Society True Silvered Thrones: Did Additional Resources make a mistake?


Pathfinder Society

Scarab Sages

One of my newer characters is a True Silvered Throne, which gets some different benefits than in non-Society play. However, I wonder if Additional Resources made a mistake, because it says they get the Extra Hex feat at 4th level instead of Ritual Hex, yet the non-Society True Silvered Throne gets Ritual Hex at 1st level, and the Society True Silvered Throne still gets the distinctive Scarab of the Second Throne at 4th level. This means that Society True Silvered Thrones get shortchanged starting out (especially since they lose the benefits of a Familiar), while the rewards of the class are unusually concentrated at 4th level.

Perhaps they should get Extra Hex at 1st level instead? If that wasn't a mistake, consider this a petition for errata to that effect.

Also, this is a lesser concern, but I would also like it if they could choose between Iron Will, Improved Initiative, or Skill Focus (Bluff, Diplomacy, or Knowledge [any]) for their 8th-level bonus feat, since those all fit in with the Palatine Eye's teachings and mystic recitations (see Occult Mysteries).

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Online aka Magabeus

Quote:
Perhaps they should get Extra Hex at 1st level instead?

I am not sure if Ritual Hex at level 1 does anything, because the shaman does not qualify for a hex at that level. It is my opinion that it actually comes into play at level 2.

The only reason for taking away something from an archetype for PFS and replacing it with something else at a different level should be a (significant) difference in power level between the two things. Between Ritual Hex and Extra Hex it is my opinion that there is such a difference:

Ritual Hex gives more flexibility at the price of possible failure (which has consequences) and one hour fatigue. Note that you can not take 10 on the skill checks. With a +8 on the knowledge skill check you have only a 20% chance to make the required 2 checks.
Extra Hex has no flexibility and can not fail.

It is my opinion that at lower levels Extra Hex is more powerful than Extra Hex, while at higher levels this reverts. I can support the ruling in additional resources.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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I think the ritual hex was taken away because rituals aren't normally available in PFS.

*

Ritual Hex has prereqs of Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Knowledge (history) 4 ranks, hex class feature, so the earliest you can get the feat is 4th level - there's no mention of the archetype getting it without having to meet the prereqs.
So, it looks like the PFS replacement (Extra Hex) comes in at the level where you'd be able to select Ritual Hex

*** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Andy Brown wrote:

Ritual Hex has prereqs of Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Knowledge (history) 4 ranks, hex class feature, so the earliest you can get the feat is 4th level - there's no mention of the archetype getting it without having to meet the prereqs.

So, it looks like the PFS replacement (Extra Hex) comes in at the level where you'd be able to select Ritual Hex

The wording is correct to get it at level one. Usually they only mention it in the archetype of its impossible to get at any level like the Fighter and arcane strike.

Edit:
You are right that they replaced it when you normally would hey the feat which is something I've never seen them do with other archetype. Maybe its because Extra Hex is more powerful.

*

The archetype says you get Ritual Knowledge as a bonus feat, it doesn't actually say what level you get it at

*** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Andy Brown wrote:
The archetype says you get Ritual Knowledge as a bonus feat, it doesn't actually say what level you get it at

Your right but that defaults to level 1 usually. Mind you this is the book with notoriously bad copy editing in my the places so it could very well be a level 4 ability. They should mention that if that is the case though.

Scarab Sages

Saying it's supposed to get it at 4th level doesn't make sense in light of the cool and distinctive Archetype feature they already get at 4th level.

I am in complete agreement with those saying that in the absence of specifics to the contrary, getting it at 1st level is the default. The fact that it doesn't say the prerequisites are unnecessary to get it is a departure from Paizo's standard MO, though (as is concentrating a 'mother lode' of benefits into a single level rather than spreading them out).

I could understand and stand by getting Extra Hex at 2nd level - in any case, clearly some errata somewhere is needed.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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My understanding of the archetype is that as published, it would grant the Ritual Hex feat at 1st level. That particular aspect is not critical here, though, as the organized play campaign keeps rituals in the domain of GM-controlled and -presented context (the key reason why that feature changed).

