Need input on a CHA-centric Cleric


Advice


So I'm currently playing in a Carrion Crown campaign (no spoilers in this thread) as a Cleric of Sarenrae and for a variety of irrelevant reasons, I've been given permission by the DM to majorly revamp my character for significantly reduced retraining costs/time. My goal is to create a CHA-centric Cleric (still worshiping Sarenrae, but also throwing Desna in there for soon-to-be obvious reasons) that acts as a competent fighter, decently strong healer, and party face (which has already been pretty decently established, I just need the skills to back it up). What I've built HERE is a level 7 version of what I believe to be a decent, working build (we're currently level 5, and the retraining will happen between modules 2 and 3, so level 7). Given the intricacies of the build though, I'd appreciate some general input regarding what people think I've done well/poorly, since I have plenty of time to make changes. Don't mind the messy look of the document, I'm currently trying to build my own character sheet by Frankensteining a few templates from other people (appropriate credit given at the bottom right of the Stats page) together, along with a bunch of macros and custom functions that I wrote.

Some build info:
- Each person in the party is limited to one splatbook in addition to all of the PRG books (mine is Divine Anthology for Desna's Shooting Star)
- CHA to hit and damage is coming from using a starknife with Desna's Shooting Star
- CHA to AC and Reflex is coming from the one level dip in Lore Oracle
- 15-point buy
- Using the Background Skills rules
- Sun and Good domains (Sun for those sweet anti-undead spells and the bonus to channel energy damage, and good for Touch of Good and the ability to add Holy to weapons)
- Party consists of: Paladin, Amnesiac Psychic, Investigator, Spellslinger Wizard, and me

Thanks in advance for any helpful ideas. Just let me know if you have any questions about the build or how my character sheet is getting its values.


I'm not a fan of multiple deity worshiping characters (at least not when it has to do with mechanics). It seems like a smelly cheese to me. It's also not allowed by the 'Divine Fighting Technique' feat: "Must worship a single patron deity that has an established divine fighting technique". I would say that this still applies even if you trade away a domain. But if you and your DM has no qualms with any of it, go ahead.

PS. You just sold me on that book.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

PFS specifically prohibits double dipping on deities, for what would be a very rational balance concern.

Even if a regular person wanted to pay lip service to a couple different deities, a Cleric ought to be faithful to the deity they claim to worship.

Why not just worship Desna, change your domains, and make this much simpler?


Ditch Desna and Sarenrae. Worship an Elder God instead! http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cler ic-archetypes/elder-mythos-cultist-cleric-archetype

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Saethori wrote:
Even if a regular person wanted to pay lip service to a couple different deities, a Cleric ought to be faithful to the deity they claim to worship.

Clerics being limited to a single deity has been the way Golarion worked since I can remember. If the GM allows it, though, good for you.

Saethori wrote:
Why not just worship Desna, change your domains, and make this much simpler?

I'm guessing it's for the Sun domain. That said, the separatist cleric is always an option. ^_^


The reasoning with the deities, is that in Divine Anthology, the only prerequisite listed is that you must have the same alignment as the deity you select, not that you have to worship them (unless I missed something). The reasons for not switching from worshiping Sarenrae to Desna are: 1) we've developed the characters enough that worshiping Sarenrae is an established part of my character's personality and background and 2) I really don't like Desna's domains beyond Good, which I already have.


Captain Battletoad wrote:
The reasoning with the deities, is that in Divine Anthology, the only prerequisite listed is that you must have the same alignment as the deity you select, not that you have to worship them (unless I missed something).

You did. Being a cleric to a deity is the ultimate form of worshiping them. And on Golarion, that is the only road to becoming one.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Captain Battletoad wrote:
The reasoning with the deities, is that in Divine Anthology, the only prerequisite listed is that you must have the same alignment as the deity you select, not that you have to worship them (unless I missed something).
You did. Being a cleric to a deity is the ultimate form of worshiping them. And on Golarion, that is the only road to becoming one.

