Racial Points and CR / ECL


Rules Questions


I think that a long time ago I may have already done a question similar to this, but anyway.

1.How does rp influence cr/ecl? If the cr/ecl of a 1st level character with an 11 rp or less race (core races) is equal to her character level (assuming appropriate PC wealth), what would be the cr/ecl of a 1st level character belonging to a race with 42 rp (like the Drow Noble, which has 41 rp)? It surely shouldn't be the same.

2.Whatever your answers might be, let's assume for a moment that the creature's cr/ecl would be augmented by +3 due to its 42 rp, to a total of cr/ecl of 4. How much wealth should this character have? Should the character gain wealth by level according to its final cr or its class levels?


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I'm afraid you've stumbled into the ACG forum. I've flagged your post for movement, but why not have a look around while you're here? It's a mighty fine game...


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Card Game, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'll second The_Napier, the card game is really fun and you should try it :)

I'm assuming you're asking about PCs playing such races, since for NPCs you can really just do what you want. Breaking WBL for an NPC because you want to gear them up a certain way is totally fine, just bump up the CR by 1 if you end up giving them PC-level wealth for their level (class levels).

Take a look at the table "Challenging Advanced and Monstrous Races" in the race builder rules, you can see what APL a party that includes such a race would be, so you can determine encounter difficulty appropriately. If you're allowing a player to be a drow noble, you should let the other players also play monstrous/powerful races of approximately the same power level, so that nobody outshines each other. If everyone is about the same, you don't need to adjust anything level-wise; they start at level 1 and track WBL appropriate for their class levels.

If you have a mix of power levels, things start to become more of an issue. See the Bestiary guidelines for monsters as PCs, treating the CR adjustment as extra character levels. So if a drow noble was playing along with some core races, adjust her by some amount. They're technically only 1 CR more than normal (so a +1 effective level) -- from here: "A drow noble's challenge rating is equal to her class level." whereas regular NPCs have a CR equal to their class level minus 1, but I could see making that +2 or +3 instead, depending on what the other players are doing.

If you're just looking for a drow noble NPC though, CR = class level, and give them NPC WBL based on their class levels. That's easy enough at least.


Hello, there, and thank you for the response. Yes, I do know the card game, is great, but thank you for the tip anyway ^__^

I've just looked at the "Challenging Advanced and Monstrous Races" table and it doesn't make much sense to me that the APL adjustment would diminish in parties with higher APL, because yes, I understand that their race traits start to become less and less relevant in the context of higher level, but they are still objectively more powerful than a character of the same level with a less powerful race, high level or no.

skizzerz wrote:
I'm assuming you're asking about PCs playing such races, since for NPCs you can really just do what you want.

This is not for PCs, this is both for PCs and NPCs. I'm don't wanna just "do what I want" because I want to be able to apply a 40 rp race to both PCs and NPCs, and know that I'm applying the correct CR/ECL to them. A drow noble fighter 1 should have the same CR/ECL, no matter if he is a PC or a NPC (unless, of course, if he is outfitted with NPC wealth, in which case he should get a -1 to CR/ECL).

The reason I'm dwelling on this matter is because I'm adapting the githyanki to Pathfinder as a 42 rp race.

skizzerz wrote:
Breaking WBL for an NPC because you want to gear them up a certain way is totally fine, just bump up the CR by 1 if you end up giving them PC-level wealth for their level (class levels).

I didn't ask about wealth because I want to gear a NPC in a certain way. I asked because I'm unsure if CR 3 is appropriate for the githyanki fighter 1 below having only NPC wealth for level 1:

GITHYANKI SOLDIER CR 3
XP 800
Githyanki fighter 1
NE Medium outsider (extraplanar, gith)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft, Perception +2
Defense
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+2 Dex, +6 breastplate),
hp 14 (1d10+4)
Fort +5, Ref +2, Will -1; +1 vs. fear
Defensive Abilities bravery +1; SR 7
Offense
Speed 20 ft.
Melee greatsword +4 (2d6+3/19–20)
Ranged longbow +3 (1d8/x3)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st)
At will—blur, clairaudience/clairvoyance, dimension door, mage hand, telekinesis
Statistics
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 15
Feats Alertness, Weapon Focus (greatsword)
Skills Craft (armorsmithing or weaponsmithing) +5, Intimidate + 4, Perception +2, Profession (soldier) +3, Sense Motive +1 Soldier Background Skills Intimidate and Profession (soldier)
Languages Githyanki, Common
Ecology
Environment Astral Plane
Organization Company (2–4 3rd-level fighters), squad (11–20 3rd-level fighters, plus 2 7th-level sergeants, 1 9th level captain, and 1 young red dragon), or regiment (30–100 3rd-level fighters, plus 1 7th-level sergeant per 10 members, 5 8th-level lieutenants, 3 9th-level captains, 1 16th level supreme leader, and 1 adult red dragon per 30 members)
Treasure Standard (greatsword, longbow, breastplate, other treasure)

GITHYANKI CHARACTERS [42 racial points]
Githyanki are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Githyanki with NPC wealth have a challenge rating equal to their class levels +2, githyanki with PC wealth have a challenge rating equal to their class levels +3. All githyanki have the following racial traits.