When Linda and I discuss the Additional Resources material and those situations where we are adapting printed rules to operated in the organized play setting, we're cautious about what the ramifications are not only from an archetype stacking perspective (i.e. we don't want to "give back" a replaced feature that allows the archetype to stack with other archetypes in ways that were never intended) but also how our changes might introduce an easily abusable situation as an extension of the modification or how it would interact with the campaign's other rules.

In this case, not granting Extra Hex as a bonus feat at 1st level was a purposeful decision.

Scarab Sages

Why 4th level, though? It's uncharacteristic of Paizo to scrunch that much power into a single level. Mightn't 2nd level be better?

Also, what do you think of my idea of expanding the options a little for the 8th-level bonus feat to reflect the broader range of Palatine recitations?

*****

Your question might be better aimed at the design team, if it involves redoing the archetype in such detail.

Scarab Sages

It's aimed at whoever responds to this thread, I guess - and it doesn't really involve redoing the Archetype, just adjusting the way it's adapted for Society play.

Shadow Lodge ***** RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8 aka WalterGM

Lamplighter mentions that because, I believe, the design team doesn't necessarily come down to these boards. So you might have better luck in the pathfinder RPG threads.

Scarab Sages

Are they the ones who make adjustments from the as-printed classes/Archetypes to their Society versions?

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Are they the ones who make adjustments from the as-printed classes/Archetypes to their Society versions?

The Pathfinder Society developers (for the past several years, that's been Linda and me) devise and implement any adjustments to printed archetypes and classes to adapt them to the organized play campaign. In many cases—especially for the Campaign Clarifications document—we consult with whoever developed the book in question, working together to determine if there is an error to correct, a change to institute, or wording to clarify. Hardcover Pathfinder RPG books have their own review process, namely the reprint and errata process; the developers sometimes serve as a sounding board and resource to the designers in that capacity, but the design team is the driving force behind those choices.

So as far as people who would be making a change to this shaman archetype in the organized play campaign, I am he.

Scarab Sages

In that case, then, what do you think?

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

Why 4th level, though? It's uncharacteristic of Paizo to scrunch that much power into a single level. Mightn't 2nd level be better?

Also, what do you think of my idea of expanding the options a little for the 8th-level bonus feat to reflect the broader range of Palatine recitations?

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere aka Rei

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The Paizo offices are closed. John wasn't even obligated to reply to you on Saturday. Your impatience is unlikely to get you a swifter response.

Scarab Sages

Now I get it. I didn't put two and two together.

*****

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Bumping threads repeatedly is a bit of a faux pas. John has already responded multiple times when he did not have to, and it seems that how the development team wanted this implemented has been made abundantly clear.

I think you might be best served letting the issue rest. You do still get the extra hex feat eventually, and continuing to pester the development team is not likely to help your cause. It certainly didn't work for my campaign to have the improved familiar rules looked at again.

I would be very surprised if at this point John, has not added this to the list of thing to possibly reconsider when there is time.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Agent, Kentucky—Lexington

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Actually from my reading of his response, he directly responded to your question (I'm Hiding in your Closet). So what exactly are you questioning about his response?

My reading of his response is that the charge was deliberate and designed to allow the archetype in PFS while simultaneously limiting it to ones that take several rounds.

Scarab Sages

I'm not questioning anything in his response so far, I just want to know what he thinks of my suggestions/arguments for certain readjustments. I think I make a decent case for bumping Extra Hex down to 2nd or 3rd level (I understand the reasoning in not putting it at 1st), and my suggestion for expanding the higher-level bonus feat options is true to the spirit of the Archetype and would hardly "break" anything.

Another pertinent question I just realized I'm not 100% clear on: Does the Society True Silvered Throne still not get an 8th-level Hex?

*****

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It strikes me as mildly petulant to insist that John, or another developer respond to your idea (I'm very sure I've done it myself. I am such a hypocrite), although it is really cool when they do so.

I have met John, and I can assure you he has given your idea at least a passing consideration. He doesn't usually dismiss ideas out of hand.

