Does a wizard need to see the center of his spell to cast stone call?


Rules Questions


So, we ran through a large room and into a small barracks bedroom. Our wizard knew the landscape outside and had been in combat outside for a while. We had some time to look over the bigger outer room before retreating.

In the smaller bedroom with no line of sight outside, can our wizard cast stonecall outside of the bedroom?


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

No, the wizard needs line of effect to the spell's point of origin.

PRD wrote:
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.


You definitely have to be able to see the origin point of any spell you cast.

Aiming a Spell wrote:

You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.

Target or Targets

Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

Effect wrote:

Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.

You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.


Quote:
by seeing it or defining it

You could define its origin as "a point 100 feet that way from me" even if you can't see that far because it is dark out and you are only holding a torch.

LOE is correct. LOE doesn't require sight.


SorrySleeping wrote:

So, we ran through a large room and into a small barracks bedroom. Our wizard knew the landscape outside and had been in combat outside for a while. We had some time to look over the bigger outer room before retreating.

In the smaller bedroom with no line of sight outside, can our wizard cast stonecall outside of the bedroom?

Why don't you have line of sight?


Skylancer4 wrote:
SorrySleeping wrote:

So, we ran through a large room and into a small barracks bedroom. Our wizard knew the landscape outside and had been in combat outside for a while. We had some time to look over the bigger outer room before retreating.

In the smaller bedroom with no line of sight outside, can our wizard cast stonecall outside of the bedroom?

Why don't you have line of sight?

Presumably because of a closed door.


Tarantula wrote:
Quote:
by seeing it or defining it

You could define its origin as "a point 100 feet that way from me" even if you can't see that far because it is dark out and you are only holding a torch.

LOE is correct. LOE doesn't require sight.

You ignored the part about targeting, where it says
Target or Targets wrote:
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

You don't have to have LoS for all of the effects to take place (the edges of the cylinder in this case would be defined as 40' away from the point of origin), but you do have to have LoS to select a target for the point of origin (an intersection on the map).


Target or Targets.

Stone call is an Area, not a target spell. Area spells do not have the limitation that you must be able to see or touch the target and specifically choose it.

For target spells, you must have LOE and be able to see/touch and specifically choose the target. You can't cast hold person on an invisible human because you cannot specifically target that human.

For area spells, you must have LOE to the origin point. LOE specifically doesn't require LOS, in that fog/darkness and such don't block it.

Quote:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.


Tarantula wrote:

Target or Targets.

Stone call is an Area, not a target spell. Area spells do not have the limitation that you must be able to see or touch the target and specifically choose it.

For target spells, you must have LOE and be able to see/touch and specifically choose the target. You can't cast hold person on an invisible human because you cannot specifically target that human.

For area spells, you must have LOE to the origin point. LOE specifically doesn't require LOS, in that fog/darkness and such don't block it.

Area spells do have a target:
Area of Effect Templates wrote:

Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.

If you can't see the grid intersection for your point of origin you can't select it.


Ridiculon wrote:

Area spells do have a target:

Area of Effect Templates wrote:

Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.

If you can't see the grid intersection for your point of origin you can't select it.

"Target" is a technical term in this context; spells have "Targets" if they're directed at specific individuals or objects. "Area" is a different technical term; some spells have targets, some have areas, some have neither, et cetera. In particular, the stone call spell does not have a target, but does have an area.

The restriction that you need to see your "target" is part of the rules for spells with "targets." There's no such restriction on area spells; even the rule you cited above only says that you "select" in, not that you need to "see" it.


Quote:

Aiming a Spell

You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.

Lines in the spell entry will give you one of the following:

Target or targets
Effect
Area

The part you quoted under, "Target or targets:" only applies to spells which have a Target line. Such as Hold Person. Hold person's target line is: Target one humanoid creature

To use hold person, you must be able to see and specifically choose one humanoid target within the range of the spell. You also must have line of effect to that target. If they were behind a wall of force, you might be able to see them, but you would not have line of effect to them.

Stone call has an Area line: Area cylinder (40-ft. radius, 20 ft. high)

Area spells only require line of effect to the origin point. If you are a human in complete darkness, you cannot cast a Targeted spell, because you cannot see anyone to target, but you can cast an Area spell because you could define the origin as "35 feet that direction".

Even if you know what square an invisible human was in, you couldn't target them with hold person, but you could target an area spell which puts the square in its effect.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So long as you are consistent in future uses.

I'd probably say it requires a spell craft check to get it right, but most spells require some sight on the area to be effected even if it's through a key hole.


Tarantula wrote:


Even if you know what square an invisible human was in, you couldn't target them with hold person, but you could target an area spell which puts the square in its effect.

... which is very important if the spell you have in mind is glitterdust. In fact, that would be a useful spell to cast even in total darkness, where you couldn't see the opponent or the spell's point of origin, but the spell itself will take care of that.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
SorrySleeping wrote:

So, we ran through a large room and into a small barracks bedroom. Our wizard knew the landscape outside and had been in combat outside for a while. We had some time to look over the bigger outer room before retreating.

In the smaller bedroom with no line of sight outside, can our wizard cast stonecall outside of the bedroom?

Why don't you have line of sight?
Presumably because of a closed door.

Presumably doesn't cut it when the answer depends on the situation.


Line of sight =/= Line of effect
Target =/= point of origin

You do not need a spell-craft check to position an area spell.
You simple need to have line of effect (a path of at least 1 square foot through an otherwise solid barrier is sufficient) and be able to either see the origin point or define it.

Depending on the GM "the middle of the room we just passed through" should be more than sufficient to define an origin point.


dragonhunterq wrote:
Depending on the GM "the middle of the room we just passed through" should be more than sufficient to define an origin point.

I agree, assuming you still have LOE to that point (and a door wasn't shut in the way).

In the original post, they said they didn't have LOS to the point the caster wanted to place the spell, which would mean they also don't have LOE.


Tarantula wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Depending on the GM "the middle of the room we just passed through" should be more than sufficient to define an origin point.

I agree, assuming you still have LOE to that point (and a door wasn't shut in the way).

In the original post, they said they didn't have LOS to the point the caster wanted to place the spell, which would mean they also don't have LOE.

Not necessarily true - while I agree it is almost certain to be true - but we just don't have enough information. Consider if, for example, both rooms had windows and the windows were open in each room then you would have LoE, but not LoS.


dragonhunterq wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Depending on the GM "the middle of the room we just passed through" should be more than sufficient to define an origin point.

I agree, assuming you still have LOE to that point (and a door wasn't shut in the way).

In the original post, they said they didn't have LOS to the point the caster wanted to place the spell, which would mean they also don't have LOE.

Not necessarily true - while I agree it is almost certain to be true - but we just don't have enough information. Consider if, for example, both rooms had windows and the windows were open in each room then you would have LoE, but not LoS.

I'm not seeing this; if the windows are open, they can be seen through. "Line" of effect implies "straight" (this is even explicit), so if the windows are open enough to provide LOS, they will also provide LOE, and vice versa.

"Line of effect" can't go through the door, turn left, down the hallway, second door on the right, and then into the center of the room.

In broad terms, the only thing that blocks LOS but not LOE are concealment effects like darkness or fog cloud, but not windows or corners.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The stone call spell has a cylinder area, yes?

When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell's point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder. A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area.

As others have stated, you do need line of effect (a straight line unblocked by solid objects) to the area's point of origin. You don't necessarily need line of sight for said point of origin (if you did, so many spells and common scenarios would be totally wrecked).

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.

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