standard spells. Blink and haste are likely more often useful to you than fireball, glitterdust is always handy to have, bladed dash adds mobility and combines very well with spell combat.
Later on Empower Spell is good, Dazing Spell may be good even on a 6-level caster, and you probably want to aim for Spell Perfection.
As a dwarf with all martial weapons, you get the dwarven longaxe long hammer and boulder helmet for free. Those work rather well with this archetype.
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Okay, so! Because I got tired of constantly cross-referencing spells and determining whether or not the deep marshal can cast it, I compiled a list visually illustrating every spell available to the deep marshal, including what spells he loses.
Fun fact: The deep marshal loses only 58 spells for the 94 extra that he gains! assuming I didn't make any mistakes or duplicates or what-have-you.
The main problem with the Deep Marshal is that it loses access to all of its best defense spells (and you don't gain much in abjuration, since the best abjurations were already on your list anyway). So while the Marshal matches the regular Magus in terms of DPR, it is actually weaker in terms of defense and versatility, and it doesn't get anything in exchange for that.
Looking at it, I'm definitely noticing a big loss like mirror image, then there's greater invisibility, invisibility, and displacement, but you also gain protection from energy, protection from (alignment), Resist energy, globe of invulnerability (and lesser), stunning barrier (and greater), and a host of toolbox spells, such as stone shape. In addition, you get better armor earlier than the base magus.
I still don't think the deep marshal better than the base magus, but I'm also not convinced that its much worse.
As a dwarf with all martial weapons, you get the dwarven longaxe long hammer and boulder helmet for free. Those work rather well with this archetype.
Are you sure? Unless there's something I'm missing, the longaxe and long hammer are both two-handed weapons, which are both unusable with the spell combat feature. The dwarven boulder helmet looks interesting enough, though. Do you still get the +2 bonus to AC against critical confirmation rolls even when you're using another weapon?
From human, you're getting +2 Str, Improved initiative and one more skill point/level. As a dwarf you get +2 Con, Wis and a whole lot of racial abilities including alternates (e.g. stonesinger, +1 CL with spells with the Earth descriptor). I wouldn't say the dwarf is necessarily the bad choice here.
I am warming up to it more and more, yes. The only thing I'm not liking so far is that after messing around with my stats given the new modifiers, I'd either have to be down 1 point of strength, putting me behind by 4 levels on that front, or I'd have to get some pretty low charisma or perhaps give up some of the constituation I'm getting. Strength contributes to so much for the build, and constitution isn't something I want to throw away either, so it's a tough call.
Don't forget other standard spells. Blink and haste are likely more often useful to you than fireball, glitterdust is always handy to have, bladed dash adds mobility and combines very well with spell combat.
Yeah, I'm definitely including all those spells. I'm just thinking that deep marhsal's fireball will probably have more use than the regular magus's fireball until you hit level 14, again because of the extra 2 caster levels.
If I go the dwarf route, what kind of spells can I take full advantage of the "stonesinger" racial ability? It sounds nice to be able to stack with the deep marshal's ability and end up with +3 to your CL on those spells by level 5.
Related: Do you guys think the "extra arcane pool" feat is more useful than normal for a deep marshal, given it gets only 1/3 his level instead of 1/2?
You use the boulder helmet when you use spell combat, but can still spell strike with the reach weapons.
Deep Marshal is as good as the base Magus, and it's extremely better in the early game. Medium Armor right off bat saves you from needing to cast Shield like every other Magus. You got nothing to envy from a base Magus.
The best weapon to me is the Heavy Pick though. x4 crits can end an encounter by itself.
Extra Arcane Pool is as useful as how long the encounter ratio your GM makes.
If not playing PFS, crafting feats are really good for the Deep Marshal.
I'd honestly go Dual Talent Human for +STR +INT. Dual Talent vs. regular Human have the same number of skill ranks (because +2 INT = +1 skill rank per level), and the Dual Talent Human has +1 Arcane Pool Point, +1 DC to spells, and extra spells per day. You simply cannot beat that.
You use the boulder helmet when you use spell combat, but can still spell strike with the reach weapons.
