JamesTheDonkey |
I am building a grenadier alchemist for PFS, and wondering how deliquescent gloves work with my abilities.
I understand that it will allow me to add 1d6 acid damage via the corrosive ability to weapons I hold in my hands. For bombs, does this still work? They are treated as weapons so is there a reason they cannot gain the ability? If they can, does it affect the bomb's splash damage?
Can I add the corrosive ability to alchemical splash weapons I throw?
Finally, if I infuse a weapon with an alchemical splash weapon as per the Alchemical Weapon ability, can the weapon gain the corrosive bonus damage twice, once for the weapon itself and once for the alchemical splash weapon infused on it?
Irwin, the Gnome |
LINK, for reference.
It's tough to say if Bombs are "wielded".
I'd err on the safe side and not attempt it.
Firebug |
Bombs are considered weapons. It is in the rules text for Bombs.
Would you allow a quick-drawn thrown weapon, say a dagger, to gain the corrosive from the gloves?
If yes, why are bombs different?
However, you may find some table variation in PFS as evidenced by this thread. For me, its a weapon, and mechanics relating to weapons apply.
Firebug |
I disagree.
Kinetic Blast says "Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus. The kineticist is never considered to be wielding ...". Specifically calling out that it is a weapon only for the purposes of weapon feats, and that you specifically are never wielding it.
Bombs don't have that language. Simply, "Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus." So in addition to being considered weapons, you can also choose them for feats. Not specifically a weapon for feats only.
Rays, well I'd have to look up whatever is the current FAQ.
Irwin, the Gnome |
The Kinetic Blast language is much newer than the language of Bombs.
"Wielding" was not controversial when the APG was released.
Back then, Developers and Forum posters had a much more intuitive understanding of the game.
As interpretations have leaned more towards hyperliteralization, the Developers have needed to address perceived loopholes.
Many other newer sources have had to go into greater detail to clarify how they work. That doesn't change the rules for past abilities.
JamesTheDonkey |
Good to know I wasn't the only one confused as to how this works.
By the writing, the attack gains the property, so it looks like the bomb attack or the Explosive missile would gain 1d6 acid damage, but I don't think I can stack the acid damage to get multiple damage dice.
With this much debate, however, I am pretty sure I don't want to run this at a PFS table, since I am unsure what the result would be.
Thanks for all the input.
Firebug |
So when bomb says "considered a weapon" the FAQ says to treat it like "considered a manufacturer weapon" then?
Ok how about two weapon fighting? You are required to weild weapons for two weapon fighting. We have a FAQ saying that you can two weapon fight with thrown bombs, assuming fast bombs.
Same for rapid shot, refers to a ranged weapon but we have a FAQ saying "of course you can".
Blake's Tiger |
"Wielding" is different, though.
Of course Bombs are weapons.
But so are Kinetic Blasts.
Neither are "wielded".
EDIT: same for Rays.
+1
However, it doesn't matter. The item description says unarmed strikes, natural attacks, and wielded weapons. They gain the acid damage from the ooze creeping out from the gloves. It never mentions thrown or missle weapons.
I can't coat a weapon and hand it off to someone to give them a damage boost.
The ooze doesn't leave your body, so you can't throw it or shoot it.
_Ozy_ |
It's rather lengthy, but I'll excerpt the relevant bits:
In the same vein as abilities like Arcane Strike that affect a character’s weapons, abilities that say “with a weapon,” “with a melee weapon,” and “with a ranged weapon” almost never work with special abilities because such wording is almost always used as shorthand for “manufactured weapon,” “manufactured melee weapon,” and “manufactured ranged weapon.” The exception is abilities that deal damage when a creature touches or hits you in melee (for instance, the occultis’s energy ward focus power), which should also deal damage when a creature makes a melee touch attack against you but rarely call them out directly.
Certain special abilities (for instance rays, kinetic blasts, and mystic bolts) can specifically be selected with feats like Weapon Focus and Improved Critical. They still aren’t considered a type of weapon for other rules; they are not part of any weapon group and don’t qualify for the effects of fighter weapon training, warpriest sacred weapon, magus arcane pool, paladin divine bond, or any other such ability.
So, 'bombs' are not part of any weapon group, they don't have a size (S, M, L) or a size (light, one-handed, two-handed). They are not manufactured weapons, they are an SU special ability like the kinetic blasts listed above which allow certain feats like Weapon Focus.
JamesTheDonkey |
Klorox, it was less dealing acid damage and more adding 1d6 to bomb damage via an item that I wanted.
_Ozy_, thanks for the link. That is both clear, and saddening.
Finally, and related to my character but slightly off topic for the original post, if I fire a dye arrow (ranged touch, no damage) from a corrosive bow, the arrow gains the corrosive ability. Can an arrow that deals no damage gain bonus damage? I think no, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise.