So, the Divine Fighting Technique feat is pretty rad, and I'm still reading though all of them, but it seems the optional prerequisite allows bards to take the feat in place of one of their Versatile Performances (inferring this from the optional prerequisite for Erastil's for rangers). The wording is a little goofy, so I really want clarification on that.
That said, I can't otherwise see a meaning behind the optional prerequisite, since you would otherwise still need to take the feat which on its own grants the benefit(s). Also, the actual benefits are pretty ridiculous, however are there any bard archetypes (or other ways really) to grant proficiency with the starknife other than burning a feat? Opalescent White Pyramids notwithstanding (because I don't like relying on items)?
Am I reading this wrong? How about a Paladin with a questionable DM (like me) who uses home-made deities who may or may not have a Desna equivalent who allows paladins?
Contributor
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Varisian Tattoo (the trait, not the feat) is your friend. ^_^
As for paladins... this content was written for Golarion, and using it in other settings may open unintended combinations. I recommend that GMs consider whether this is appropriate for the setting they're using.
Varisian Tattoo (the trait, not the feat) is your friend. ^_^
As for paladins... this content was written for Golarion, and using it in other settings may open unintended combinations. I recommend that GMs consider whether this is appropriate for the setting they're using.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Nothing keeping you from being a Paladin of a CG deity, Paladins aren't required by the rules to stay within one alignment step of the deity they worship. Paladins get their powers from elemental forces of goodness and law, not from the Gods themselves.
So a Paladin of Desna is pretty much just a Paladin who worships Desna (and reconciles the Law/Chaos thing somehow) and/or has some sort of official sanction from the church.
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Nothing keeping you from being a Paladin of a CG deity, Paladins aren't required by the rules to stay within one alignment step of the deity they worship. Paladins get their powers from elemental forces of goodness and law, not from the Gods themselves.
So a Paladin of Desna is pretty much just a Paladin who worships Desna (and reconciles the Law/Chaos thing somehow) and/or has some sort of official sanction from the church.
There would be way too much conflict involved for a Paladin to worship a CG deity. And that's if you're going off the assumption that they don't get anything at all from the Deity they worship.
Grey Paladins (despite the incoming influx of posts about how important Divine Grace is) could do it easily.
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I don't think it's remotely incongruous for a Paladin who is primarily concerned with freedom, opposing oppression, and the safety of travelers, who loves stargazing and butterflies, and believes strongly in the power of luck and dreams to worship Desna.
"I care about what this deity cares about, and I agree for the most part with them" is far more important than alignment in my opinion. Overtly religious characters who have had to work through the apparent inconsistencies or paradoxes of their faith are more interesting (to me at least) than blind adherents.
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Grey Paladins (despite the incoming influx of posts about how important Divine Grace is) could do it easily.
Nope.
A gray paladin can be lawful good, lawful neutral, or neutral good, though she must still follow a lawful good, neutral good, or lawful neutral deity.
This alters the paladin’s alignment restrictions.
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I don't think it's remotely incongruous for a Paladin who is primarily concerned with freedom, opposing oppression, and the safety of travelers, who loves stargazing and butterflies, and believes strongly in the power of luck and dreams to worship Desna.
"I care about what this deity cares about, and I agree for the most part with them" is far more important than alignment in my opinion. Overtly religious characters who have had to work through the apparent inconsistencies or paradoxes of their faith are more interesting (to me at least) than blind adherents.
If you want to play it as such in your games cool.
Going strictly by Pathfinder rules Paladins can't worship Chaotic Deities.
Grey Paladins (despite the incoming influx of posts about how important Divine Grace is) could do it easily.Nope.
A gray paladin can be lawful good, lawful neutral, or neutral good, though she must still follow a lawful good, neutral good, or lawful neutral deity.
This alters the paladin’s alignment restrictions.
Good catch.
So paladins are out by extension, probably a good call on behalf of the devs.
Going strictly by Pathfinder rules Paladins can't worship Chaotic Deities.