That seems nice enough, but also just feels awkward. Especially when you consider how much this iteration of magus especially relies on enhancement bonuses and arcane pool. I think I'd much prefer to do all my spell combat and spell strike with a single enchanted weapon. Maybe I'd use this at level 1, where my bonuses don't affect caster level quite yet?
The best weapon to me is the Heavy Pick though. x4 crits can end an encounter by itself.
this probably comes down to personal preference. I just feel that it's more satisfying to roll a d8 than a d6, and 4d6+40+14d6 (average 103) isn't too much more likely to end an encounter than 3d8+30+14d6 (average 92.5), you know?
If not playing PFS, crafting feats are really good for the Deep Marshal.
Not PFS, but I also don't have much experience with crafting. What makes it especially good for a deep marshal?
I'd honestly go Dual Talent Human for +STR +INT. Dual Talent vs. regular Human have the same number of skill ranks (because +2 INT = +1 skill rank per level), and the Dual Talent Human has +1 Arcane Pool Point, +1 DC to spells, and extra spells per day. You simply cannot beat that.
Ohh, that's a really good point. I'm essentially trading one feat for misc bonuses that seem to add up to being more valuable than a feat. Makes me swing a bit back towards human. Now I'm pretty much on the fence between dwarf and human. Argh!
Not PFS, but I also don't have much experience with crafting. What makes it especially good for a deep marshal?
The fact that, unlike other Magus, you can cast Fabricate/Minor Creation/Major Creation to get components and materials to create all sorts of Wondrous Items, Wands, Staves, Weapons and Armor.
Plus perhaps your GM allows you to use Profession (miner) to obtain materials too. Mithral/adamantine is expensive shit.
this probably comes down to personal preference. I just feel that it's more satisfying to roll a d8 than a d6, and 4d6+40+14d6 (average 103) isn't too much more likely to end an encounter than 3d8+30+14d6 (average 92.5), you know?
At 10ish level? Sure.
At 1st level? 4d6+20 (34) is quite a bit more than 3d8+15 (28.5).
D8 hp, FCB not to hp, without the best layer of defence (mirror image , displacement that last until goes have true sight ) and a front line ? Gets you killed .
Opportunity costs, brah. You are not forced to spend so much on DEX so that means you can pump CON and pick up Toughness.
Blink is a sort of substitute for displacement, it's why I mentioned it above. And as a dwarf you might as well put the FCB to hp; it's just the human that gets a better option.
Anyway, magus spells with the Earth descriptor. There's not that many sadly, and fewer still with much CL dependence. Thunderstomp (& Greater) stands out, if you get to high level Wall of stone and Transmute rock to mud will be affected in area at least, and Stone discus may get extra missiles earlier (tho' I'd generally go with scorching ray by preference anyway - touch attacks are that much easier.)
There are a few sor/wiz abjuration spells which aren't on the magus list and which might be useful. Protection from arrows, Life bubble and, oddly enough, a bunch of mediative spells in the Divine Anthology which you cast at the start of the day and which you can later discharge for some useful effect.
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Since it's been mentioned: Deep Marshall is not PFS legal.
Why is beyond me...
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Looking at it, I'm definitely noticing a big loss like mirror image, then there's greater invisibility, invisibility, and displacement, but you also gain protection from energy, protection from (alignment), Resist energy, globe of invulnerability (and lesser), stunning barrier (and greater),
Yes, but note that a regular Magus can pick up these abjurations via Spell Blending, whereas the marshal is flat-out forbidden from casting illusions. Also, as a melee defense, the former group is just better. You do gain some nice utility spells, but you also lose other utilities like Silent Image.
I still don't think the deep marshal better than the base magus, but I'm also not convinced that its much worse.
It's not much worse. It just has several downsides, and its main perk is matching (not even topping) the damage output of a scimitar crit-fisher. And that's only until level 6, where your shocking grasp caps out.
You use the boulder helmet when you use spell combat, but can still spell strike with the reach weapons.
Technically yes, but as a Magus you want to use spell combat as often as possible, because of action economy. That means no longaxes.
Blink is a sort of substitute for displacement,
It's not so good on a melee character, as it makes you miss your own attacks.
