When were metamagic rods errata'd?


Advice


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Metamagic rods used to not increase spell level slot OR casting time. The second part no longer appears to be true with spontaneous casters. When were they errata'd? I can't believe something like that snuck past me!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It was a FAQ. Six months ago, give or take.


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Since at least December of last year since it was mentioned on this post.

click here


My sixth printing July 2013 CRB has the line:

Quote:

A sorcerer still must take a full-round

action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic
feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be
used as a swift action).

I'm trying to put my hands on my first printing; since none of the published errata on the downloads page reflects this change, I suspect it's been that way since the beginning.

The Exchange

Ravingdork wrote:
Metamagic rods used to not increase spell level slot OR casting time. The second part no longer appears to be true with spontaneous casters. When were they errata'd? I can't believe something like that snuck past me!

I never played 3.5 but that's been true since at least the first printing of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. Or - at least - the errata documents don't indicate any change between 1st and 6th.

Maybe it's just something you assumed worked one way and it never really registered that it worked another way?


Belafon wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Metamagic rods used to not increase spell level slot OR casting time. The second part no longer appears to be true with spontaneous casters. When were they errata'd? I can't believe something like that snuck past me!

I never played 3.5 but that's been true since at least the first printing of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. Or - at least - the errata documents don't indicate any change between 1st and 6th.

Maybe it's just something you assumed worked one way and it never really registered that it worked another way?

To the best of my knowledge that was a rule in 3.5. It may have been errata, and I don't remember if it was a rule in 3.0


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Paizo doesn't seem to like spontaneous casters much.


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swoosh wrote:
Paizo doesn't seem to like spontaneous casters much.

Spontaneous casting has been overvalued throughout all of 3rd Edition, including Pathfinder.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

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Ravingdork wrote:
Metamagic rods used to not increase spell level slot OR casting time.

You recall incorrectly. Ever since metamagic rods existed in D&D, they've always increased casting time for spontaneous casters (but not level). This is not something that Paizo has changed or errata'ed, ever.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Kurald Galain wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Metamagic rods used to not increase spell level slot OR casting time.
You recall incorrectly. Ever since metamagic rods existed in D&D, they've always increased casting time for spontaneous casters (but not level). This is not something that Paizo has changed or errata'ed, ever.

Just checked my 3.5 DMG. Seems you are correct.

Brains are funny things.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Dammit, saw the thread title and was hopeful they had fixed rods so they didn't screw over spontaneous casters :(


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Quantum Steve wrote:
I'm trying to put my hands on my first printing; since none of the published errata on the downloads page reflects this change, I suspect it's been that way since the beginning.

I just checked my 1st printing copy and... the text is present.

Shadow Lodge

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swoosh wrote:
Paizo doesn't seem to like spontaneous casters much.

In 3.5 it was 'Skip Hates Sorcerers'.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

In 4th edition it was "wait, you're playing a Sorcerer, how do you tell!"


why do meta magic rods work this way personally I do not think its fun as a caster to take longer just for the increased effect, personally in my groups games meta magic rods do not take up an increased time to cast or a higher spell slot


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Can we get an errata that forces prepared casters to use the rod during spell prep...or make everyone take a full round action when using them?


TOZ wrote:
swoosh wrote:
Paizo doesn't seem to like spontaneous casters much.
In 3.5 it was 'Skip Hates Sorcerers'.

I thought Monte hated them, too, or was it just Skip?


TOZ wrote:
swoosh wrote:
Paizo doesn't seem to like spontaneous casters much.
In 3.5 it was 'Skip Hates Sorcerers'.

Well to be fair, I hated them too. Why bother having a class that's so nearly identical to another in the same book? It could have just been a variant in unearthed arcana or something and maybe we could have gotten a cool class incorporated as a core component of the game instead. PF at least tried to make them seem a little.. something.

That's another topic though. I just wish 'we hate this class' translated into 'wait why is this even in the book' rather than 'intentionally bad'.

captain yesterday wrote:
In 4th edition it was "wait, you're playing a Sorcerer, how do you tell!"

You can tell because sorcerers are the ones that do gobs and gobs of DPR and trivialize the whole game because they were very badly balanced. Slide enemies back and forth through your fire until they all die. It's gross.


swoosh wrote:
You can tell because sorcerers are the ones that do gobs and gobs of DPR and trivialize the whole game because they were very badly balanced. Slide enemies back and forth through your fire until they all die. It's gross.

Well, to be fair, all that requires is a DM saying that zone juggling doesn't work.


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swoosh wrote:


You can tell because sorcerers are the ones that do gobs and gobs of DPR and trivialize the whole game because they were very badly balanced. Slide enemies back and forth through your fire until they all die. It's gross.

Your thinking of Wizards. Sorcerers had limited control abilities that acted like that. On top of that they errata'd that early on.


Declindgrunt wrote:
why do meta magic rods work this way personally I do not think its fun as a caster to take longer just for the increased effect, personally in my groups games meta magic rods do not take up an increased time to cast or a higher spell slot

Because the feats work that way and items shouldn't beat out/be better than the feat, at least that is my guess.


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Skylancer4 wrote:
Declindgrunt wrote:
why do meta magic rods work this way personally I do not think its fun as a caster to take longer just for the increased effect, personally in my groups games meta magic rods do not take up an increased time to cast or a higher spell slot
Because the feats work that way and items shouldn't beat out/be better than the feat, at least that is my guess.

Ehh, seems unlikely as they are arguably already better then the feat in a lot of cases. Especially for wizards who, as HyperMissingo pointed out, get to add metamagic on the fly which is normally the thing they can't do at all. It is letting wizards ignore both restrictions they face with metamagic (slots and prep) while ignoring slots for sorcerers.


