Dervish Dance + Buckler


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 321 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | next > last >>

15 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Question: does Dervish Dance work while using a buckler?

Slashing Grace FAQ wrote:
Slashing Grace does not allow most shields, but bucklers work because they don’t occupy the hand.

Emphasis mine.

Dervish Dance wrote:
You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
Spoiler:
Lone Wolf Development Support wrote:
Sorry, the faq you're referencing does not interact with dervish dance, because dervish dance's text isn't about whether your off hand is occupied, it is a specific prohibition on having a shield in your off hand. Despite not occupying a hand, bucklers are shields (until some other faq tells us differently) and thus trigger the prohibition on dervish dance.

Spoiler:
I really don't expect something this obvious to generate a large response, and I certainly don't expect a FAQ.

Yes, I know Herolab and Lone Wolf are not rules sources. I do try to file bug reports on occasion when something seems off.

I do, however, try to put forth at least some effort to correct issues as they occur. The best I can do is start a thread and hit the FAQ button.

Sovereign Court

No


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
No

Care to explain your point of view?


yes, it is not being carried on the hand it is attached to the forearm. it works just fine. this has ben discussed a thousand times before.


vhok wrote:
yes, it is not being carried on the hand it is attached to the forearm. it works just fine. this has ben discussed a thousand times before.

Except in Herolab - and the response I received on my bug report, which I posted.

I know the combination is relatively uncontested on the Forums. This thread is an undisguised attempt to reverse the response I posted from Lone Wolf.

The response I received is quoted in the first spoiler.


HeroLab isn't a good rules source, and Paizo has said a few times FAQs only apply to what they are about, nothing more.


Lone Wolf Development Support wrote:

Sorry, the faq you're referencing does not interact with dervish dance, because dervish dance's text isn't about whether your off hand is occupied, it is a specific prohibition on having a shield in your off hand. Despite not occupying a hand, bucklers are shields (until some other faq tells us differently) and thus trigger the prohibition on dervish dance.

lol so despite it not interfering with the feat it interferes with the feat? that's their logic? raw is very very clear. wielding a shield IN YOUR OFFHAND. bucklers as they even admit is NOT IN your offhand. it works just fine. anyone that says otherwise is houseruling it

Sovereign Court

vhok wrote:

Lone Wolf Development Support wrote:

Sorry, the faq you're referencing does not interact with dervish dance, because dervish dance's text isn't about whether your off hand is occupied, it is a specific prohibition on having a shield in your off hand. Despite not occupying a hand, bucklers are shields (until some other faq tells us differently) and thus trigger the prohibition on dervish dance.

lol so despite it not interfering with the feat it interferes with the feat? that's their logic? raw is very very clear. wielding a shield IN YOUR OFFHAND. bucklers as they even admit is NOT IN your offhand. it works just fine. anyone that says otherwise is houseruling it

No - it's because "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand" in Dervish Dance is an entirely different thing from "anytime another hand is otherwise occupied" from Fencing/Slashing Grace.

"Off hand" goes back to anything which uses your "off hand" of effort. It's the same reason that you can't TWF with armor spikes as secondary to the scimitar while using Dervish Dance despite Dervish Dance never specifically disallowing TWF.

Slashing/Fencing Grace only mention the actual hand rather than the "off hand".


I think you are splitting hairs here. Bucklers don't interfere with a Bow use but you don't get the AC bonus when you are using the bow. So you can wear a buckler all day long. Looks pretty but stops providing AC when you use Dervish Dance Slashing Grace. It's a flaw in the wording but the intent is clear. No Bucklers or shields.


Yes

I refuse to believe that the buckler teleports into your hand when you have one get dex to damage feat but is somehow strapped to your arm when you have the other dex to damage feat.

You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.

Benefit: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Yes

I refuse to believe that the buckler teleports into your hand when you have one get dex to damage feat but is somehow strapped to your arm when you have the other dex to damage feat.
...

It doesn't teleport into your hand or anything like that, don't be silly.

It is just metaphorically in your hand while being physically strapped to your arm. See, that makes perfect sense.

***takes cover***


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

There is nothing to question here. A buckler is NOT carried in your hand. It therefore does not interact with dervish dance anymore than if you are wearing shoes or not.

