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If you are wearing armor with armor spikes, and you make your initial grapple check to grapple someone, do the armor spikes deal their damage if you succeed?
What if you maintain the grapple and choose the "pin" option, or some other option other than "damage"?
After some research, the answer seem to mostly be inconclusive, though with a heavy lean towards the "no it does not deal damage, unless you are maintaining and choosing the damage option, and then it only does the damage of the spikes (with appropriate modifiers), not unarmed+spikes or some other combination".
I just wanted to see if there was ever a more solid answer on this, or if it's still considered vague, or if maybe the consensus has switched back to the idea that the spikes deal auto damage on any successful grapple check.
Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see "spiked armor" on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.
The spike description specifies that the damage is done on a grapple attack. Initiating a grapple and using a grapple to pin is not considered an attack.
The use of armour spikes for normal melee attacks seems to indicate that the spikes would be on the outer sleeve of the armour and not all over it. If this is so then grappling someone with armour spikes is not the same as them hugging a pin cushion.
Combat Maneuvers are attack rolls, so initiating a grapple would be a "Grapple Attack", as would maintaining a grapple since it's the same kind of roll.
Also, the flavor of where the spikes are and using them as a weapon for a normal attack weren't up for discussion. I think it's pretty clear that you can use armor spikes as if they were a melee weapon. The confusion comes in when using them with grappling. There is some wording ("deal extra piercing damage on a successful grapple attack") that appears to imply that it just ADDS damage to any successful grapple attack roll; even the ones that don't normally do damage, like initiating a grapple or maintaining a grapple and choosing an option other than damage.
It's easy to say that you can use them as your weapon when you maintain the grapple and choose the damage option; it's specifically listed as such in the damage option.
But do I automatically get the damage on other grapple rolls? What if I do choose option, but use my unarmed damage instead (as a Monk or Brawler would likely do, since they have good unarmed damage)? Do I get "extra piercing damage", on top of my unarmed strike damage, equal to the spike damage?
RaizielDragon wrote: Combat Maneuvers are attack rolls, so initiating a grapple would be a "Grapple Attack", as would maintaining a grapple since it's the same kind of roll.
No they are not. Disarm, sunder, and trip are the only three combat maneuvers that count as attacks.
Combat Maneuver
Under "Performing a Combat Maneuver"
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver." Emphasiss mine.
gnrrrg wrote: No they are not. Disarm, sunder, and trip are the only three combat maneuvers that count as attacks. Why?
all maneuvers are attacks.
Only some can be swapped in for a weapon attack in a full attack.
But all are attack rolls.
So now that we've established that, and gotten off the side-rail, back to the original question:
Do armor spikes deal their "extra piercing damage" on all grapple checks/attacks, including the initial one to initiate the grapple and the checks to maintain a grapple when NOT using the "damage" option of maintaining a grapple?
Also, when you DO use the damage option of maintaining a grapple, is the "extra piercing damage" added on if you use your unarmed strike damage as the option for the damage?
Then the deciding factor falls to the description of a combat maneuver:
Combat Maneuver: This is an action taken in combat that does not directly cause harm to your opponent, such as attempting to trip him, disarm him, or grapple with him (see Chapter 8). (CRB pg 11)
and the GMs definition of "extra damage".
I've got a character that uses a corrosive whip. Most GMs tell me that it will not deal the additional acid damage on a trip or disarm because trip and disarm don't deal damage. Mathematically, you can always add to zero, but the consistent argument that I have heard is that you cannot deal extra damage unless you first deal damage. If that is so, then the armour spikes would only deal extra damage if the attack option is used when maintaining a grapple (unless the character has some other feat, trait, class feature, etc that allows damage to be dealt).
Yeah, constrict was going to be my follow-up question, since it deals damage on any successful grapple check.
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