Monk or Unchained Monk for a Scaled Fist?


Advice

Sovereign Court

I can't decide whether I should use the core Monk class or the Unchained Monk class for a Scaled Fist Monk I'm building for a game tonight.

We've all rolled stats using the Heroic rolls and I've rolled pretty well, hence me choosing to go Monk in the first place:

STR 16 DEX 18 CON 15 INT 11 WIS 15 CHA 16 (with a +2 from one of the setting's custom races).

I'll probably combine the core Monk with the Quiggong Monk archetype if I choose it.

I can't decide if the benefits of the Unchained Monk outweigh the disadvantages compared to normal Monk, and would appreciate any advice :)


I'll point out that the Unchained Monk hits more reliably, has better HP, and has access to all of the Qingong powers anyways.

Sovereign Court

d'Eon wrote:
I'll point out that the Unchained Monk hits more reliably, has better HP, and has access to all of the Qingong powers anyways.

I'm mostly worried about the low Will save, I have to admit.


True. Sadly martials can't have nice things.


Leandro Garvel wrote:
d'Eon wrote:
I'll point out that the Unchained Monk hits more reliably, has better HP, and has access to all of the Qingong powers anyways.
I'm mostly worried about the low Will save, I have to admit.

I wouldn't be. Monks are partially wisdom bases, get +2 against some of the most common, and crippling, will based effects, can get remove fear (uasable even when panicked!) as a power, and enough bonus feats to make iron/improved iron will no trouble at all. Really, people overstate the poor will save on the Unchained Monk. Yeah, it isn't as good as the regular monk in that regard, but it's good enough; the other upgrades it gets are well worth the trade.

Sovereign Court

Prince Yyrkoon wrote:
Leandro Garvel wrote:
d'Eon wrote:
I'll point out that the Unchained Monk hits more reliably, has better HP, and has access to all of the Qingong powers anyways.
I'm mostly worried about the low Will save, I have to admit.
I wouldn't be. Monks are partially wisdom bases, get +2 against some of the most common, and crippling, will based effects, can get remove fear (uasable even when panicked!) as a power, and enough bonus feats to make iron/improved iron will no trouble at all. Really, people overstate the poor will save on the Unchained Monk. Yeah, it isn't as good as the regular monk in that regard, but it's good enough; the other upgrades it gets are well worth the trade.

In this case, it's because Scaled Fist is CHA based rather than WIS based, but I take your point. I'll suffer the lower save until I can boost my defences I guess.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Feat: Steadfast Personality. Fixes the Will save.

Unchained is worth it for Scaled Fist with or without Steadfast Personality.

Sovereign Court

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Keep in mind though that there's an error in Steadfast Personality. It only applies to mind-affecting things. Clarified in FAQ

Still a worthwhile feat, but it won't protect you from Glitterdust, Magic Jar, Major Image or Slow.


Since this is incompatible with sohei, I would say go with unchained.

I am usually against unmonks, but that is because sohei have the general numbers, and they can survive having less MAD stats since they can just grab regular armor during their squishier period at low levels.

But if you can't have sohei...then you might as well go with the one that has better numbers for melee than a core, unarchetyped monk. I will admit that the will save is an issue. You will have to bandage it like any fighter would.


Leandro Garvel wrote:
Prince Yyrkoon wrote:
Leandro Garvel wrote:
d'Eon wrote:
I'll point out that the Unchained Monk hits more reliably, has better HP, and has access to all of the Qingong powers anyways.
I'm mostly worried about the low Will save, I have to admit.
I wouldn't be. Monks are partially wisdom bases, get +2 against some of the most common, and crippling, will based effects, can get remove fear (uasable even when panicked!) as a power, and enough bonus feats to make iron/improved iron will no trouble at all. Really, people overstate the poor will save on the Unchained Monk. Yeah, it isn't as good as the regular monk in that regard, but it's good enough; the other upgrades it gets are well worth the trade.
In this case, it's because Scaled Fist is CHA based rather than WIS based, but I take your point. I'll suffer the lower save until I can boost my defences I guess.

Ah. Didn't realize that bit. Stll, you have a good wisdom. I'd take iron will first level. That should keep thing good for a while. And, as has been mentioned, steadfast personality, while not perfect, will be a huge help to you.


Unchained monk all day.

