Two Weapon Fighting and Thrown Weapons?


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm pretty sure the answer's yes, but I wanted to double check, I was thinking of making a thrown weapon user, and needed to see if I'm able to use Two Weapon Fighting with thrown weapons, specifically I was looking at using TWF and shuriken, if that makes any difference.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I see no reason it shouldn't work. Two Weapon Fighting functions just fine with throwing weapons, and to the best of my knowledge has since 3.5.


You'll want Quick Draw to throw more than 2 weapons/round

Oh wait, you said Shuriken which are drawn as ammunition...nevermind.


For yet more attacks, and penalties, you can TWF and rapid shot with thrown weapons.


Java Man wrote:
For yet more attacks, and penalties, you can TWF and rapid shot with thrown weapons.

Rapid Shot only works with ranged weapons. Not all thrown weapons are ranged weapons. Some are melee weapons that just happen to be throwable (dagger, handaxe), while some are ranged weapons (darts, javelins)


If a weapon has a listed range, it is a ranged weapon, regardless weather or not it can be uaed in melee.

Such as daggers.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

If a weapon has a listed range, it is a ranged weapon, regardless weather or not it can be uaed in melee.

Such as daggers.

Incorrect.

Quote:
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

If it has a range increment and is effective in melee, it is a melee weapon.

If it has a range increment but is not effective in melee, it is a ranged weapon.


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Note to self, once you attach a bayonet [ring, not plug] to a crossbow or rifle it is no longer a ranged weapon >_>


Well, since the OP is looking at shuriken, rapid shot would apply.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Note to self, once you attach a bayonet [ring, not plug] to a crossbow or rifle it is no longer a ranged weapon >_>

AS far as I am aware, there are no ring bayonets in Pathfinder. All would be plug bayonets and do render the ranged weapon unable to fire.

Yes, I know the rules don't make sense. A weapon that can be used at range is not necessarily a ranged weapon, but those are the rules.


Jeraa wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

If a weapon has a listed range, it is a ranged weapon, regardless weather or not it can be uaed in melee.

Such as daggers.

Incorrect.

Quote:
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

If it has a range increment and is effective in melee, it is a melee weapon.

If it has a range increment but is not effective in melee, it is a ranged weapon.

That sentence can be parsed two ways:

Ranged weapons are (thrown weapons or projectile weapons) that are not effective in melee.

or

Ranged weapons are (thrown weapons) or (projectile weapons that are not effective in melee).

The second reading would mean that all thrown weapons count as ranged weapons.


Jeraa wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

If a weapon has a listed range, it is a ranged weapon, regardless weather or not it can be uaed in melee.

Such as daggers.

Incorrect.

Quote:
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

If it has a range increment and is effective in melee, it is a melee weapon.

If it has a range increment but is not effective in melee, it is a ranged weapon.

Oh snap, once you take Empty Quiver Style, your bow is no longer a ranged weapon.


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Rules pop up in the strangest places....

Weapons come in two basic categories: melee and ranged. Some of the weapons listed as melee weapons can also be used as ranged weapons. In this case, their enhancement bonuses apply to both melee and ranged attacks.

So, melee effectiveness is explicitly no bar to ranged-ness. This should cover most thrown weapons, I think.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Okay, thanks everyone. Figured it wouldn't be a problem but I've been known to miss rules before. Glad I didn't this time. I'll just make certain to have a spiked gauntlet to cover threatening in melee.

Sovereign Court

My question is: two weapon fighting requires your to wield the weapon, if it is thrown (as in, you made an attack and no longer in hand) is it still wielded?

What if you have QuickDraw?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

The weapon had to be wielded before it could be thrown (assuming you're not using a spell or special ability that says otherwise).

Quickdraw allows iterative attacks with thrown weapons that can't normally be drawn as a free action.

Let's say you've got a BAB of +6, giving you iterative attacks as +6/+1. You start with a dagger in each hand. You elect to TWF. Without quickdraw, you'd get your main-hand attack and your off-hand attack, but you'd lose your iterative as your hands are now empty and it would take a move action to draw another dagger. With quickdraw, you can draw a third dagger as a free action and then take your iterative attack.

With shuriken, they are treated as ammunition wich is a free action to draw anyway, so you could get all three of your attacks even without quickdraw by going dagger, dagger, shuriken. However, this would leave you empty-handed until next round.


You can definitely two weapon fight with thrown weapons, but just note it's extremely feat intensive and difficult to pull off. You need most of the feats people take for archery, plus extra feats.


Just be a monk, Flurry of Blows essentially gives two weapon fighting to monk weapons while Flurry of Blowing. Because of the wording on Flurry, because its used for both melee and ranged, you can work around most of the wording issues brought up in this thread.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Flurry was an idea, but I need at least 4 levels of fighter to make my concept work, to take Weapon Master for Shuriken, then Fighter's Focus with the Shuriken to upgrade the damage from 1d2s to 1d6s or higher.


you could also be a barbarian with power attack who throws great swords at people for massive damage :) with belt of hurling you can use str to hit with the throwing greatsword and enchant it with returning so you can full attack with a +16/+9 for 2d6+20ish dmg at lvl 6 with power attack or if your a two handed fighter it would be +16/+9 for 2d6+24ish


Yes, except

[...] You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. [...]

and
Returning Weapon wrote:
[...] It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). [...]

So you would need at least two Returning Greatswords (or attack once, then throw it) and you would not get the Power Attack bonus on the thrown attacks. Plus, if the target is in meele, you take -4 to attack and a Range increment of 10 ft. isn't great either (given the Belt of Mighty Hurling can add Range to a weapon, that does not have a Range, which breaks down to "Can you throw a Weapon that does not have a Range?"). And if you are within melee range of your opponents when you try to throw your Greatsword, you will be the subject of Attacks of Opportunity.


turing85 wrote:

Yes, except

Power Attack wrote:
[...] You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. [...]

and
Returning Weapon wrote:
[...] It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). [...]

So you would need at least two Returning Greatswords (or attack once, then throw it) and you would not get the Power Attack bonus on the thrown attacks. Plus, if the target is in meele, you take -4 to attack and a Range increment of 10 ft. isn't great either (given the Belt of Mighty Hurling can add Range to a weapon, that does not have a Range, which breaks down to "Can you throw a Weapon that does not have a Range?"). And if you are within melee range of your opponents when you try to throw your Greatsword, you will be the subject of Attacks of Opportunity.

did some looking into it and it wouldnt work for fighter but would still work for barbarian take the hurling archetype(trades fast movement for +10 range increment) and the hurling rage powers yes you wouldn't be able to get a 2nd attack but then you can throw huge sized objects or gargantuan size objects if your enlarged and allows power attack as a 2h weapon. combined with two handed thrower and quick draw you could potentially get a full attack off as long as you have multiple greatswords


With Ricochet Toss, you can throw your weapon, recover it, take a 5 ft step to make melee attacks with the same weapon provided it is a ranged weapon and you have weapon training with, so you are in line with the TWF requirements and you can even use rapid shot to have additionnal attacks (with a hefty - 4 to your attack) but you can, according to the rules.


you could be a monk and flurry with shurukin instead would save some feats

Sovereign Court

Or far strike monk, flurry with any thrown weapon. And QuickDraw for free. However, no rapid shot with far strike monk flurry.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yes, I could be a monk and do it, but, as I said, that would leave me with 1d2 damage. I'm all for options that aren't quite as powerful in favor of flavor, but I'm not a gunslinger, and so don't feel like shooting myself in the foot that badly.

Scarab Sages

You could be a sohei monk. They have weapon training to allow you to both add more damage to the shuriken and also qualify for AWT.

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