Can you cite that rule that a character cannot worship a deity that's more than one step from their alignment? Since there's no rule that requires paladins to worship any god at all as far as I can tell, so there shouldn't be any more restrictions on "who a Paladin worships" than "who a barbarian or monk worships." Like is a Dwarven Barbarian who worships Torag (because Dwarf) not okay?
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Going strictly by Pathfinder rules Paladins can't worship Chaotic Deities.Can you cite that rule that a character cannot worship a deity that's more than one step from their alignment? Since there's no rule that requires paladins to worship any god at all as far as I can tell, so there shouldn't be any more restrictions on "who a Paladin worships" than "who a barbarian or monk worships." Like is a Dwarven Barbarian who worships Torag (because Dwarf) not okay?
Can you point out the rule that says what all actions you can take when you're dead?
*shrugs*
Paladins are divine casters and divine classes, Barbarians and Monks are not.
The Pathfinder rules specifically point out that a Cleric need not worship a particular deity (it just says "work with your GM if you want to worship an abstract concept.") Clerics are divine casters, and they don't need the approval of a specific God in order to access that wellspring of divine power, so I don't know why Paladins would.
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The Pathfinder rules specifically point out that a Cleric need not worship a particular deity (it just says "work with your GM if you want to worship an abstract concept.") Clerics are divine casters, and they don't need the approval of a specific God in order to access that wellspring of divine power, so I don't know why Paladins would.
Which was only kept to remain utterly backwards compatible with 3.5, to the point of I don't know anyone that actually abides by that. Moreso since everyone I know plays in a setting where you have to worship a deity as a cleric.
But I wasn't arguing that Paladin's have to worship a deity, just that they can't worship a CG one. The same restrictions apply if you're playing a cleric and worship a deity, you have to stay within one step of said deity. Paladins have to be LG so that limits what deities they can worship.
You're kinda arguing two different things now, if a cleric doesn't have to specifically worship a deity then a paladin can worship a chaotic deity. Those don't have anything to do with each other.
The Pathfinder rules specifically point out that a Cleric need not worship a particular deity (it just says "work with your GM if you want to worship an abstract concept.") Clerics are divine casters, and they don't need the approval of a specific God in order to access that wellspring of divine power, so I don't know why Paladins would.Which was only kept to remain utterly backwards compatible with 3.5, to the point of I don't know anyone that actually abides by that. Moreso since everyone I know plays in a setting where you have to worship a deity as a cleric.
But I wasn't arguing that Paladin's have to worship a deity, just that they can't worship a CG one. The same restrictions apply if you're playing a cleric and worship a deity, you have to stay within one step of said deity. Paladins have to be LG so that limits what deities they can worship.
This more is an implicit interpretation of the rules inferred by what options are available to paladins, rather than a hard rule supported by the RAW.
However, since Grey Paladin's description has the word "still" in it, I am lead to believe that any paladin who worships a deity must worship a deity with those alignments.
It would also outright ban paladins of Pharasma, which I find odd.
Outside of PFS, I would say table variance is the final answer on this, since we simply don't know as there is no hard rule in text, only the contrapositive interpretation of the Grey Paladin code (so far at least in this thread).
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Neither a Paladin nor a Cleric (nor an Oracle) are required to worship a deity, and yet they are still capable of using divine magic. Thus it seems evident that one can access divine power through means other than "the worship of a god."
Additionally, the condition for a paladin "falling" is not "upset their god" (since they needn't have one) but "violate their code". The things the Paladin code covers are things like "be honorable, trustworthy, help people, don't do evil things."
So why would a Paladin, who worships no god in particular, suffer any sort of ill consequences if he or she said a prayer to Desna for good luck in their forthcoming journey, or a prayer to Gozreh in hopes of good weather for an ocean voyage? After all, pantheistic cultures historically tended to have most people pay obeisance to whichever deity is most relevant to their immediate concerns.
So what's the difference between "A Paladin who prays to Desna with some regularly" and "A Paladin who worships Desna"?