Some of the worse things a will save can provoke on you is fear or paralysis, and you can avoid those with your Dragon Style bonuses.

Since you have good wisdom, picking up iron will should be all you need.

Scarab Sages

It really depends on what you want to do. Monks have higher will saves and access to things unchained doesn't get, making them a martial controller almost (plus most of the archetypes are almost exclusive to chained monks) Unchained monks are big best sticks that hit hard and more reliably, and sacred fists get best of both worlds when fully buffed, but can't go all day due to limited resources, plus they are more fort based than reflex based. While they have the same feel, they don't have the same rolls.

Melee control
Melee beatstick
Melee fighter with a few spells and healing.

Choose which sounds better to you. It's not like chained vs unchained rogue where one is outright better, there are upsides and downsides to each choice.


There are literally no upsides to Core Monk over UnMonk. The "higher Will save" doesn't exist in practice.


Secret Wizard wrote:
There are literally no upsides to Core Monk over UnMonk. The "higher Will save" doesn't exist in practice.

In this case, yes. The usual advantage of core monk is 'all the archetypes that do not work with unmonk'.

But since this is a situation where we are talking about an archetype that could be used by either version, and the archetype probably doesn't stack with most of the core monk's archetypes... then yeah, it is far less of a concern.


I do consider that the UnMonk is particularly better than the CRB Monk for Scaled Fists in that you can still get Quivering Palm and keep full CMB/CMD while obtaining its benefits.


Secret Wizard wrote:
I do consider that the UnMonk is particularly better than the CRB Monk for Scaled Fists in that you can still get Quivering Palm and keep full CMB/CMD while obtaining its benefits.

True, scaled fist does trade away the ability that gives core monks the fake full BAB for stuff like that.


Secret Wizard wrote:
There are literally no upsides to Core Monk over UnMonk. The "higher Will save" doesn't exist in practice.

Of course it does. Monk has Good Will Saves, Unchained Monk does not. Not only that but Unchained Monk gets Still Mind a level later.

Yes, Unchained Monk can take iron Will. So can Monk.

Dragon Style does provide nice bonuses, but both versions can take it.


He's saying by opportunity costs.
Core has less wisdom to afford more con and/or dex. Lower wisdom is less will bonus.
Yes core can take iron will, but it "needs" more feats to function that unchained. Like how many core monks did you see take iron will?
So while yes core monk COULD have had higher, secret believes that with choices you actually make in practice you don't see much difference.

Scarab Sages

Secret Wizard wrote:
There are literally no upsides to Core Monk over UnMonk. The "higher Will save" doesn't exist in practice.

There are also the considerations of changes to monk powers. They removed the outright immunity to poison and replaced it with the ability to use the appropriate spell to remove the poison, after they have already affected you, and you have to make a monk level check versus the DC. And you have to spend those ki points, of which a Umonk gets no more than a CRB Monk. Same thing happened with high jump and slow fall.

There are also builds that make use of Archetypes of the monk for which the Umonk is inappropriate.


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How would a Paladin (Enlightened) mix with the UCMonk (Scaled Fists).

I was just looking at P2/UM3.

The Paladin would get a class ability called Confident Defense. Would that stack with the AC Bonus (Chr) the Scaled Fist would get. If it stacks, then that would increase AC by at least an extra +2 assuming a 14 Chr.

Obviously, the Paladin's Divine Grace would give Chr to Saves.

M1) Dragon Style BF, WpF (Unarmed Strike) LF, Power Attack HF
M2) Dodge BF
P3) Furious Focus LF
P4)
M5) Dragon Ferocity LF

I don't know, is this an accepted multiclass cure for the low will save?

Sovereign Court

Thanks for the advice, everybody! I went Unchained Monk in the end, and am definitely enjoying the new Flurry of Blows :D

Sovereign Court

Secret Wizard wrote:
There are literally no upsides to Core Monk over UnMonk. The "higher Will save" doesn't exist in practice.

Your guide was very helpful, and swayed me to UnMonk, so thanks :)


I'll concede that poison immunity is sorely missed.

Leandro Garvel wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
There are literally no upsides to Core Monk over UnMonk. The "higher Will save" doesn't exist in practice.
Your guide was very helpful, and swayed me to UnMonk, so thanks :)

Great to hear!

I've been engaged in a scorched earth policy against the CRB Monk for quite some time.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Quote:
There are also builds that make use of Archetypes of the monk for which the Umonk is inappropriate.

