There is, disappointingly, very little discussion about this archetype floating around so when our newest player (newer than me, which is saying something) brought it up we all pretty much said idfk. Figured I'd type this up while they finish helping him pick a pregen for tonight.
Everyone has varying opinions. My first thought was to tell him to dump strength and pump dex to 18+ and then pick up Agile Maneuvers as his first level feat but beyond that I'm veeeeeery unfamiliar with builds like this so I didn't know what to suggest as far as further feats/gear/etc.
Vicious Stomp and Greater Trip apparently stack to give you two free AoO's on every successful trip so he could be putting down some serious attack volume...but with him dumping strength, they'd be doing pitiful damage. Obviously damage won't be the main focus of the build, but when you're a martial class hitting for 1d4-2 damage at level 1 (more like a flat 1d6 by the time he has both those feats, but still)
So, to nail it all down in cliffnotes form, I'm looking for;
- Feat progression beyond Agile Maneuevers (assuming I'm correct in advising he dump str/pump dex) and Combat Reflexes
- General build advice. I don't even know how one would play a build almost exclusively focused on tripping people. Apparently Maneuver Master gets to make more than one combat maneuver in a turn, so how would this work? You trip more than one person, or trip & then ____? the same person?
Make him a human raised/trained by halflings.
(Use the Human bonus feat at first level to take Racial Heritage: Halfling) so he doesn't get hosed later when things get too big for him to trip faster than he gets his phantom size increase.
I had a build somewhere that at level 12 needed a 3+ on the dice to trip and pin an adult red dragon (CMD 45 or so).
Underfoot adept... Maneuver Master, Sensei, and Hungry Ghost monk (whatever gets the knockdown kick) 3 of them in some combination, I think stack... or they did at the time before the rules got changed.
You don't need agile maneuvers for a trip, since a trip can be done with a weapon, and weapon finesse applies to unarmed.
Combat Reflexes, Imp Trip, Gr Trip, then the grappling feats since the prone bonus to attack applies to maneuvers.
It was a very specific trick... but it works well. It just doesn't do damage, so most people will tell you it becomes worthless.
Wouldn't this combination be illegal as they both change/alter the "bonus feat" at 1st level?
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature
I understand there is some debate on the "or" and table variance is to be expected, but I'm assuming that the PFS tends towards more absolute ruling.
Archetype Stacking and Altering: What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
posted June 2015
So the FAQ does clarify that altering the number of bonus feat is enough to prevent stalking.
...but they don't. Underfoot Adept replaces the first level feat, Maneuver Master replaces Flurry of Blows.
@TGM, your build looks very solid and I'll throw the idea out to him but I doubt he'd go for it. The idea was sparked in the first place because he watched me run my halfling cavalier and wanted his own tiny terror.
...but they don't.
I beg To differ
Underfoot Grace (Ex): At 1st level, an underfoot adept uses his size and grace to avoid the attacks of those he passes. When using the Acrobatics skill to avoid attacks of opportunity by moving through a threatened area or an enemy’s space, he only takes a –5 penalty when doing so at full speed, instead of the normal –10 penalty. This abilityreplaces the bonus feat gained at 1st level.
So here we clearly replace the 1st level bonus feat.
Bonus Feat: In addition to normal monk bonus feats, a maneuver master may select any Improved combat maneuver feat (such as Improved Overrun) as a bonus feat.
At 6th level and above, he may select any Greater combat maneuver feat (such as Greater Grapple) as a bonus feat.
At 10th level and above, he may select any maneuver Strike feat
(such as Tripping Strike) as a bonus feat.
So here we are clearly expending the list of feat available at 1st level by adding "any Improved combat maneuver feat" to the list of available feat.
therefore, as per the FAQ I quoted in my above post, is enough to prevent these 2 archetypes to stack since it clearly indicate that even adding 1 additional bonus feat is sufficent to prevent it.