I was referring to the prequisite for the Divine Fighting Technique feat as listed in Divine Anthology, not being a Cleric.


Rub-Eta wrote:

I'm not a fan of multiple deity worshiping characters (at least not when it has to do with mechanics). It seems like a smelly cheese to me. It's also not allowed by the 'Divine Fighting Technique' feat: "Must worship a single patron deity that has an established divine fighting technique". I would say that this still applies even if you trade away a domain. But if you and your DM has no qualms with any of it, go ahead.

PS. You just sold me on that book.

Also, as I was just rereading the feat description, it lists that you can take the feat multiple times and pick a different technique each time, which wouldn't make sense if you were only allowed to worship a single deity.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Divine Anthology wrote:
Anyone faithful to a deity can learn that god's divine fighting style by taking the Divine Fighting Technique feat (see below). Alternatively, a cleric, inquisitor, or warpriest who worships a deity can choose to give up either the first power of one if her domains or a minor blessing benefit to gain access to her god's divine fighting technique without having to meet the technique's prerequisites (including the Divine Fighting Style feat). [...]
Divine Fighting Technique wrote:

You have trained in the divine fighting technique of a specific deity.

Prerequisite: Must worship a single patron deity that has an established divine fighting technique.
Benefit:You can use your patron deity's fighting technique and receive any benefit associated with that technique for which you qualify, as described in the Divine Fighting Techniques section below.

"Faithful to a deity". "Who worships a deity". "Use your patron deity's fighting technique".

Desna isn't your god. Sarenrae is. You can use any divine fighting technique associated with Sarenrae (if she has one), but unless you change who you are worshipping, you do not qualify for anything of Desna.

If you absolutely want to maintain both, ask your GM for a Rule Zero.

The Exchange

Captain Battletoad wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Captain Battletoad wrote:
The reasoning with the deities, is that in Divine Anthology, the only prerequisite listed is that you must have the same alignment as the deity you select, not that you have to worship them (unless I missed something).
You did. Being a cleric to a deity is the ultimate form of worshiping them. And on Golarion, that is the only road to becoming one.
I was referring to the prequisite for the Divine Fighting Technique feat as listed in Divine Anthology, not being a Cleric.
Divine Fighting Technique wrote:
Prerequisite: Must worship a single patron deity that has an established divine fighting technique.

The Exchange

Captain Battletoad wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:

I'm not a fan of multiple deity worshiping characters (at least not when it has to do with mechanics). It seems like a smelly cheese to me. It's also not allowed by the 'Divine Fighting Technique' feat: "Must worship a single patron deity that has an established divine fighting technique". I would say that this still applies even if you trade away a domain. But if you and your DM has no qualms with any of it, go ahead.

PS. You just sold me on that book.

Also, as I was just rereading the feat description, it lists that you can take the feat multiple times and pick a different technique each time, which wouldn't make sense if you were only allowed to worship a single deity.

Are you reading it straight from the book or from some other source?


Saethori wrote:
Divine Anthology wrote:
Anyone faithful to a deity can learn that god's divine fighting style by taking the Divine Fighting Technique feat (see below). Alternatively, a cleric, inquisitor, or warpriest who worships a deity can choose to give up either the first power of one if her domains or a minor blessing benefit to gain access to her god's divine fighting technique without having to meet the technique's prerequisites (including the Divine Fighting Style feat).
Divine Fighting Technique wrote:

You have trained in the divine fighting technique of a specific deity.

Prerequisite: Must worship a single patron deity that has an established divine fighting technique.
Benefit:You can use your patron deity's fighting technique and receive any benefit associated with that technique for which you qualify, as described in the Divine Fighting Techniques section below.

"Faithful to a deity". "Who worships a deity". "Use your patron deity's fighting technique".

Desna isn't your god. Sarenrae is. You can use any divine fighting technique associated with Sarenrae (if she has one), but unless you change who you are worshipping, you do not qualify for anything of Desna.

If you absolutely want to maintain both, ask your GM for a Rule Zero.

