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Skip to end for actual question, I just wanted all the facts and speculation in the first post.
Relevant Text:
Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A flask breaks if thrown against the body of a corporeal creature, but to use it against an incorporeal creature, you must open the flask and pour the holy water out onto the target. Thus, you can douse an incorporeal creature with holy water only if you are adjacent to it. Doing so is a ranged touch attack that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
A direct hit by a flask of holy water deals 2d4 points of damage to an undead creature or an evil outsider. Each such creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of damage from the splash.
Temples to good deities sell holy water at cost (making no profit). Holy water is made using the bless water spell.
Made by Bless Water, a Transmutation (Good) spell that states:
"This transmutation imbues a flask (1 pint) of water with positive energy, turning it into holy water."
Possibly Relevant: Empower Holy Water http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/empower-holy-water
Following the "Infernal Healing Pricing" thread, an argument broke out about the nature of 'unholy water' (and by extension, holy water). Holy water deals damage to undead and evil outsiders. It doesn't say "outsiders with the evil subtype" (though obviously, such outsiders are legitimate targets). Nor does it state anything about the alignment of a undead creature.
It works equally well on a CG ghost as it does on a typical Efreeti.
The question revolves around whether or not holy/unholy water is aligned. The spells that allow for it's creation are, but nothing in the text states that it is. It's easy to infer that something called "holy" should be good, but a LN Cleric of a LN God could make either holy or unholy water, in theory.
ACTUAL QUESTION: making holy water uses a Good spell. This can be construed as a Good act. Is the holy water inherently Good? Is using it inherently Good? Even if used against a good-aligned undead such as a ghost?
Example but possible campaign spoilers. You have been warned!
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Given that holy water is created via a magical effect, it should have an aura for detect magic. It might also have an aura for alignment detection abilities, provided the spell works on objects. I'm not certain the water itself is aligned, but it would have lingering traces of Good magic from it's creation.
It's otherwise normal water, with no listed change in weight or volume. I understand it to be drinkable water, too, with no special effects unless you are undead or an evil outsider.
As for the Good act thing, as per that other thread, the good act bit on spells is up to the GM. It is advice, not rules.
It is notable that the actual value of holy water is 35gp, not 25gp. That 25gp, as explained in the CRB, is a discount that temples of good deities offer. For all other financial transactions (like buying it from merchants), the cost of holy water is 35gp, which covers the material costs combined with the spell casting services cost.
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Given that holy water is created via a magical effect, it should have an aura for detect magic. It might also have an aura for alignment detection abilities, provided the spell works on objects. I'm not certain the water itself is aligned, but it would have lingering traces of Good magic from it's creation.
It's otherwise normal water, with no listed change in weight or volume. I understand it to be drinkable water, too, with no special effects unless you are undead or an evil outsider.
As for the Good act thing, as per that other thread, the good act bit on spells is up to the GM. It is advice, not rules.
It is notable that the actual value of holy water is 35gp, not 25gp. That 25gp, as explained in the CRB, is a discount that temples of good deities offer. For all other financial transactions (like buying it from merchants), the cost of holy water is 35gp, which covers the material costs combined with the spell casting services cost.
Instantaneous effects do not leave permanent magical traces. They only leave a lingering, but quickly fading, trace.
A minor note, but worth saying.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's water that has holes in it, obviously.
Technically, it is not.
Why is that relevant, btw?
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Technically, it is not.
Why is that relevant, btw?
An argument in another thread that was not entirely on topic and apparently needed a home. One person claims that unholy water is evil aligned, another claims that it is not. The first person claims they are being insulted by the second person when they say it isn't evil-aligned.
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An argument in another thread that was not entirely on topic and apparently needed a home. One person claims that unholy water is evil aligned, another claims that it is not. The first person claims they are being insulted by the second person when they say it isn't evil-aligned.Technically, it is not.
Why is that relevant, btw?
At the same time, dragging that drama into a new thread - related or not - does nothing to help the situation.
(And, having read the thread in question? Nobody's hands were clean of insult, on either side. To claim such is a gross mischaracterization of events.)
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An argument in another thread that was not entirely on topic and apparently needed a home. One person claims that unholy water is evil aligned, another claims that it is not. The first person claims they are being insulted by the second person when they say it isn't evil-aligned.Technically, it is not.
Why is that relevant, btw?
At the same time, dragging that drama into a new thread - related or not - does nothing to help the situation.
(And, having read the thread in question? Nobody's hands were clean of insult, on either side. To claim such is a gross mischaracterization of events.)