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Neither a Paladin nor a Cleric (nor an Oracle) are required to worship a deity, and yet they are still capable of using divine magic. Thus it seems evident that one can access divine power through means other than "the worship of a god."
Additionally, the condition for a paladin "falling" is not "upset their god" (since they needn't have one) but "violate their code". The things the Paladin code covers are things like "be honorable, trustworthy, help people, don't do evil things."
So why would a Paladin, who worships no god in particular, suffer any sort of ill consequences if he or she said a prayer to Desna for good luck in their forthcoming journey, or a prayer to Gozreh in hopes of good weather for an ocean voyage? After all, pantheistic cultures historically tended to have most people pay obeisance to whichever deity is most relevant to their immediate concerns.
So what's the difference between "A Paladin who prays to Desna with some regularly" and "A Paladin who worships Desna"?
Plenty.
Lip service and worship are two completely different things. If you're a faithful worshippers of a deity then you are either that deities alignment or close to it. The further away you are the less devout you are of said deity.
You forgot about Druids. But I guess we're playing by two different mindsets since you abide by the "clerics don't have to worship a deity" and I don't.
Why would a sincere prayer to Desna "hey, I could use some good luck on this upcoming journey" be "lip service"?
Desna's religion does not say "Hey, be chaotic" (since that's far too abstract for your average person) it says things like "trust in destiny", "wander the roads", "oppose oppression", "pay attention to your dreams", "plant flowers for the butterflies", etc. There's no reason a Lawful character could not also believe all of these things and still be lawful. They may need to somewhat reinterpret scripture to suit their purposes, but this has been the way of many religious people for time immemorial.
Like I see a Paladin with built-in tension between their code of conduct and their admiration for a Chaotic deity who has to ponder things like "how can one tell when is authority legitimate" as a fabulous idea for a character. I'd much rather see overtly religious characters who have had to struggle with their faith than ones who just toe the party line for their God.
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You and I have completely different definitions for worship and lip service.
"somewhat reinterpret scripture to suit their purposes" yeah the 100% real and undeniable existing deity probably wouldn't like that.
And seeing as you you view being faithful as "toeing the party line" and prefer paradoxical situations there's not much else for us to discuss since our interpretations of faith in Pathfinder are vastly incompatible.
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You and I have completely different definitions for worship and lip service.
"somewhat reinterpret scripture to suit their purposes" yeah the 100% real and undeniable existing deity probably wouldn't like that.
Except apocryphal cults and apostasy are already canon things in Golarion and what Cabbage is proposing is far more moderate than something like the cult of the dawnflower.
The trouble I have with your argument Rysky is you're trying to argue both metagame constructs (must worship a deity within one step) and concepts relating to the setting itself and the two of them are pretty incongruous, because nothing with Desna's portfolio is particularly anathema or even disagreeable to a lawful character.
Yes, and those apocryphal cults either don't recieve powers from their gods or they're apocryphal in that there one alignment step from their God rather than the same.
The metagame contrsuct backs up the concepts. You say there's nothing disagreeable with a lawful character? The fact that she's Chaotic disagrees right there.
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Just not in any game I'm running - I agree with Rysky on this one. Paladins follow the 1 step rule.
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I think the salient point is that anybody who has had to use as guidance anything written down by somebody else in a different place or time has had to interpret it (or use other people's interpretations) in order to apply it to their own context. The Torah says not to light a fire in your home on the Sabbath, but does that mean you can't turn on electric lights or use a toaster oven? Ask your Rabbi (some say yes and some say no.) Of all the deities on Golarion Desna's worship is among the least structured, so a certain amount of "interpreting stories for their morals and what they mean to you" is going to be needed by even Chaotic Good worshipers.
The thing I've always seen about alignment is that it's best viewed as an abstraction of a character's values, and questions about "is this compatible with that" should be viewed on the basis of values not on alignment. If you dropped alignment *entirely* all you would lose is things like Detect/Smite/Magic Circle Against [alignment] and absolutely everything else would continue to work the same way.