Well as I have the level in Oracle and Oracles are specifically described as worshiping concepts including a multitude of deities, and since Sarenrae and Desna are allies, it wouldn't be too far fetched to believe that I worship multiple deities, but only get spells from one. Additionally, see my last comment above.


Belafon wrote:
Captain Battletoad wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:

I'm not a fan of multiple deity worshiping characters (at least not when it has to do with mechanics). It seems like a smelly cheese to me. It's also not allowed by the 'Divine Fighting Technique' feat: "Must worship a single patron deity that has an established divine fighting technique". I would say that this still applies even if you trade away a domain. But if you and your DM has no qualms with any of it, go ahead.

PS. You just sold me on that book.

Also, as I was just rereading the feat description, it lists that you can take the feat multiple times and pick a different technique each time, which wouldn't make sense if you were only allowed to worship a single deity.
Are you reading it straight from the book or from some other source?

I'm on mobile so I don't have the book handy, but the Archives of Nethys and the d20PFSRD both have the special caveat that I mentioned.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yes, it would be far fetched. If you are only getting spells from one deity, then that deity is your patron.

Oracles might be able to worship concepts, but that's because they lack any of the deity specific ties clerics have. They don't get domains, don't get any deity's favored weapon, don't get any deity's fighting style, unless they decide to actually commit to a primary deity.

The text I quoted above is directly from Divine Anthology's PDF. No serial number filing, as might occur on the PFSRD. This is the text the book provides, and if you have a disagreement with the book, you can ask your GM for a Rule Zero to let you double dip.

The Exchange

Captain Battletoad wrote:
Belafon wrote:
Captain Battletoad wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:

I'm not a fan of multiple deity worshiping characters (at least not when it has to do with mechanics). It seems like a smelly cheese to me. It's also not allowed by the 'Divine Fighting Technique' feat: "Must worship a single patron deity that has an established divine fighting technique". I would say that this still applies even if you trade away a domain. But if you and your DM has no qualms with any of it, go ahead.

PS. You just sold me on that book.

Also, as I was just rereading the feat description, it lists that you can take the feat multiple times and pick a different technique each time, which wouldn't make sense if you were only allowed to worship a single deity.
Are you reading it straight from the book or from some other source?
I'm on mobile so I don't have the book handy, but the Archives of Nethys and the d20PFSRD both have the special caveat that I mentioned.

Got it.

There are two different feats called "Divine Fighting Technique." The one you are quoting is from Weapon Master's Handbook. for the WMH version you just have to match the alignment of the deity, not actually worship the deity. You also can take it multiple times. The version in Divine Anthology does NOT allow you to take it multiple times and requires you to worship a SINGLE deity.


Ok so I went and found the entry for Divine Fighting Technique from the Weapon Master's Handbook (where the feat originated).

Quote:

Divine Fighting Technique (Combat)

You have trained in the fighting technique of a deity.
Prerequisite: Same alignment as chosen deity.
Benefit: Select a deity. You can use that deity’s fighting
technique and receive any benefit for which you qualify, as
described in the Divine Fighting Techniques section below.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each
time you take this feat, it applies to a new deity’s divine
fighting technique.

So really the question is, are they two separate feats, or is there a misprint in the omission of the special caveat? I'm not aware of any other case where Paizo made two feats which acted differently but had the same name.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Last time they printed a second feat with the exact same name and a very similar effect, it was Fencing Grace, intent to print-errata a revised wording.

I suspect this change is the same principle, designed to replace the old feat with one that's less prone to blatant abuse.

The Exchange

Captain Battletoad wrote:

Ok so I went and found the entry for Divine Fighting Technique from the Weapon Master's Handbook (where the feat originated).

Quote:

Divine Fighting Technique (Combat)

You have trained in the fighting technique of a deity.
Prerequisite: Same alignment as chosen deity.
Benefit: Select a deity. You can use that deity’s fighting
technique and receive any benefit for which you qualify, as
described in the Divine Fighting Techniques section below.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each
time you take this feat, it applies to a new deity’s divine
fighting technique.
So really the question is, are they two separate feats, or is there a misprint in the omission of the special caveat?