People who want to adjust the power of the feat can, of course, alter the rules as desired for their home games.

As an aside, having a buckler strapped to your back does not effect dervish dance either. The prohibition from dervish dance is not about having a shield. It is that you cannot have it in your hand.

Which, as others have pointed out, is not where you carry a buckler.


Very true but I'd never allow you to gain the AC bonus. You can use a Bow without a buckler interfering, however you never gain the one AC for having it. This is the same idea. The idea behind Dervish Dance and Slashing Grace are clear one handed whirlwinds of damage.
Regardless of rules or theme what I'm not getting is why you are fighting so hard for a bonus of one?


Derek Dalton wrote:
Very true but I'd never allow you to gain the AC bonus. You can use a Bow without a buckler interfering, however you never gain the one AC for having it. This is the same idea. The idea behind Dervish Dance and Slashing Grace are clear one handed whirlwinds of damage.

Absolutely not.

With slashing grace you absolutely 100% CAN use the buckler. That means getting the AC, not making it look pretty. There is absolutely no doubt there, the FAQ said it works.

to take the 99.99999% similarity and have it NOT apply to dervish dance because of a vague handwave at "reasons" is a level of technical absurdity that would break every other aspect of the game or grind it into epistemic nihlism if we applied it there.

Quote:
Regardless of rules or theme what I'm not getting is why you are fighting so hard for a bonus of one?

It's not 1. it's 1 and the enchantments you put on it, which can easily be +5 as a shield is one of the cheapest sources of armor out there.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Because it can go up to a bonus of 6? Or less than 6 and have a lot of other useful things?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

No matter what, Shield Gauntlet Style works just fine.

Sczarni

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Ignore HeroLab.

They are wrong fairly often.


Nefreet wrote:

Ignore HeroLab.

They are wrong fairly often.

Except when they get super secret developer rulings...


Azten wrote:
Because it can go up to a bonus of 6? Or less than 6 and have a lot of other useful things?

To be honest, the build I was looking at used Unhindered Shield to allow a magus to retain the AC bonus while using spell combat. With Shield Focus as a prerequisite, the bonus could have gone to +7

As a side note: Unhindered Shield does not allow Dervish Dance to function while using a buckler in Herolab - Lone Wolf also rejected my assertion that it should.

Sovereign Court

William H Watson wrote:


As an aside, having a buckler strapped to your back does not effect dervish dance either. The prohibition from dervish dance is not about having a shield. It is that you cannot have it in your hand.

No - it's that you can't have it in your "off hand". Entirely different in Pathfinder terms.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
William H Watson wrote:


As an aside, having a buckler strapped to your back does not effect dervish dance either. The prohibition from dervish dance is not about having a shield. It is that you cannot have it in your hand.
No - it's that you can't have it in your "off hand". Entirely different in Pathfinder terms.

Bucklers do not occupy the hand.

Sovereign Court

Snowlilly wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
William H Watson wrote:


As an aside, having a buckler strapped to your back does not effect dervish dance either. The prohibition from dervish dance is not about having a shield. It is that you cannot have it in your hand.
No - it's that you can't have it in your "off hand". Entirely different in Pathfinder terms.
Bucklers do not occupy the hand.

No - but they do occupy your "off hand".


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
William H Watson wrote:


As an aside, having a buckler strapped to your back does not effect dervish dance either. The prohibition from dervish dance is not about having a shield. It is that you cannot have it in your hand.
No - it's that you can't have it in your "off hand". Entirely different in Pathfinder terms.
Bucklers do not occupy the hand.
No - but they do occupy your "off hand".
Slashing Grace wrote:
You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.

Apparently not, since according to the FAQ, bucklers work with Slashing Grace.

And, per the rules for bucklers, they do not occupy the metaphorical "off-hand", which remains available for TWF and two-handing other weapons.

Buckler wrote:
You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an offhand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Exactly.

Off-hand, or "off-hand", or carried, or held, you're safe with a Buckler.

HeroLab is not a rules source at any table, anywhere.