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Wizards casting from a rod is not a spontaneous caster. The rod does not change that. The spell is still prepared even if the wizard used a rod to modify the spell.

PS: I am not arguing what is fair, but what the rules is. In fairness the spontaneous casters were assumed to get more out of metamagic rules than they actually get, and the rules never changed when PF came into existence after 3.5.


Ravingdork wrote:
Metamagic rods used to not increase spell level slot OR casting time. The second part no longer appears to be true with spontaneous casters. When were they errata'd? I can't believe something like that snuck past me!

It's been that way since 3.X. For sorcerers and other spontaneous casters, all metamagic rod use is full casting round unless it's quickened.


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HyperMissingno wrote:
Can we get an errata that forces prepared casters to use the rod during spell prep...or make everyone take a full round action when using them?

I'd prefer the metamagic rod during spell prep. If they are going to lock spontaneous casters into how their metamagic spells are normally cast, they should do the same for prepared casters. There is no reason for prepared casters to be able to cheat the system like that when spontaneous cannot.


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HyperMissingno wrote:
Can we get an errata that forces prepared casters to use the rod during spell prep...or make everyone take a full round action when using them?

Probably not. It's highly unlikely the overvaluation of Spontaneous Casting is going to go away in this iteration of the game.


Ravingdork wrote:
Kurald Galain wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Metamagic rods used to not increase spell level slot OR casting time.
You recall incorrectly. Ever since metamagic rods existed in D&D, they've always increased casting time for spontaneous casters (but not level). This is not something that Paizo has changed or errata'ed, ever.

Just checked my 3.5 DMG. Seems you are correct.

Brains are funny things.

Have you had an unscheduled klonk on the head perhaps? You are usually a lot more on top of standard rules like this.


I never noticed this. But then I've only used the quicken meta magic rod. All the others never really seem worth the GP cost. Not for the sorcerer I've played at least.

Did use it on a an Inquisitor but it never came up as I used a rod of extend at the start of day on Magic Vestment and Great magic weapon.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Indeed, my druids rock extend rods for their hour/level spells. Also Barkskin.

Grand Lodge

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Extend, reach, rime, persistent and intensify have all been great for me. Recently, I have started using merciful (1000gp), fleeting (1000gp), and encouraging (3000gp). Non-leathal damage, to make a spell dismissals and it increase morale bonus by 1 respectively. Encouraging has been a boon my tables used with heroism and good hope.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Kurald Galain wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Metamagic rods used to not increase spell level slot OR casting time.
You recall incorrectly. Ever since metamagic rods existed in D&D, they've always increased casting time for spontaneous casters (but not level). This is not something that Paizo has changed or errata'ed, ever.

Just checked my 3.5 DMG. Seems you are correct.

Brains are funny things.

Have you had an unscheduled klonk on the head perhaps? You are usually a lot more on top of standard rules like this.

No one is 100% perfectly correct all the time, and I'm certainly no exception despite my mastery of rules fu. I blame sleep deprivation in this case.

The Exchange

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Skylancer4 wrote:
Declindgrunt wrote:
why do meta magic rods work this way personally I do not think its fun as a caster to take longer just for the increased effect, personally in my groups games meta magic rods do not take up an increased time to cast or a higher spell slot
Because the feats work that way and items shouldn't beat out/be better than the feat, at least that is my guess.

I think you're right about the intention, but in practice it seems the rods are usually better for prepared casters than the feat (if they can afford/find the rod they are looking for). It comes down to whether feats or money is the limiting factor in your game.

It's especially noticeable when it comes to the few metamagic feats that do favor the spontaneous casters. Merciful and Threnodic come to mind as prepared metamagic spells that may turn out to be useless if facing the wrong kind of enemy. A spontaneous caster can just decide not to use the feat. Rods mean the prep casters don't need to prepare with the feat at all.

Reach is still the one metamagic feat that is absolutely amazing as a known feat for spontaneous casters. You always have exactly the right range. (The rod only does one category increase.)


It also depends on the prepared caster. If you have bond with a staff or other hand-held item, you are kinda screwed with rods. You need to be wielding the staff to not have to worry about the check for casting (last I remember from the FAQ back when it came out). You need a hand free and depending on who you are and what you are doing, that may not be available. Have a wand out? You need your free hand to cast, no rod. The description for rods state "wielding it", having it dangling off your belt or in your pack doesn't cut it (barring an FAQ haven't read up on, been awhile). So rods in combat are significantly more restrictive than people give them credit for. Unless you are the type of caster who doesn't have weapons or held spells or anything in your hands (which means you are probably powerful enough for the rods to be irrelevant).

Being able to cast a spell situationally without feat investment is good for any caster, it favors them both. Spontaneous casters have poorer action economy when using meta feats, yes, you cannot separate that out. It is hard coded into the class. As such it cannot be "figured in" to how an item "favors one class or another", it does what it does regardless of which class is using it. Using the rod to cast a spell doesn't make the spontaneous caster have a longer cast time. Using metamagic does. You need to separate those two concepts. Both classes cast spells in the exact same way they normally would regarding metamagic, with or without the rod.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well Pathfinder does have Spontaneous Metafocus.

Or be a wizard with Preferred Spell.


At one spell per instance, unless I know I'm casting that spell every encounter, it is pretty much not worth it. The utility of the rod stays intact and outweighs the feat until you know it will be cast every slot of that level. And the power of casters is their utility in having multiple "answers" for problems.

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