Deep Marshal is as good as the base Magus,
That's completely wrong. The only bonus you get at low level is +2 to AC, and in exchange you get a weaker weapon, reduced movement rate, no arcana until level 6, and no Vanish and Mirror Image. That's still not bad or anything, but it is very obviously a downgrade.
The fact that, unlike other Magus, you can cast Fabricate/Minor Creation/Major Creation
These spells don't actually help you when crafting magical items. Heck, two of them even disappear after a couple hours. So no, the marshal is not better at crafting (nor is he worse).
It's not much worse. It just has several downsides, and its main perk is matching (not even topping) the damage output of a scimitar crit-fisher. And that's only until level 6, where your shocking grasp caps out.
wouldn't your shocking grasp only cap out at level 8, and then level 9 is when the base magus still gets some progression but the deep marshal does not?
Even then, the deep marshal that hits level 9 gets a sudden boost in scorching ray, and his fireballs are still more powerful. I'm just continually getting this nagging feeling that since you're not crit-fishing anymore, you might as well treat your spellstrikes as your main single target damage output, and then take advantage of your increased ability to blast people.
Yes, but note that a regular Magus can pick up these abjurations via Spell Blending, whereas the marshal is flat-out forbidden from casting illusions. Also, as a melee defense, the former group is just better. You do gain some nice utility spells, but you also lose other utilities like Silent Image.
I'm not too savvy of the wizard spell list, so I don't really have much to go on here, but shouldn't there be at least something that you can pick up from the wizard conjuration, divinitation, evocation, or transmutation pool that might make up the difference?
You use the boulder helmet when you use spell combat, but can still spell strike with the reach weapons.Technically yes, but as a Magus you want to use spell combat as often as possible, because of action economy. That means no longaxes.
Sure, you want to spell combat as much as possible, but the reality is that you won't be able to a lot of the time. And you can also consider reach as being another form of defense, which this archetype needs.
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wouldn't your shocking grasp only cap out at level 8, and then level 9 is when the base magus still gets some progression but the deep marshal does not?
There's the feat Spell Specialization.
I'm not too savvy of the wizard spell list, so I don't really have much to go on here, but shouldn't there be at least something that you can pick up from the wizard conjuration, divinitation, evocation, or transmutation pool that might make up the difference?
I would be happy to hear suggestions. There's still Stoneskin and Ward Shield at levels 10 and up, of course. But after Illusion (and the Shield spell) your best defenses are necromancy (Defending Bone, False Life) which the marshal can't use either.
Sure, you want to spell combat as much as possible, but the reality is that you won't be able to a lot of the time.
That's not my experience. I suggest building a Magus towards spell combat, not towards backup plans if spell combat doesn't work. I agree that reach is very good, and there's several ways to combine reach with SC.
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Since it's been mentioned: Deep Marshall is not PFS legal.
Why is beyond me...
Magus archetypes which are weaker than the standard magus, but are more interesting, seem to always get banned. Eldritch Archer, Deep Marshall, etc. Makes me sad - I enjoyed my crit-fisher magus as I was just starting out in PFS but I'd like to do a second magus who does something a little more interesting this time - but the two most fun archetypes for the idea (both of which are much less powerful and versatile than the insane crit magus DPR) got banned.
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Magus archetypes which are weaker than the standard magus, but are more interesting, seem to always get banned. Eldritch Archer,
What makes you think EA is weaker than the standard Magus?
Interesting and effective archetypes that are not banned include Card Caster, Eldritch Scion, Magic Warrior, Mindblade, and Puppetmaster.
Okay, so I've modified my build to go up to level 12. I won't be doing magic items, just assuming that I'm maximizing my weapon bonus and armor as well as going for the standard defensive options.
Human Deep Marshal
STR 20 (15+racial+levels)
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 18 (16+racial)
WIS 10
CHA 8
(gives you 6 skill points per level b/c dual talent)
12 points of human favored class ability for a total of 3 extra arcane pool, added to level/3+4 = 11 total.