Silver Crusade

I think the basic argument is

1) Prior to the slashing grace/etc ruling it was pretty clear that the intent (including non binding commentary) was that one could NOT use Dervish Dance and Buckler. RAW still unclear but most people came down on the side of "not allowed"

2) After the Slashing Grace argument there are two points of view
a) FAQ covers exactly what it says and no more. Buckler still illegal
b) a above makes absolutely no sense and is just so insanely stupid that nobody could possibly mean it.

So, bottom line, in PFS expect table variation. I suspect that this is an area where local geographies will come to a shared understanding so you're probably ok if your local Venture Officers or Coordinators or Rules Mavens say its ok

Sovereign Court

Snowlilly wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:


No - but they do occupy your "off hand".
Slashing Grace wrote:
You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.
Apparently not, since according to the FAQ, bucklers work with Slashing Grace.

Slashing Grace never mentioned "off hand" - so your point is moot, and it actually helps my argument.


Given that the examples of slashing grace not working with the classic 'off-hand' activities: flurry of blows, TWF, your argument focusing on the exact semantics is not that compelling.


I know this has been asked many times before (way before the ACG was out). And I distinctly remember the consensus being a "Yes".
The build I was researching for was stopped from using a buckler since I had to take levels in Monk. Now, with the Unhindering Shield feat out, I think I'll revisit that build.

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:


No - but they do occupy your "off hand".
Slashing Grace wrote:
You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.
Apparently not, since according to the FAQ, bucklers work with Slashing Grace.
Slashing Grace never mentioned "off hand"

Does not matter. Bucklers do not occupy a hand, not only in regards to Slashing Grace.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Expect table variance.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Given that the examples of slashing grace not working with the classic 'off-hand' activities: flurry of blows, TWF, your argument focusing on the exact semantics is not that compelling.

The classic "off-hand" activities of TWH, THF and using a bow were never an issue for bucklers.

Core Rulebook, without FAQs, allowed those activities.

Flurry of blows never mentions shields. A monk cannot flurry with a shield because it is not a monk weapon.

The prohibition on monks using shields comes from the AC bonus

Quote:
He loses these bonuses ... when he carries a shield, ...

By the most pedantic reading, the monk loses his AC bonus if he straps a shield to his back. Most would only apply the penalty if the monk is benefiting from a shield's AC bonus. In either case, the hand is not referenced.


James Risner wrote:
Expect table variance.

This should not be a matter of table variance. Denying a player an item that they've bought should take more than the POSSIBILITY that there is some unspecified distinction between dervish dance and slashing grace that in some unspecified way makes a difference.

Shadow Lodge

Im pretty sure this was officially answered a few years back saying that Yes, you can use a buckler with Dervish Dance, and yes it was intended to work, (both in and outside of PFS). On my phone, so I cant really check, but a search should turn up something.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
DM Beckett wrote:
Im pretty sure this was officially answered a few years back saying that Yes, you can use a buckler with Dervish Dance, and yes it was intended to work, (both in and outside of PFS). On my phone, so I cant really check, but a search should turn up something.

After about seven minutes of searching, I haven't found anything to back this up.

Here's Mark Seifter saying a lot of words without giving a clear answer, though. ^_^


They really need to end this "rules from this line get errata'd and rules from his line" don't." thing they have going. I don't think anyone cares where the rules come from except when that they come from paizo.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

The root problem is Dervish Dance calls out shields and a buckler is a shield, so whether or not Slashing Grace allows a shield is irrelevant for many GM's.

So this comes down to table variance until settled in an FAQ itself, and it isn't a GM being a meanie.


James Risner wrote:
The root problem is Dervish Dance calls out shields and a buckler is a shield, so whether or not Slashing Grace allows a shield is irrelevant for many GM's.

It calls out shields carried in your off hand.

you cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.

A buckler is strapped to your forearm, it isn't in your off hand.

Now, I thought the distinction that a buckler was strapped to your arm was a bit of a stretch, but since they allowed it for slashing grace which is functionally identical there is NO reason not to allow it for dervish dance.

Quote:
So this comes down to table variance until settled in an FAQ itself, and it isn't a GM being a meanie.

The DM is splitting hairs on a level that would induce fission to avoid being objectively wrong and THEN arbitrarily deciding against the player. There is no justification for doing this.

