One of RotR Seoni's powers is "For your combat check, discard a card to use you Arcane skill + 1d6 with the Attack, Fire and Magic traits. This counts as playing a Spell."
Now, we've always played that as if Seoni's literally playing a spell card with the ARCANE, Fire, Magic and Attack traits. However, I recently noticed in the PA app that using the 'fireball' in the Thassilonian Dungeon doesn't trigger its power ("When you play a spell with the Arcane trait, you may draw a card").
This lead to some discussion - does playing Seoni's power equals two separate things - "you're playing a spell" and "your check has the Attack, Fire, Arcane traits"; or is it intended to be one singular effect of "you're playing a spell with the ARCANE (due to the skill being used), Attack, Fire, Arcane traits" ?
Another spin on the same question: if the trait in question wasn't Arcane, but Fire (ex:"When you play a spell with the Fire trait..."), would using Seoni's power trigger it? Her wording is a bit obsolete (from times when we had the concept of "dice with a trait"), today she would probably say "use you Arcane skill + 1d6 AND ADD the ... traits" - it's clear that the check would have the traits, but does "the spell" have them?
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One of RotR Seoni's powers is "For your combat check, discard a card to use you Arcane skill + 1d6 with the Attack, Fire and Magic traits. This counts as playing a Spell."
Those are the traits associated with using her power. Arcane is not on the list. Plus it counts as playing a spell for any powers that specify that type of combat.
Now, we've always played that as if Seoni's literally playing a spell card with the ARCANE, Fire, Magic and Attack traits. However, I recently noticed in the PA app that using the 'fireball' in the Thassilonian Dungeon doesn't trigger its power ("When you play a spell with the Arcane trait, you may draw a card").
What traits does Fireball have? And if you're talking about her innate power, it doesn't have Arcane.
This lead to some discussion - does playing Seoni's power equals two separate things - "you're playing a spell" and "your check has the Attack, Fire, Arcane traits"; or is it intended to be one singular effect of "you're playing a spell with the ARCANE (due to the skill being used), Attack, Fire, Arcane traits" ?
I think this is where you're jumping to a conclusion. Just because her power is an Arcane-based power doesn't mean it has the Arcane trait. The traits listed for the power are Attack, Fire and Magic which are added to the check. And it counts as playing a spell (which isn't a trait but a type of combat).
Another spin on the same question: if the trait in question wasn't Arcane, but Fire (ex:"When you play a spell with the Fire trait..."), would using Seoni's power trigger it? Her wording is a bit obsolete (from times when we had the concept of "dice with a trait"), today she would probably say "use you Arcane skill + 1d6 AND ADD the ... traits" - it's clear that the check would have the traits, but does "the spell" have them?
Yes, that trait is listed so it would trigger let's say a spell immunity. A spell played from a card has traits listed on it as well as traits associated with the check when listed in the power. So when you are asked in a check whether the spell has certain traits, those are the ones listed on the card. When you are asked in a check whether the check has certain traits, then you're looking at those traits added to the (combat) check. In this case, the traits listed for Seoni's power are added to the combat check. As for traits associated with the "spell", there are none listed specifically for her power but I'd think those traits listed are valid.
I'm not even going to get into Invoke which is a big can of worms.
I got relatively little skin in this game, but doesn't the die your rolling automatically add its trait to the check? If you're rolling a combat check with your Melee skill, but no weapon, it's still a Melee combat check. I guess maybe there's some weird double-think thing where it's still an Arcane combat check, since you're rolling your Arcane skill, but since the power doesn't specify Arcane as a trait, like a physical spell would, the "card" you're playing doesn't have the Arcane trait, and therefore wouldn't trigger Thalassion Dungeon's power.
I'd probably play that it would, tho~
So, think of it this way. If you play Corrosive Dagger and recharge it for the d12 and the Poison trait, did you play a Weapon with the Poison trait? Or did you play a Weapon and your check had the Poison trait? In other words, the check can have traits that the card doesn't.
Now, the Seoni question is actually an old one. And one with no official answer at this point.
Old thread 1
Old thread 2
Old thread 3
I've interpreted the way Obsidian has. The "counts as playing a spell" basically means a "traitless" spell. But, I would say it isn't the clearest thing.
When Seoni plays her fireball, her check has the Arcane trait, because she is using her Arcane skill for the check.
I always thought for this reason she is playing an Arcane spell. I admit it's not clear based on the rules. But I did not think the game ever included a spell which is neither Divine nor Arcane.
To my knowledge, there is no physical spell card in the game that lacks both the Arcane and Divine trait.
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When Seoni plays her fireball, her check has the Arcane trait, because she is using her Arcane skill for the check.
I always thought for this reason she is playing an Arcane spell. I admit it's not clear based on the rules. But I did not think the game ever included a spell which is neither Divine nor Arcane.
Yes, she's using the Arcane skill when using her power. For the use of Invoke, the Arcane trait would be invoked on the check.
However, the power itself has no traits defined (and by extension, the spell that is cast). The check has Attack, Fire and Magic added.
I'd think this is the same for all other powers that generate a spell like Alahazra's.
Driving my son home from Kung Fu, I was thinking about Theryon's argument (before his recent post), and I do see his point.