Magical lineage: Shocking grasp
Metamagic Master: Shocking grasp
Feats:
1: Spell Focus (evocation)
3: Spell Specialization (Shocking Grasp)
5: Power Attack (interchangeable with spell specialization; just preference)
5 Bonus: Intensify Spell
7: Toughness
Special: level 8, switch spell specialization to Fireball
9: Dodge
11: Dimensional Agility
11 Bonus: Empower Spell
Arcana:
6: Arcane Accuracy
9: Hasted Assault
12: Maximized Magic
Spells, not including extras that you pick up in your travels:
1:
Shocking Grasp
Shield
Grease
Protection from Evil
Endure Elements
Blade Tutor's Spirit
Magic Missile
Ironbeard(Not particularly good, I just think it's hilarious for a dwarf or dwarf archetype to violently apply beards to peoples faces with a hammer.)
Expeditious Retreat
True Strike
Rite of Centered Mind
2:
Resist Energy
Scorching Ray
Bear's Endurance
Glitterdust
Ablative Barrier
Defensive Shock
3:
Protection from Energy
Fly
Haste
Fireball
Shining Cord
Slow
4:
Black Tentacles
Stoneskin
Shield of Dawn
Dimension Door
Caustic Blood
Globe of Invulnerability
Given both the strengths and weaknesses of the deep marshal, I decided to pick a selection of spells with both those aspects in mind. They either take advantage of the higher caster level available to the deep marshal, increase his defenses, punish enemies for attacking you, or some combination thereof.
For arcana choices, They're simply ways to augment offense to make up for the focus on defensive spells.
Feats seem pretty straightforward. I did have two extra slots, which were spent on dodge and toughness for more defenses.
Are there any horribly obvious details that I missed?
You forgot Bladed Dash - it really is too good to miss. Also, Protection from Arrows would have a place on my spell list. Bear's Endurance and Defensive Shock could go to make room maybe, if you're not interested in buying scrolls for more.
Black Tentacles is passing its use-by date by the time you get it. Maybe get Wall of Ice instead for some battlefield control? & swap out Shield of Dawn for Firewalker's Meditation or Monstrous Physique II IMO.
You forgot Bladed Dash
D'OH
Yes. Yes I did.
Also, Protection from Arrows would have a place on my spell list. Bear's Endurance and Defensive Shock could go to make room maybe, if you're not interested in buying scrolls for more.
Hmm. It looks like we're starting to go into "buy some scrolls" territory. I really only feel like I'd want to give up defensive shock from that.
Black Tentacles is passing its use-by date by the time you get it. Maybe get Wall of Ice instead for some battlefield control? & swap out Shield of Dawn for Firewalker's Meditation or Monstrous Physique II IMO.
I don't like firewalker's meditation, or meditation spells in general, because they make me want to use them every day but then the GP cost makes me say "eww no".
I did miss monstrous phisique, though, never caught that natural armor bonus. I think I'll make that trade.
For a Dwarf, I was wondering about the option of Dwarven Dorn Dergar (Dwarven Chain Flail). This starts out as a two-handed Exotic weapon that Dwarves get to treat as martial and that has pretty good base damage, and can switch between reach and non-reach modes as a Move action. When you get Dorn Dergar Master (unfortunately has feat tax of Two-Weapon Fighting), you can use it one-handed, although switching modes is a Full-Round action. When you get Darting Viper, you can switch between reach and non-reach modes faster (Move --> Swift and Full-Round --> Move).
Unfortunately, the feat cost to make it work is quite high (and both feats require BAB +4), close to that of using a Whip, so it's understandable that nobody mentioned it. But it does let a Dwarven Deep Marshal (eventually) get Reach while being able to use Spell Combat.
Both Long arm and Swordmaster's Flair are simpler ways to get reach going for a magus.
If you did want to be a Crafter, then the Soulforger does stack with Deep Marshal IIRC and there is some flavor synergy there as well. And if you worship Torag there is a least one hammer that helps speed up crafting. Though it seems like that might not be what you're after.
Anyone else disappointed that Deep Marshals don't gain access to the Pit line of spells? I spent the better part of 3 hours building a Deep Marshal around bullrushing foes into Pits just to discover they don't gain the ability to cast them.