RAW:It is not required by raw: RAW goes with the idea that it works. There's no raw justification for it not working. Saying that they're slightly different doesn't show how they wind up being giving different answers, only that they MIGHT possibly MAYBE give different answers, which is itself not enough to justify a different answer.

RAI: The wording between the two is close enough to have identical intents. Saying that there

Power: Slashing grace works with more weapons. Dervish dance only works as one. Slashing grace takes weapon focus which is kinda of a given anyway. Dervish dance takes up 2 skill points in perform dance (or a dip into dervish dancing bard) The feats are very comparable without having 1 say you can use bucklers and the other saying you can't.

There is no rules paradigm under which it makes any sense for these feats to function differently.

TLDR: "The faq doesn't absolutely prove that I'm wrong so therefore I'm right" is a HORRIBLE justification for telling a player they wasted 5,000 gold pieces.


Snowlilly wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Given that the examples of slashing grace not working with the classic 'off-hand' activities: flurry of blows, TWF, your argument focusing on the exact semantics is not that compelling.

The classic "off-hand" activities of TWH, THF and using a bow were never an issue for bucklers.

Core Rulebook, without FAQs, allowed those activities.

Flurry of blows never mentions shields. A monk cannot flurry with a shield because it is not a monk weapon.

The prohibition on monks using shields comes from the AC bonus

Quote:
He loses these bonuses ... when he carries a shield, ...

By the most pedantic reading, the monk loses his AC bonus if he straps a shield to his back. Most would only apply the penalty if the monk is benefiting from a shield's AC bonus. In either case, the hand is not referenced.

You missed my point.

You were saying that Slashing Grace is different since it doesn't specifically mention 'off-hand', unlike Dervish Dance. Yet slashing grace explicitly says that it can't be used with Flurry of Blows, and this is precisely because Flurry of Blows counts as 'off-hand' usage, as does TWF even if there is nothing physically in your other hand.

So clearly Slashing Grace is subject to 'off-hand' usage, and yet it allows buckler usage. Thus, one is forced to conclude that bucklers don't count as 'off-hand' usage.

This is further complicated by the fact that Spell Combat, which triggers some 'off-hand' usage, is incompatible with Slashing Grace, but it works with Dervish Dance.

So, can you Dervish Dance + Buckler + Spell Combat?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
_Ozy_ wrote:

You missed my point.

You were saying that Slashing Grace is different since it doesn't specifically mention 'off-hand', unlike Dervish Dance. Yet slashing grace explicitly says that it can't be used with Flurry of Blows, and this is precisely because Flurry of Blows counts as 'off-hand' usage, as does TWF even if there is nothing physically in your other hand.

So clearly Slashing Grace is subject to 'off-hand' usage, and yet it allows buckler usage. Thus, one is forced to conclude that bucklers don't count as 'off-hand' usage.

This is further complicated by the fact that Spell Combat, which triggers some 'off-hand' usage, is incompatible with Slashing Grace, but it works with Dervish Dance.

Nothing in RAW even hints that Slashing Grace's list of exclusions are tied to a metaphorical "off-hand" usage. What is clearly stated is:

1) FAQ: the buckler does not occupy a hand.
2) CRB: bucklers can be used in conjunction with other activities that do require the metaphorical "off-hand."

You are grasping straws, attempting to justify a pre-existing conclusion.

Quote:
So, can you Dervish Dance + Buckler + Spell Combat?

I would argue that the magus could have a buckler equipped, but not benefit from the shield bonus on rounds a spell is cast. The restriction has nothing to do with spell combat.

Buckler wrote:
You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler’s Armor Class bonus until your next turn.

I ran into the issue with Herolab while playing with a magus/swashbuckler build using Unhindered Shield, which does allow a magus to benefit from a buckler while using Spell Combat.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Snowlilly wrote:
Nothing in RAW even hints that Slashing Grace's list of exclusions are tied to a metaphorical "off-hand" usage

They are metaphorical for a reason.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Now, I thought the distinction that a buckler was strapped to your arm was a bit of a stretch, but since they allowed it for slashing grace which is functionally identical there is NO reason not to allow it for dervish dance.

They are far from identical. You can dervish dance + spell combat but no slashing grace + spell combat.