• +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, –2 Wisdom: Githyanki are hearty and agile, but lack intuition and willpower. [1 rp]
• Medium: Githyanki are Medium creatures, and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Normal Speed: Githyanki have a base speed of 30 feet.
• Darkvision: Githyanki can see in the dark out to 60 feet. [2 rp]
• Psionics: A githyanki can cast blur, dimension door, clairaudience/clairvoyance, mage hand, and telekinesis at will as spell-like abilities. In addition, a githyanki of 8th level or higher can use plane shift once per day. The effective caster level for these spell-like abilities equals the githyanki’s class levels. The save DCs are Charisma-based. [36 rp]
• Spell Resistance: A githyanki has spell resistance equal to its class levels + 6. [2 rp]
• Weapon Familiarity: Githyanki are proficient with the greatsword, and treat any weapon with “githyanki” in its name as a martial weapon. [1 rp]
• Languages: Githyanki begin play speaking their own secret language. Githyanki with a high Intelligence score can choose bonus languages from the following: Common, Infernal, Draconic, Undercommon, and Githzerai. [0 rp]


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Card Game, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Stats-wise, except for the 18 AC, that's right in line with a CR 2 encounter (HP is about CR 1 level, but AC is CR 5). Bringing the AC down to 16 I think would bring it much more in line with CR 2.

Now, you have a couple of at-will SLAs that are relevant in combat (blur and dimension door). The former just makes them harder to hit, which I think is fine to keep at CR 2 if you bring AC down to that 15-16 range. If they don't have the dimensional agility feat, then dimension door really cramps their action economy, and I don't think I'd adjust CR for that either.

So, I think I'd make that statblock a CR 2 encounter, personally. That would mean that in general you'd have for a gith CR = class levels + 1, with NPC wealth equal to their class levels.

Since staff is out until Tuesday, you may want to cross-post into the Advice or Homebrew forums for the RPG to get some more opinions on it though in the meantime, since it may be some time before this thread is moved.


Thanks again skizzerz, I will consider CR +1 for the Githyanki. But I will wait a bit for more responses. Luckily the staff has already moved my thread to the correct forum, for that I also give thanks to them ^__^


I've tweaked with the race a bit in order to bring down the rp/cr factor a bit, not sure if what I did is balanced though. The Advanced Race Guide says that at will spell-like abilities cost their levelx2 in racial points, but doesn't develop further in the case of those abilities being usable 3day instead of at will or 1/day. That's why I've made all the githyanki's spell-like abilities usable at will. It also assumes that the race gains all of its spell-likes at once in level 1, without covering races with spell-like abilities that are gained only at higher levels. That's why I cut the price of the two spell-likes gained at level 9 by 25% of their racial point cost. I also eliminated clairvoyance/clairaudience as a spell-like.
Extra question: Do creatures need a minimum ability score to use their spell-like abilities? Like, if I have blur as a sp would I need a minimum Charisma score of 12 in order to use it or is that just for spellcasters?

GITHYANKI SOLDIER CR 2
XP 800
Githyanki fighter 1
NE Medium outsider (extraplanar, gith)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft, Perception +2
--------------------------------------
Defense
--------------------------------------
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+2 Dex, +6 breastplate),
hp 14 (1d10+4)
Fort +5, Ref +2, Will -1; +1 vs. fear
Defensive Abilities bravery +1; SR 7
---------------------------------------
Offense
---------------------------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee greatsword +4 (2d6+3/19–20)
Ranged longbow +3 (1d8/x3)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Psionics (CL 1st, concentration +2)
At will—blur, dimension door, mage hand
----------------------------------------
Statistics
----------------------------------------
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 15
Feats Alertness, Weapon Focus (greatsword)
Skills Craft (armorsmithing or weaponsmithing) +5, Intimidate + 4, Perception +2, Profession (soldier) +3, Sense Motive +1; Soldier Background Skills Intimidate and Profession (soldier)
Languages Gith, Common

GITHYANKI CHARACTERS [32 racial points]
Githyanki are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Githyanki with NPC wealth have a challenge rating equal to their class levels +1, githyanki with PC wealth have a challenge rating equal to their class levels +2. All githyanki have the following racial traits.

• +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, –2 Wisdom Githyanki are hearty and agile, but lack intuition and willpower. [1 rp]
• Medium Githyanki are Medium creatures, and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Normal Speed: Githyanki have a base speed of 30 feet.
• Darkvision Githyanki can see in the dark out to 60 feet. [2 rp]
• Psionics (Sp) A githyanki can use blur, dimension door, and mage hand at will as spell-like abilities. In addition, a githyanki of 9th level or higher can use telekinesis at will and plane shift once per day. The effective caster level for these spell-like abilities is equal to the githyanki’s class level, and the save DCs are Intelligence or Charisma-based, whichever is higher. [blur 4 + ddoor 8 + mhand 1 + telekinesis 8 + pshift 5 = 26 rp]
• Spell Resistance A githyanki has spell resistance equal to its class level + 6. [2 rp]
• Weapon Familiarity Githyanki are proficient with the greatsword, and treat any weapon with “githyanki” in its name as a martial weapon. [1 rp]
• Languages Githyanki begin play speaking the Gith language. Githyanki with a high Intelligence score can choose bonus languages from the following: Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal, and Undercommon. [0 rp]

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