So take for example a character who, without any reference to their alignment,is honorable, trustworthy, and forthright; would never hurt an innocent person and would protect innocents from harm whenever possible; who loves to travel and who walks the roads in order to keep them safe; who is respectful of local custom, but mindful to abuses of power and looks to thwart all forms of oppression; who puts a lot of stock in prophecy, dreams, and is superstitious in order to maintain their good luck; and who loves stargazing and butterflies. What, about that character I've described, without making reference to alignment, would make it difficult for that character to both worship Desna and be a Paladin?
Like I can see no reason that a Lawful person and a Chaotic person cannot both believe that Freedom is the highest value and simply seeing "how to get to get there" from different perspectives. The Lawful character might observe that some manner of social order and protection from wrongdoers is necessary to be truly free, and the Chaotic character might focus on how "preventing abuses of power is necessary to be truly free." These two people might argue endlessly about minutiae, but they ultimately want the same thing and thus should work together.
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There is nothing in the Paladin class discription that says the Paladin's "alignment must be within one step of her deity’s" (unlike the Cleric's discription, where I took that part from).
The text in Gray Paladin says something different, but quite frankly, Ultimate Intrigue isn't exactly the best edited book in existence. The Metamorph archetype says "This ability replaces alchemy (which also includes bombs, extracts, and mutagen)", where a single blick at the alchemist class tells you that alchemy, bombs and mutagen are three seperate class features. Apperently, the archetype was written without the writer looking at the class.
If the archetype references something not in the original class discription, it's the archetype that's wrong, not the class.
Desna's aphorisms straight out of Inner Sea Gods:
Totally fits a paladin.
Sitting at home doesn't get any evil smitten, so kinda a given for a Paladin.
This actually sounds kinda lawful good to me, so no problem for a Paladin. Would fit a "when in doubt, bump uglies" (wait, that's Calistria... let my try that again) "when in doubt, smite evil" playstyle.
"Don't be a lawful stupid jerk". Should be a rule for any Paladin, in my opinion.
The Lawful-Chaos axis is incredibly vague. Is fighting agains slavery chaotic, or should a Pladin as a paragon of good do just that? Isn't trying to fulfill all of a deity's teachings lawful since you are following a code (and as one can see above, Desna's is even a code of honor)?
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A chaotic deity's beliefs aren't compatible with a Lawful person because they're chaotic.And then you look at the deity's actual portfolio and beliefs and that whole thing falls apart.
Like I said it's a difference between the metagame constructs the world is built upon and the actual world itself.
Everything mentioned just highlights the Good part of Desna, not the Chaotic. Of course Good gets along with Paladins. That's not where the problem is.
It's the Chaotic.
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If you're just going to go off Aphorisms for whether a God can have a Paladin don't forget to include Gorum.
You can Lawful Slavers and Chaotic Slavers, but moreso than Law-Chaos slavery is Evil so Paladins should fight against it.
Following a deity's teachings is whatever Alignemnt the teachings are. You can be Chaotic and have a code of conduct, are you saying Barbarians are incapable of being honorable?
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I posted every aphorism in that section, I didn't leave any out. If I wanted to handpick, I could list more things that totally fit paladins, like her anti-fear stance.
To be honest, I don't really see what makes Desna chaotic. It seems to mostly stem from Desnas focus on wandering and not settling down. If traveling around all the time would make one chaotic, most adventurers would shift towards that.
Edit: First off, I consider Gorum to be evil.
My point about slavery was that fighting for freedom is something good, not chaotic. Compare how most humans rights include the word "freedom".
Are Desna's teachings actually chaotic? ISG even says "The fifth scroll contains the church's words regarding the behavior of mortals, which sparks many friendly debates among the faithful. Desna is a goddess of inherent contradictions; fortunately, her loosely organized church accepts all plausible interpretations of the scrolls that do not radically deviate from standard church teachings." If my Paladin interprets those teachings, in light of not only the aphorisms but also further parts like "[Desna's faithful] are especially dedicated to guarding against the return of ancient, evil gods, and to rooting out cults of Ghlaunder and Lamashtu." to be neutral good, shouldn't that be OK for Desna, her church, and my Paladin's alignment?