Shadow Lodge

Kalindlara wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Im pretty sure this was officially answered a few years back saying that Yes, you can use a buckler with Dervish Dance, and yes it was intended to work, (both in and outside of PFS). On my phone, so I cant really check, but a search should turn up something.

After about seven minutes of searching, I haven't found anything to back this up.

Here's Mark Seifter saying a lot of words without giving a clear answer, though. ^_^

I don't know. If I'd seen this a few days ago, I could probably link it to you. My computer died this weekend, I and lost every PF ruling/FAQ/Note bookmark I had saved for years back. If I recall, this would have been in the 2011-2012 time frame, and very much predated the Fencing/Slashing Grace options, but outright stated yes, you can use a buckler because it did not take up your hand, and yes that that was intentional, because they specified "carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand" rather than "using a shield" or "fighting with two weapons".

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
DM Beckett wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Im pretty sure this was officially answered a few years back saying that Yes, you can use a buckler with Dervish Dance, and yes it was intended to work, (both in and outside of PFS). On my phone, so I cant really check, but a search should turn up something.

After about seven minutes of searching, I haven't found anything to back this up.

Here's Mark Seifter saying a lot of words without giving a clear answer, though. ^_^

I don't know. If I'd seen this a few days ago, I could probably link it to you. My computer died this weekend, I and lost every PF ruling/FAQ/Note bookmark I had saved for years back. If I recall, this would have been in the 2011-2012 time frame, and very much predated the Fencing/Slashing Grace options, but outright stated yes, you can use a buckler because it did not take up your hand, and yes that that was intentional, because they specified "carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand" rather than "using a shield" or "fighting with two weapons".

After seven more minutes of searching, looking specifically for posts in that year range... still nothing. Just the exact same thread we're having now. ^_^

Unfortunately, until you can produce it, I doubt anyone will take your word for it.


Nicos wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Now, I thought the distinction that a buckler was strapped to your arm was a bit of a stretch, but since they allowed it for slashing grace which is functionally identical there is NO reason not to allow it for dervish dance.

They are far from identical. You can dervish dance + spell combat but no slashing grace + spell combat.

Well yeah, but that means that dervish dance is even less hindered by 'offhand' use and therefore less likely to be restricted due to buckler use.


Snowlilly wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

You missed my point.

You were saying that Slashing Grace is different since it doesn't specifically mention 'off-hand', unlike Dervish Dance. Yet slashing grace explicitly says that it can't be used with Flurry of Blows, and this is precisely because Flurry of Blows counts as 'off-hand' usage, as does TWF even if there is nothing physically in your other hand.

So clearly Slashing Grace is subject to 'off-hand' usage, and yet it allows buckler usage. Thus, one is forced to conclude that bucklers don't count as 'off-hand' usage.

This is further complicated by the fact that Spell Combat, which triggers some 'off-hand' usage, is incompatible with Slashing Grace, but it works with Dervish Dance.

Nothing in RAW even hints that Slashing Grace's list of exclusions are tied to a metaphorical "off-hand" usage.

Really? Then what is it tied to, pray tell.

Quote:
Quote:
So, can you Dervish Dance + Buckler + Spell Combat?

I would argue that the magus could have a buckler equipped, but not benefit from the shield bonus on rounds a spell is cast. The restriction has nothing to do with spell combat.

Buckler wrote:
You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler’s Armor Class bonus until your next turn.
I ran into the issue with Herolab while playing with a magus/swashbuckler build using Unhindered Shield, which does allow a magus to benefit from a buckler while using Spell Combat.

That's because unhindered shield specifically removes pretty much all impact of a buckler, and allows the shield bonus even when that hand is being used, whether for a weapon or a spell. Heck, it even bypasses the monk's restriction and lets them use a buckler with all of their special abilities intact.


Nicos wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Now, I thought the distinction that a buckler was strapped to your arm was a bit of a stretch, but since they allowed it for slashing grace which is functionally identical there is NO reason not to allow it for dervish dance.

They are far from identical. You can dervish dance + spell combat but no slashing grace + spell combat.

Spell combat has nothing to do with bucklers.

Spell Combat wrote:
To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free

As quoted in prior posts:

1. Bucklers do not occupy a hand
2. Spells may be cast while a buckler is equipped


_Ozy_ wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

You missed my point.