I don't know the answer to that for sure, but I expect the Divine Anthology version is supposed to be the updated (corrected version.

Quote:
I'm not aware of any other case where Paizo made two feats which acted differently but had the same name.

Rapid Reload springs to mind, which has been printed at least three times with changes to functionality each time. Fencing Grace got reprinted in Ultimate Intrigue with changes. There's a lot of 3.5 material that was reprinted (and changed) in the Inner Sea World Guide with the same names. Faiths of Purity had a bunch of feats that got minor changes in Inner Sea Gods.


I think whichever way you look at it, you are probably out of luck.

If they are different feats (which I don't think they are), then you have to follow the text in the divine anthology, which requires you to follow desna.

If they are the same feat (which I think they are because they are so similar), then you probably have to use the feat for the book that came out last (Divine Anthology).

The Exchange

Saethori wrote:

Last time they printed a second feat with the exact same name and a very similar effect, it was Fencing Grace, intent to print-errata a revised wording.

I suspect this change is the same principle, designed to replace the old feat with one that's less prone to blatant abuse.

I wouldn't exactly say "abuse" in this case so much as "we didn't future-proof it sufficiently." When the feat was first written only the Weapon Master's Handbook styles were considered. In WMH the only two styles you could qualify for simultaneously were Calistria and Gorum. Which were strictly whip and greatsword related, respectively. Not a real issue if you wanted to take both, since they would never work together on the same attack. You know two different fighting styles; that's interesting, not overpowering.

But in Divine Anthology they added some that don't require a specific weapon (like Norgorber). So they updated the feat to prevent a situation where you might get multiple benefits on the same attack from different styles. So I guess it was partly "to prevent abuse" but more "to give us more design space." Even if that means moving away a bit from the original intention.


So after talking with my DM, I decided to alter the retraining just a bit, changing my deity to Desna and adding the Separatist archetype with the second domain being Sun. So the only real deviations from the points made in my OP will be patron deity and counting my Sun domain powers as Cleric level -2 instead of even with the level. Beyond that, does anyone have any opinions on what I could be doing better with my build (I've updated the character sheet I linked in the OP to adjust for the changes I just mentioned)?


Check out the Noble Scion feat.


Rub-Eta wrote:
Check out the Noble Scion feat.

I considered that, but I'm a bit strapped as far as feats go (I need Divine Fighting Technique, Martial Proficiency since Separatist Clerics don't get proficiency with their deity's favored weapon, Selective Channeling because every Cleric should have it, and then for the final feat I'm going with Extra Channel because, while not a necessity given my high CHA, I've found it to be extremely useful to be able to just lob positive energy all day long), and I'm not overly concerned with being at the top of initiative.


I like what you've got going here. My one recommendation without being spoiler-y is for your character to invest in a ring of inner fortitude and upgrade it to the top model as fast as you can. Have fun in Carrion Crown, I did!


Turin the Mad wrote:
I like what you've got going here. My one recommendation without being spoiler-y is for your character to invest in a ring of inner fortitude and upgrade it to the top model as fast as you can. Have fun in Carrion Crown, I did!

Thanks! As for the ring, I'm guessing that's for

Spoiler:
vampires?

I'll definitely look into it, but I'll be a bit strapped for cash after the retraining (we're also a group of 5, so gold is already being split thin). Luckily, I'll already be able to cast Lesser Restoration and will be able to cast Restoration one level after I complete the retraining.


The DEV in charge of the book commented in the book's thread that there are two different feats that have the same name. That styles in divine need the divine version of the feat and styles in weapon handbook need that version of the feat.


Captain Battletoad wrote:

Ok so I went and found the entry for Divine Fighting Technique from the Weapon Master's Handbook (where the feat originated).