Though for the purposes of this scenario, the only archetype that Scaled Fist actually stacks with is monk of the iron mountain.


BTW if we are talking about Steadfast Personality, let´s not forget the Irrepressible trait. For the cost of one faith trait, it straight up says you can use charisma instead of wisdom for will saves vs charms and compulsions, without the caveat from Steadfast Personality about taking the penalties from a low wisdom if you have them.


Why are people talking about Steadfast Personality and such when dude has 15 WIS? Just taking Iron Will will do the job.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

With those stats, using charisma instead of wisdom for Will saves would only net him a +1 bonus, so Iron Will is better. Now if he could get charisma as well as wisdom to saves somehow, that would be a +3 bonus.


Driver_325yards wrote:

How would a Paladin (Enlightened) mix with the UCMonk (Scaled Fists).

I was just looking at P2/UM3.

The Paladin would get a class ability called Confident Defense. Would that stack with the AC Bonus (Chr) the Scaled Fist would get. If it stacks, then that would increase AC by at least an extra +2 assuming a 14 Chr.

Obviously, the Paladin's Divine Grace would give Chr to Saves.

M1) Dragon Style BF, WpF (Unarmed Strike) LF, Power Attack HF
M2) Dodge BF
P3) Furious Focus LF
P4)
M5) Dragon Ferocity LF

I don't know, is this an accepted multiclass cure for the low will save?

I'm pretty sure the AC bonus wouldn't stack, since generally you can't apply the same bonus to a stat more than once (unless you have an ability explicitly stating otherwise, like Mindchemist's Perfect Recall ability).

Sovereign Court

I'm probably just going to take Iron Will when I have a spare feat, unless I happen upon a Circlet of Persuasion and Steadfast Personality makes the saves it affects a Cha check? (Not sure about that...)


if you replace the base stat used then it is based on the new stat at time of roll. So if your will save is charisma based by having your charisma swapped in for your wisdom then it is a charisma based check and gets the bonus from the circlet.


No. A Saving Throw is not a check.


check

Check: A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws.

The PRD seems to disagrees with you, they say that saving throws are a common type of check. Now why would they say they are a common type of check if they weren't checks at all?


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Saving Throws are a check, but they aren't a Wisdom check. It's a Will check, modified by Wisdom (but this last part can be changed).


I'm starting to actually hate Paizo. I checked the Saving Throw section on the PRD and there is not a single mention of the word "check" in it.


Rather than use Steadfast Personality, I usually just grab the Irrepressible trait. You lose out on the bonus for a few situations (fear is probably the most common one), but it covers things pretty well.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Saving Throws are a check, but they aren't a Wisdom check. It's a Will check, modified by Wisdom (but this last part can be changed).

According to the FAQ on checks, a will save is a wisdom check if its modified by Wisdom.


Trump For President wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Saving Throws are a check, but they aren't a Wisdom check. It's a Will check, modified by Wisdom (but this last part can be changed).
According to the FAQ on checks, a will save is a wisdom check if its modified by Wisdom.

It's not. If it were, an attack roll would be a strength check.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Trump For President wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Saving Throws are a check, but they aren't a Wisdom check. It's a Will check, modified by Wisdom (but this last part can be changed).
According to the FAQ on checks, a will save is a wisdom check if its modified by Wisdom.
It's not. If it were, an attack roll would be a strength check.

It is(or rather, to be technical its a strength based check, not a strength check, I should have said wisdom based check on will save).

For the same reasons initiative is a dexterity based check.

It doesn't matter for most cases because few things modified ability based checks, but it does matter for circlet of persuasion.


an attack roll is a str based check or dex based or wis based or now possibly int based or charisma based. I'm not aware of any way to make it a con based check though.


QuidEst wrote:
Rather than use Steadfast Personality, I usually just grab the Irrepressible trait. You lose out on the bonus for a few situations (fear is probably the most common one), but it covers things pretty well.

As far as I know, steadfast personality = irrepressible. Actually if you have a negative WIS bonus, irrepressible> steadfast personality. From ACG FAQ:

Steadfast Personality: In the current version (2nd printing errata), the table and the text are inconsistent. Does the feat apply on all Will saves, or on Will saves against mind-affecting effects?
The table is correct. It only applies against mind-affecting effects.

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