The skill you’re using for the check, and any skill referenced by that skill, are added as traits to the check.
For your check to defeat a bane that has the Demon or Undead trait, you may recharge a spell (□ or blessing) to use your Divine skill + 1d8 and add the Attack, Divine, and Magic traits.
For your combat check, you may discard the top card of your deck to use your Divine skill + 2d4 plus that card’s adventure deck number and add the Attack, Divine, Fire, and Magic traits. This
counts as playing a spell.
The rulebook indicates the skill you are using adds itself as a trait. (So why the heck are these characters adding the trait already on the check?)
For your combat check, you may discard a card to use your Arcane skill + 1d6 (□+1) (□+2) and add the Attack, Magic, and Mental traits. This counts as playing a spell.
For your combat check, you may discard a card to use your Arcane skill + 1d6 (□+1) (□+2) and add the Attack, Force, and Magic traits. This counts as playing a spell.
I think if you look at similar powers, they add traits to the check, rather than explicitly defining the sole traits of the check. I think RotR Seoni is just a victim of 1.0 wording. The Attack, Magic and Fire traits should be added to the check (which already has the Arcane and Charisma traits). I think if RotR was printed today Seoni's power would be worded like the other sorcererors.
Now, the Seoni question is actually an old one. And one with no official answer at this point.
Wow! If issues had a class, this one would be a Monk; I can't believe how many bullets it managed to dodge through the years...
I think if you look at similar powers, they add traits to the check, rather than explicitly defining the sole traits of the check. I think RotR Seoni is just a victim of 1.0 wording. The Attack, Magic and Fire traits should be added to the check (which already has the Arcane and Charisma traits). I think if RotR was printed today Seoni's power would be worded like the other sorcererors.
Yes, as mentioned at the end of the initial post, we have no doubt about the potential updated wording, and we know the Arcane trait is added to the CHECK; the question however remains, does the "spell" have the Arcane trait?
I thing your quotes on the Divine casters may indicate some new thinking in that direction and the redundant (RAI) Divine trait being added to the check may in fact be attempt to grant the implicit 'spell' itself a Divine trait.
To take Hawkmoon's example, if there was a monster with "You may not play weapons with the Acid trait" power, but I recharge Corrosive Dagger - would that be desirable? (and I know you can kill skeletons with caltrops, and buddy up with a bunyup in the General Store, but there are degrees of abstraction; it's clear for everyone that you're activating the dagger and making it acidic, but still bypassing the monster's defense due to wording technicality)
(If I had to Oracle this stuff up: this will be a moot point, as I see the 'invoke' replacing most of the retro wording - it just appears to be much more clear and consistent when trying to relate what can and cannot be played)
So, your check has the Arcane trait, because you're using your Arcane skill. However, Thassilonian Dungeon doesn't care what traits your check has, it cares what traits the spell you played has. In other words, the traits that are listed on the spell card. As you didn't play a spell card, there are 0 traits on the spell card you didn't actually play, and therefore it does not trigger the location power because Arcane is not included in those 0 traits. We also know that using a power on the character card does not count as playing your character card, so your character's traits don't come into effect either.
To my knowledge, there is no physical spell card in the game that lacks both the Arcane and Divine trait.
Maybe now that occult classes are showing up, we'll start seeing that (spells with the Psychic trait instead of Arcane and/or Divine, such as id insinuation and mind thrust).
When a power is used which counts as playing a spell, I think the rules as written to do not indicate if the spell has the traits of the check, or not. It would not be surprising for Seoni's power to be interpreted as playing a spell with the Fire trait. It would be odd for it to be regarded as playing a spell with the Charisma trait, however.
To take Hawkmoon's example, if there was a monster with "You may not play weapons with the Acid trait" power, but I recharge Corrosive Dagger - would that be desirable?
I don't have Corrosive Dagger in front of me, but if the card has the Acid trait, you couldn't recharge it for its power in this case. If the card gives the check the Acid trait when recharged, you could. (Usually monsters now say "immune to Acid". The rules indicate for such a monster you can neither play cards with that trait or use powers which add that trait.)
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So, your check has the Arcane trait, because you're using your Arcane skill. However, Thassilonian Dungeon doesn't care what traits your check has, it cares what traits the spell you played has. In other words, the traits that are listed on the spell card. As you didn't play a spell card, there are 0 traits on the spell card you didn't actually play, and therefore it does not trigger the location power because Arcane is not included in those 0 traits. We also know that using a power on the character card does not count as playing your character card, so your character's traits don't come into effect either.
That was the point of my original reply. There's a difference between the traits on the check and the traits on the spell (or weapon, etc.).
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I don't have Corrosive Dagger in front of me, but if the card has the Acid trait, you couldn't recharge it for its power in this case. If the card gives the check the Acid trait when recharged, you could. (Usually monsters now say "immune to Acid". The rules indicate for such a monster you can neither play cards with that trait or use powers which add that trait.)
Very similar to the Venomous Heavy Crossbow +2 which does not have the Poison trait but if you are using it against Undead (Poison and Mental immunity), you can still use the crossbow but you cannot activate its discard power to add more damage and the Poison trait. The Corrosive Dagger +1 does not have the Acid trait but adds it with its recharge power.