The thing is, there's nothing in the rules that says that paladins are limited in what they can worship. Clerics are, but paladins are not clerics, so what applies to clerics specifically does not apply to paladins.
Eh, it's certainly implied to be the intention by the Gray Paladin's requirements that they still worship a deity within one step of LG.
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To be honest, I don't really see what makes Desna chaotic. It seems to mostly stem from Desnas focus on wandering and not settling down. If traveling around all the time would make one chaotic, most adventurers would shift towards that.
I think that Golarion's pantheon really suffered from the same thing they did with the Greyhawk Pantheon in 3.5, shifting them around to make sure that there where a few appealing deity options for each Alignment, so St. Cuthbert went from LG to LN, (but wouldn't allow Evil followers).
The only thing I can really think of, which is kind of a big stretch, is her association with the Lovecraftian elements, but in all honesty, I think it actually works out even better if she was a NG deity, which seems to fit best in my opinion.
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Desna's Shooting Star is actually not a great Feat for a Paladin anyway due to the rule about not stacking an ability on something twice. Using it means that Smite adds nothing (or I guess your Str or Dex mod, though then you can't add Cha to damage) to attack. That's...quite the downside. Plus having to use a starknife, of course (which is a light one-handed weapon, which have their own problems as compared to, say, a greatsword).
So could we move the Paladin discussion elsewhere, since it's pretty irrelevant to the thread's actual topic?
Oh, and for the record, I think the idea of a LG Paladin of Desna is completely absurd and not the way the rules work at all, but the idea of allowing CG Paladins is acceptable and part of my House Rules.
Eh, they waited 8 years to sneak that rule in, not by a definitive statement but instead by off-handedly referring back to a rule that doesn't exist yet? I think it's pretty weak, but okay, I'll cede that one; there's at least a case to be made for alignment-restricted paladin deities by the rules.The thing is, there's nothing in the rules that says that paladins are limited in what they can worship. Clerics are, but paladins are not clerics, so what applies to clerics specifically does not apply to paladins.Eh, it's certainly implied to be the intention by the Gray Paladin's requirements that they still worship a deity within one step of LG.
Ninjas
Other than this clarification, there really isn't any other rule that says so, but I wouldn't disagree with someone interpreting the rules this way. Often times we can look at the codes for paladins and antipaladins to derive the exact rules on how alignment works.
For instance, the very fact that antipaladins have a clause in their code which states they can take actions that others would consider lawful or good, so long as their intention is to further their own means is a hard rule interpretation that player intent 100% matters as far as The Alignment System (aka the One True God) is concerned.
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Varisian Tattoo (the trait, not the feat) is your friend. ^_^
As for paladins... this content was written for Golarion, and using it in other settings may open unintended combinations. I recommend that GMs consider whether this is appropriate for the setting they're using.
It would actually pretty bad for a paladin to use Desna's Shooting Star, because of the new-ish ability score FAQ.
Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.
While smite evil adds a DEFLECTION bonus to AC equal to the paladin's Charisma bonus, allowing it to stack with things like the lore mystery's sidestep secret, smite evil's Charisma bonus to attack rolls is actually untyped, so the bonuses from Desna's Shooting Star and Smite Evil wouldn't stack.
Whether this matters to you is up for debate, but it would likely reduce your attack bonus when you use smite evil.
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Varisian Tattoo (the trait, not the feat) is your friend. ^_^
As for paladins... this content was written for Golarion, and using it in other settings may open unintended combinations. I recommend that GMs consider whether this is appropriate for the setting they're using.
It would actually pretty bad for a paladin to use Desna's Shooting Star, because of the new-ish ability score FAQ.
Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.