You were saying that Slashing Grace is different since it doesn't specifically mention 'off-hand', unlike Dervish Dance. Yet slashing grace explicitly says that it can't be used with Flurry of Blows, and this is precisely because Flurry of Blows counts as 'off-hand' usage, as does TWF even if there is nothing physically in your other hand.

So clearly Slashing Grace is subject to 'off-hand' usage, and yet it allows buckler usage. Thus, one is forced to conclude that bucklers don't count as 'off-hand' usage.

This is further complicated by the fact that Spell Combat, which triggers some 'off-hand' usage, is incompatible with Slashing Grace, but it works with Dervish Dance.

Nothing in RAW even hints that Slashing Grace's list of exclusions are tied to a metaphorical "off-hand" usage.
Really? Then what is it tied to, pray tell.

No clue, but bucklers have never used the off hand, physically or metaphorically. RAW has already been provided demonstrating this.

Quote:
Quote:
So, can you Dervish Dance + Buckler + Spell Combat?

I would argue that the magus could have a buckler equipped, but not benefit from the shield bonus on rounds a spell is cast. The restriction has nothing to do with spell combat.

Buckler wrote:
You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler’s Armor Class bonus until your next turn.
I ran into the issue with Herolab while playing with a magus/swashbuckler build using Unhindered Shield, which does allow a magus to benefit from a buckler while using Spell Combat.
That's because unhindered shield specifically removes pretty much all impact of a buckler, and allows the shield bonus even when that hand is being used, whether for a weapon or a spell. Heck, it even bypasses the monk's restriction and lets them use a buckler with all of their special abilities intact.

I agree.

Herolab does not. Even with Unhindered Shield, Dervish Dance was disabled.


Snowlilly wrote:
Nicos wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Now, I thought the distinction that a buckler was strapped to your arm was a bit of a stretch, but since they allowed it for slashing grace which is functionally identical there is NO reason not to allow it for dervish dance.

They are far from identical. You can dervish dance + spell combat but no slashing grace + spell combat.

Spell combat has nothing to do with bucklers.

Spell Combat wrote:
To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free

As quoted in prior posts:

1. Bucklers do not occupy a hand
2. Spells may be cast while a buckler is equipped

since a Hand can be a "hand", in the metaphorical sense, there is not enough clarity to make a undisputable ruling.


Snowlilly wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:


Nothing in RAW even hints that Slashing Grace's list of exclusions are tied to a metaphorical "off-hand" usage.
Really? Then what is it tied to, pray tell.
No clue, but bucklers have never used the off hand, physically or metaphorically. RAW has already been provided demonstrating this.

You have no clue as to what the exclusions are tied to, but you're sure it's not the metaphorical offhand? Even though that's really the only thing TWF and Flurry of Blows have in common? Come one, we can put 2 and 2 together here.

Quote:

I agree.

Herolab does not. Even with...

A good reason not to spend money on Herolab.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Fact: Buckler is a shield
Fact: The off hand is not the hand that is not holding a weapon in pathfinder, but rather the description of space on your character for an item.
Fact: Bucklers are not held in a hand.
Fact: Shields are weilded in your "off hand" (assuming the main hand is occupied)
Fact: Carry is not defined in the rule book.
Supposition: In order to wield an item it must be carried in the place it is being weilded.
Fact: Paizo's FAQs only address what they say they are, so the Slashing Grace faq has no bearing on this issue.

So a Buckler is strapped to the wrist, and weilded in the "off hand". Because the Buckler is an item that is being weilded in the off hand, it is also being carried there. Therefore, you cannot weild a Buckler and use Dervish Dance. If you want Dex to damage and a Buckler, spend the extra feat and learn Slashing Grace.

Turbo fact: I and other GMs who have this interpretation are not cheating or changing the rules. We just disagree with those who think they can use bucklers with dervish dance. Get over it.


Mahtobedis wrote:

...

Fact: The off hand is not the hand that is not holding a weapon in pathfinder, but rather the description of space on your character for an item.
Fact: Shields are weilded in your "off hand" (assuming the main hand is occupied)
...

Can I get citations for these two?

1 to 50 of 321 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Dervish Dance + Buckler All Messageboards