Quote:

Divine Fighting Technique (Combat)

You have trained in the fighting technique of a deity.
Prerequisite: Same alignment as chosen deity.
Benefit: Select a deity. You can use that deity’s fighting
technique and receive any benefit for which you qualify, as
described in the Divine Fighting Techniques section below.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each
time you take this feat, it applies to a new deity’s divine
fighting technique.
So really the question is, are they two separate feats, or is there a misprint in the omission of the special caveat? I'm not aware of any other case where Paizo made two feats which acted differently but had the same name.

Well if you have a deity with multiple fighting techniques, you can take multiple copies of the feat to grab each one. Like a Corellon type who has masteries of both sword and bow.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Captain Battletoad wrote:

Ok so I went and found the entry for Divine Fighting Technique from the Weapon Master's Handbook (where the feat originated).

Quote:

Divine Fighting Technique (Combat)

You have trained in the fighting technique of a deity.
Prerequisite: Same alignment as chosen deity.
Benefit: Select a deity. You can use that deity’s fighting
technique and receive any benefit for which you qualify, as
described in the Divine Fighting Techniques section below.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each
time you take this feat, it applies to a new deity’s divine
fighting technique.
So really the question is, are they two separate feats, or is there a misprint in the omission of the special caveat? I'm not aware of any other case where Paizo made two feats which acted differently but had the same name.
Well if you have a deity with multiple fighting techniques, you can take multiple copies of the feat to grab each one. Like a Corellon type who has masteries of both sword and bow.

I considered that, but to my knowledge none of the deities have multiple fighting techniques listed under the feat. That could be for the purpose of future implementation, and if so then the wording is just a little confusing.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:
The DEV in charge of the book commented in the book's thread that there are two different feats that have the same name. That styles in divine need the divine version of the feat and styles in weapon handbook need that version of the feat.

This is correct. For Desna's Shooting Star, officially speaking, you need the version that requires worship. ^_^

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

As of now, a lawful good worshiper of Erastil can take both Erastil's Distracting Shot and Iomedae's Inspiring Sword.

...that actually doesn't sound terrible. ^_^


You can get proficiency with starknife with the trait tatooed mystic - it's a human race trait.

Benefit: You gain a +1 trait bonus on saving throws against charm and compulsion effects. Additionally, you are proficient with bladed scarves and starknives.


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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
nicholas storm wrote:

You can get proficiency with starknife with the trait tatooed mystic - it's a human race trait.

Benefit: You gain a +1 trait bonus on saving throws against charm and compulsion effects. Additionally, you are proficient with bladed scarves and starknives.

The trait is officially known as Varisian Tattoo, and I believe Kalindlara already mentioned it in either this or the other Desna Starknife thread.


nicholas storm wrote:

You can get proficiency with starknife with the trait tatooed mystic - it's a human race trait.

Benefit: You gain a +1 trait bonus on saving throws against charm and compulsion effects. Additionally, you are proficient with bladed scarves and starknives.

As an Aasimar, would I qualify for that?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It's a racial trait for humans of the Varisian ethnicity. You would need Scion of Humanity or Adopted to qualify.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Saethori wrote:
It's a racial trait for humans of the Varisian ethnicity. You would need Scion of Humanity or Adopted to qualify.

This is incorrect - despite the name, it is in fact a Regional trait, with no race prerequisites whatsoever.

Surprising, I know. ^_^


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Ah? Nethys lists it as Category: Race.
Nethys, you lied to me!


Oh, I couldn't take the trait anyway, since it comes from a splatbook other than DA, and I'm limited to only one.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Saethori wrote:

Ah? Nethys lists it as Category: Race.

Nethys, you lied to me!

I could actually be incorrect - I'm admittedly relying on Hero Lab, when it's in a race-related section of its book. Let me review the Player Companion and get back to you. ^_^

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

I HAVE LED YOU ASTRAY. Earlier in the book, it specifically lists them as race traits. (Given the flavor text, I'd always wondered about that.)

All hail Nethys. ^_^


For a charisma based character you'll get a lot of channels. There a feat that allows you to temporarily have the variant channel of your one goddess. I think for God's like Cayden that's a really great option. AOE remove nausea. With quickened channel you could even remove your own as a move.

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