While smite evil adds a DEFLECTION bonus to AC equal to the paladin's Charisma bonus, allowing it to stack with things like the lore mystery's sidestep secret, smite evil's Charisma bonus to attack rolls is actually untyped, so the bonuses from Desna's Shooting Star and Smite Evil wouldn't stack.
Whether this matters to you is up for debate, but it would likely reduce your attack bonus when you use smite evil.
Take the new archetype that trades out Smite Evil for Bardic Performance. That's one way around it.
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Too true, Mr. Augunas. I was merely addressing the original question about paladins, in the way that first came to mind.
It's been a long few days. ^_^
I know you know, but I also know that not all of the non-designers know what we know.
It just happened that yours was the first post I saw that mentioned paladins with starknives. ;-)
If you pay attention to the recommended deity line for the oath that uses inspire courage, Desna doesn't appear as one because the developers only included deities within one alignment step of LG. Ultimate magic does say that other deities may allow these oaths.
I just don't see paladin having the best synergy with desna's shooting star, because cranking up CHA for a paladin doesn't give as much of a benefit as bard or oracle with maximizing spell DCs. I mean the damage still won't be that great considering you are using a weapon that does 1-4 x3/20 and you can't benefit from 1.5STR or 3-1 power attack.
Not being reliant on STR opens up the TWF route thanks to it being less MAD. Though it's not a popular option, you could really see some rapid shot/TWF builds that crank up the damage. If you keep smite, you lost the bonus to hit, sure, but that damage really stacks up when you have two weapons going. Smite also still bypasses DR, so what you lose from 1.5 power attack you theoretically gain back from having another attack and may even have Deadly Aim going for it. I know the DPR formula says this is false, but the DPR formula isn't part of the system, merely an attempt to understand it better.
Also, there are plenty of ways to get around low damage dice. At least a few readily available options exist to give characters the warpriests sacred weapon damage with a specified weapon.
I see it being more of a supportive role, since you invest fully in CHA to maximize saves and get more out of Lay on Hands and spellcasting. Plus, you know, Bardic Performance. Flagbearer also seems to be really cool with a Banner of the Ancient Kings, because paladins have full BAB and can make better use of polearms.
This of course is assuming you can even take the feat.
^Which options exist to get Warpriest's Sacred Weapon damage? Only ones I can think of are:
Warpriest's Sacred Weapon (duh)
Ascetic Strike (you have to get the whole Ascetic Style chain of 3 feats before it comes online, and you are still 4 levels behind)
Brawler's Close Weapon Mastery
Weapon Training class feature + Advanced Weapon Training (Focused Weapon) (feat or replacement of further Weapon Training)
Only a few archetypes of classes other than Fighter get Weapon Training (and even a lot of Fighter archetypes trade it out entirely), unless you go VMC Fighter, which isn't bad if your campaign is going to high levels and you are also able to make use of the Armor Training and Bravery, but takes too long to get online for things like PFS and Council of Thieves (and PFS doesn't allow VMC anyway, last time I checked).
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Take the new archetype that trades out Smite Evil for Bardic Performance. That's one way around it.
Oath of the People's Council?
Yeah, that'd work. Of course, at that point you're more a Bard with better saves and BAB but worse spells and skills than a Paladin in the traditional sense.
It's an interesting build (if allowed), but probably not as good as a Lunar Oracle (or other Cha-based full caster) taking Desna's Shooting Star, just for one obvious example.
Ultimate Intrigue isn't exactly the best edited book in existence. The Metamorph archetype says "This ability replaces alchemy (which also includes bombs, extracts, and mutagen)", where a single blick at the alchemist class tells you that alchemy, bombs and mutagen are three seperate class features.
Alchemy (Su)
...An alchemist can create three special types of magical items—extracts, bombs, and mutagens are transformative elixirs that the alchemist drinks to enhance his physical abilities—both of these are detailed in their own sections below.
...
So extracts, bombs, and mutagen are all part of the alchemists alchemy ability.