If you are lucky John may have time to respond some time this week when he is no longer enjoying his extended vacation, and if anyone needs a vacation it is John Compton. I honestly don't know when the guy sleeps between all the work he does to make PFS as amazing as it is. I also would not be surprised if he doesn't respond, since he did answer your original question, with a little bit of follow up.

It is unlikely that extra hex will be moved to a lower level because it speeds too far ahead of other shamans hex progression and makes dipping more attractive. The Shaman does not naturally gain a hex at 2nd or 3rd level and neither does the archetype you want. A shaman which did gain hexes at a faster pace would be considerably better than a shaman that did not. It would be a three level dip for two hexes (evil eye and chant are two good ones) only one off of full Bab progression and second level spells. By making you have to take the fourth level it keeps the archetype for speeding ahead of other Shaman hex progression too much (50% more hexes as opposed to 100% more hexes when the feat is gained) and does not make it a more attractive dipping option.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

I'm not questioning anything in his response so far, I just want to know what he thinks of my suggestions/arguments for certain readjustments. I think I make a decent case for bumping Extra Hex down to 2nd or 3rd level (I understand the reasoning in not putting it at 1st), and my suggestion for expanding the higher-level bonus feat options is true to the spirit of the Archetype and would hardly "break" anything.

Another pertinent question I just realized I'm not 100% clear on: Does the Society True Silvered Throne still not get an 8th-level Hex?

I think that under circumstances in which a GM could observe and course-correct in a long-term campaign, providing Extra Hex at 2nd, 3rd, or even 1st level as a replacement feat would be a very practical option. In an organized play campaign in which it's relatively difficult (or at least painful) to adjust how character options operate post-release, that's not a viable option. Providing an alternate and potent feat at an especially early level might turn the archetype into something that was never intended, such as a multiclassing must-have, and we're loath to make that change.

As for 8th level, we went back and forth on whether to replace that but decided not to for two reasons. First, there are rituals that show up in adventures for which the ability is useful. The second is that if we were to have replaced a second ability, we would have changed so much about the archetype that it would not remotely resemble the original concept; we determined that we would either leave that ability (and the overall archetype integrity) intact, or we would ban the archetype altogether. We determined that the former was a much better option.

In conclusion, we're not changing the archetype for the foreseeable future.

*Considers staying up later to write more game material in order to propogate mythology of sleepless industriouness but decides to just get up early and be industrious in the morning*

Scarab Sages

Mahtobedis wrote:

It strikes me as mildly petulant to insist that John, or another developer respond to your idea (I'm very sure I've done it myself. I am such a hypocrite), although it is really cool when they do so.

What I said was in context of having already gotten his attention; it would be different otherwise.

John Compton wrote:

As for 8th level, we went back and forth on whether to replace that but decided not to for two reasons. First, there are rituals that show up in adventures for which the ability is useful. The second is that if we were to have replaced a second ability, we would have changed so much about the archetype that it would not remotely resemble the original concept; we determined that we would either leave that ability (and the overall archetype integrity) intact, or we would ban the archetype altogether. We determined that the former was a much better option.

Wait; this was unexpected. Additional Resources says you DO replace the 8th-level ability - with Iron Will as a bonus feat - hence the whole point of my suggestion regarding bonus feat possibilities at that level.

Does the Society True Silvered Throne get BOTH the normal ability and a bonus feat, or is there something wrong with the Additional Resources page?

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
John Compton wrote:

As for 8th level, we went back and forth on whether to replace that but decided not to for two reasons. First, there are rituals that show up in adventures for which the ability is useful. The second is that if we were to have replaced a second ability, we would have changed so much about the archetype that it would not remotely resemble the original concept; we determined that we would either leave that ability (and the overall archetype integrity) intact, or we would ban the archetype altogether. We determined that the former was a much better option.

Wait; this was unexpected. Additional Resources says you DO replace the 8th-level ability - with Iron Will as a bonus feat - hence my suggestion regarding bonus feat possibilities at that level.

Does the Society True Silvered Throne get BOTH the normal ability and a bonus feat, or is there something wrong with the Additional Resources page?

