Variant Channeling query


Rules Questions


According to the Knowledge Variant: 
Heal—Creatures gain a channel bonus on Knowledge and Perception checks until the end of your next turn.
Harm—Sentient creatures (Intelligence 3+) who fail their saves take 1d2 points of Intelligence damage. A successful save negates this Intelligence damage.

I understand the "channel bonus" bit, giving an increment bonus depending on what level the channeler is. What I don't understand is why the Harm bit never gets any better than 1d2 damage per increment.
The way this is written suggests that while the bonus gets better, depending on what the level of the channeler is, there is never any increase too the damage dealt, regardless as to the level of the channeler.
It looks like what they are saying is that at level 1 the amount of damage you could do with it would be the same as if you were level 20. And even if that is what they meant, it doesn't seem very fair to me.

Silver Crusade

Ability Damage is Strong.

Most things that I can think of that deal it don't tend to increase.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

This^

Also the DC to resist go up with level.


Well I kind of understand that. But the DC goes up on any other type of channeling too. And for the same reason, so that's no real bonus.


Rysky wrote:

Ability Damage is Strong.

Most things that I can think of that deal it don't tend to increase.

Ability DRAIN is strong. Ability damage can get fixed with a Lesser Restoration.

Personally I think it should be 1d2 per Channel Bonus. 1d2 initially. +1d2 at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.
Either that or at least set the save to be like other channeling types. On most variants it's: Will Save for half. This is for none.

Silver Crusade

You don't tend to give your opponents time to use restoration in the middle of a fight.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Matt Coles wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Ability Damage is Strong.

Most things that I can think of that deal it don't tend to increase.

Ability DRAIN is strong. Ability damage can get fixed with a Lesser Restoration.

Personally I think it should be 1d2 per Channel Bonus. 1d2 initially. +1d2 at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.
Either that or at least set the save to be like other channeling types. On most variants it's: Will Save for half. This is for none.

Dang, 2d2 Intelligence damage at Level 5? Time to build a Quick Channel Cleric to abuse that damage. 4d2 INT damage in a 30' radius around you for the low cost of 3 channels? Sign me up.

Take Improved Channel and Quick Channel, then put your highest ability score in Charisma. At Level 5 with 20 CHA and one feat you have a DC 19 Will save - a CR 7 monster has a 55% or 35% chance of passing that save once, depending on whether their will save is high or low (according to the Monster Statistics by CR table). Better yet, make it a villain! Your party's at Level 3 fighting a big villain? Cleric! Turn the party into a pile of idiots! If they don't have INT 1-2 before your channel and you knock them to 0 they go comatose and nothing short of Lesser Restoration fixes that! Enemy wizard? Most don't put points into Wisdom, so their save is probably closer to +5. If you deal INT damage to a wizard, arcanist, magus, psychic, occultist, etc you can decrease their spell DCs and even prevent them from casting entirely!

Yeah. This is broken. Keep it at 1d2. If it scaled, at the very most it should scale by dice size - 1d3 at 5, 1d4 at 10, 1d6 at 15, and 1d8 at 20. Then, in addition to that change, make it Will: Negates instead of Will: Half. It's still strong, but the reduced minimum damage makes it less consistent and lowers the average damage. Alternatively, have it deal 1 INT damage per channel die, save for half. You still have the potential to deal large amounts of INT damage, but not enough to TPK swiftly, and it would require significant investment to be very powerful.

Shadow Lodge

The only time I ever see Variant Channeling getting used is for people doing a 1 level dip into cleric(ish) anyways. So the advancement of a variant is somewhat moot.

Then again, they did recently come up with that feat that lets normal channelers access the variant 3 times a day, so it might be useful for that.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
thistledown wrote:

The only time I ever see Variant Channeling getting used is for people doing a 1 level dip into cleric(ish) anyways. So the advancement of a variant is somewhat moot.

Then again, they did recently come up with that feat that lets normal channelers access the variant 3 times a day, so it might be useful for that.

I took it on an NPC for a 1-shot I ran. The NPC was a Channel-focused Shaman - Witch Doctor and the Life spirit for 2 pools and VMC Cleric for another. Channel Strength granted +3 to attack rolls which helped the Barbarian hit on his low-BAB attacks and healed some damage. It works better with Heal to buff allies than with Harm to debuff enemies due to the DC scaling requiring CHA, which is typically not the highest stat on classes that can Channel.

Dark Archive

I played a cleric with the Disease variant channeling to lvl 12, and i concur that PC's dealing ability damage can be very powerfull, especially if they know what to target. The Disease variant also spreads Contagion starting lvl 10 on one person in the channel radiance, and allows the PC to target at least 1 ability score at will. Is that an Animal (or some Magical Beasts as well)? I choose Mindfire. A Vermin? Leprosy. When any of their scores falls to zero, they are comatose. It is just a fight-ender with a radius of 30ft.

That is probably why they put so much restrictions on the Harm version of Knowledge Variant Channeling. Where Disease targets one person who failed his save starting lvl 10, Knowledge targets everyone in the 30ft radius starting lvl 1. It needs the continuous low damage and the clause of no 1-2 Int targets to make sure that it doesn't end the fight in 6 seconds.

But I will also agree with the OP that as it stands now, it doesn't really make an impact. 1d2 Int damage has a 50% chance of lowering the save DC of Int casters by 1, IF they fail their save. It might not really be worth it.


Rysky wrote:
You don't tend to give your opponents time to use restoration in the middle of a fight.

Okay. I'll grant you that. Lesser Rest. does take 3 rounds to cast, so it's not likely that somebody is going to do that during combat. Good call.


LuniasM wrote:
Matt Coles wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Ability Damage is Strong.

Most things that I can think of that deal it don't tend to increase.

Yeah. This is broken. Keep it at 1d2. If it scaled, at the very most it should scale by dice size - 1d3 at 5, 1d4 at 10, 1d6 at 15, and 1d8 at 20. Then, in addition to that change, make it Will: Negates instead of Will: Half. It's still strong, but the reduced minimum damage makes it less consistent and lowers the average damage. Alternatively, have it deal 1 INT damage per channel die, save for half. You still have the potential to deal large amounts of INT damage, but not enough to TPK swiftly, and it would require...

Okay. That sounds like a far better compromise to me.


Malignor wrote:

Here's the question:

What's the point of the Harm option if you channel positive energy?

Int damage is ability damage, and IIRC, undead (who are the only valid targets for the harm option) are immune to ability damage.

Possible uses for Alignment Channel, or other variants that let you target plants, elementals, etc. Otherwise, it might just be better to channel negative energy to get the best use out of it. HARM sounds slightly 'evil-ish' in a general sort of way.


DeathlessOne wrote:
Malignor wrote:

Here's the question:

What's the point of the Harm option if you channel positive energy?

Int damage is ability damage, and IIRC, undead (who are the only valid targets for the harm option) are immune to ability damage.

possible uses for Alignment Channel, or other variants that let you target plants, elementals, etc.

Sorry, I deleted my post.

I deleted it because of this...
PRD wrote:

[under UNDEAD TYPE]

Not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects.

So intelligent undead can take Int damage.

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