No, I was merely not doing my homework (i.e. cross-checking the Additional Resources page) last night after recounting how the conversation went. I do remember discussing the archetype's resemblance to the original (including the "do we just ban it or leave that ability in place"), but I misremebered the final decision. The Additional Resources page is clear on that matter.

As to whether they get the 8th-level hex, the answer is no. Remember how Linda and I aim not to introduce strange side effects by altering an archetype for organized play? That also involves not reinstating replaced abilities. The reason is that if an archetype suddenly doesn't replace an ability, that might allow the archetype to stack with a different archetype, creating something that's starkly at odds with what would otherwise be possible. As a result, the 8th-level hex wasn't going to return; it had to instead receive a fair replacement.

Scarab Sages

So just to be clear: Iron Will or Esoteric Rites?

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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Additional Resources (Pathfinder Player Companion: Occult Origins) wrote:


Archetypes: All archetypes is this book are legal for play. An id rager gains only the emotional focus abilities of a phantom, not the base abilities of a phantom (e.g. slam attacks, armor bonuses, etc.). The true silvered throne archetype grants the Extra Hex feat at 4th level and Iron Will feat at 8th level rather than gaining the ritual hex and esoteric rites abilities.

Iron Will. The Additional Resources page is not in error in this regard; my late-night recollection was.

Scarab Sages

That's kind of a shame; I found your argument persuasive. Thank you for your time, at any rate.

Scarab Sages

One more for the road, if I may: Why is the Forgepriest Warpriest Archetype illegal? It's very similar in character and problems for Society play to the Forgemaster Cleric Archetype, which is Society-legal (but restricted to Dwarves, as is only right and proper) and remedies its problem abilities with Skill Focus (Craft) and Heavy Armor Proficiency respectively. I'm not sure I see why the same couldn't be done for the Forgepriest. Forgemastery could be replaced with Skill Focus (Craft), the bonus feats alteration could substitute access to the new Item Mastery feats for item creation feats (now that they're out there, I can see why that would have been an obstacle when the Forgepriest Archetype was first published), maybe Craft Magic Arms and Armor could be replaced with a reasonable discount to costs to get their equipment enchanted, and I don't think it would be game-breaking to remove the "item he created personally" clause from Creator's Bond to make it otherwise Society-viable.

What do you think, sirs?

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

One more for the road, if I may: Why is the Forgepriest Warpriest Archetype illegal? It's very similar in character and problems for Society play to the Forgemaster Cleric Archetype, which is Society-legal (but restricted to Dwarves, as is only right and proper) and remedies its problem abilities with Skill Focus (Craft) and Heavy Armor Proficiency respectively. I'm not sure I see why the same couldn't be done for the Forgepriest. Forgemastery could be replaced with Skill Focus (Craft), the bonus feats alteration could substitute access to the new Item Mastery feats for item creation feats (now that they're out there, I can see why that would have been an obstacle when the Forgepriest Archetype was first published), maybe Craft Magic Arms and Armor could be replaced with a reasonable discount to costs to get their equipment enchanted, and I don't think it would be game-breaking to remove the "item he created personally" clause from Creator's Bond to make it otherwise Society-viable.

What do you think, sirs?

The forgepriest is banned because the amount of adaptation required to make that archetype function in the organized play program (forge mastery, bonus feats, Craft Magical Arms and Armor, and creator's bond would all require special attention) would leave little of the original archetype intact. The forgemaster cleric, on the other hand, still has a substantial number of abilities (and options for the archetype's main ability) unaltered.

Two off-topic notes:
1) Please start a new thread for questions about other archetypes.
2) Pathfinder RPG counts men, women, and everyone identifying in between among its participants and staff. Given Linda shares in the decision-making process for the Additional Resources choices and the campaign as a whole, you might avoid calling upon "sirs" when seeking resolution—from the community at large and from the developers.

Scarab Sages

John Compton wrote:


2) Pathfinder RPG counts men, women, and everyone identifying in between among its participants and staff. Given Linda shares in the decision-making process for the Additional Resources choices and the campaign as[/ooc]...

It was a whimsical direct reference to Mystery Science Theater 3000 - no offense intended.

Shame about the Forgepriest, but I get it.

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