I seek to neither help nor hinder another thread's drama, only to provide a simple summary that includes no judgements as an answer to a direct question.
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As long as your summary is truthful and not one-sided, I'll have no need to offer correction.
Of course, none of this answers a question asked nor is it relevant to the main question.
But since you had something to say that means you think it was not truthful and worth talking about. I'll bite, which part was less than truthful?
Your arguments aside: I am still curious why it should matter if holy water has an alignment?
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Then, since you had something to say that means you think it was not truthful and worth talking about. I'll bite, which part was less than truthful?
As long as your summary is truthful and not one-sided, I'll have no need to offer correction.
First off: this is why these rule questions never get answered. It couldn't be accomplished any better if it were intentional. (I'm not implying that it is, just noting the results.)
Second: the part where you said that only one side was responsible for feeling insulted. Your implication that the other side was completely innocent of wrongdoing is deceptive and inaccurate.
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Your arguments aside: I am still curious why it should matter if holy water has an alignment?
Because certain spells with alignment descriptors require holy and unholy water as components. In debates over why these spells possess those descriptors, one theory was that the presence of these substances as components is what helps to make the spells good or evil.
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Your arguments aside: I am still curious why it should matter if holy water has an alignment?
"Is using the required component for Infernal Healing also an evil act?"
If unholy water is aligned evil and finding a use for something that is aligned evil is also an evil act... then casting infernal healing is equivalent to performing two evil acts.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like asking this is like asking what chocolate is. it's chocolate, idk it tastes good and kills dogs.
so what is holy water? idk it tastes good and kills outsiders.
Hm....sounds pretty theoretical to me.
And I know how to confuse those rule-lawyers a bit: a spell-like ability based on one of those spells does not require a component at all, but still has the same descriptor ;)
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Then, since you had something to say that means you think it was not truthful and worth talking about. I'll bite, which part was less than truthful?
As long as your summary is truthful and not one-sided, I'll have no need to offer correction.
First off: this is why these rule questions never get answered. It couldn't be accomplished any better if it were intentional. (I'm not implying that it is, just noting the results.)
Second: the part where you said that only one side was responsible for feeling insulted. Your implication that the other side was completely innocent of wrongdoing is deceptive and inaccurate.
I made no implications to whether party one or two were innocent of anything nor whether party one or two were correct. By my statement party two could have been insulting, thus justifying the first party's feelings. Or they could not have been. It states neither way nor does it say anything about possible wrongdoing of the first party.(being incorrect is not a wrongdoing, but either party could be that)
Or am I wrong about that? Is there a part that definitely says the second party is innocent of any possible wrongdoing?|
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Hm....sounds pretty theoretical to me.
And I know how to confuse those rule-lawyers a bit: a spell-like ability based on one of those spells does not require a component at all, but still has the same descriptor ;)
lol Fair enough. This may or may not have been brought up. But the question remains. Pure rules question, is holy water good-aligned?
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First off: this is why these rule questions never get answered. It couldn't be accomplished any better if it were intentional. (I'm not implying that it is, just noting the results.)
Second: the part where you said that only one side was responsible for feeling insulted. Your implication that the other side was completely innocent of wrongdoing is deceptive and inaccurate.
I made no implications to whether party one or two were innocent of anything nor whether party one or two were correct. By my statement party two could have been insulting, thus justifying the first party's feelings. Or they could not have been. It states neither way nor does it say anything about possible wrongdoing of the first party.
Or am I wrong about that? Is there a part that definitely says the second party is innocent of any possible wrongdoing?
Bolded for emphasis. Your omission of the facts is itself an implication.
In addition, we have:
The first person claims they are being insulted by the second person when they say it isn't evil-aligned.
1) an attempt to paint the first person as lying about being offended.
2) the implication that all the second person did is disagree, leaving out the flaming and hostility from everyone involved.
That said, I have writing to do, and since this is all likely to disappear when Community arrives, I see no need to waste any more time on it. My goal was for anyone who read this thread to see both sides, not just yours. Having achieved that, I'll leave you all to your debate.
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Um, "claims they are being insulted" is not the same as "claims they feel insulted". I made no mention in regard to personal feelings. Only that one side claims an insult was slung. (Example, someone says a 'yo mama' joke and you do not find it insulting... but you can recognize it as an insult and call it such. Feeling insulted and having an insult slung at you are not the same thing and either can happen regardless of the other being present.)
If you really want to achieve your goal, you should just post a link.
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But the question remains. Pure rules question, is holy water good-aligned?
In what respect?
I mean, are you asking if it has a GOOD aura?
Are you asking if using it is a GOOD act?
Perhaps the you are asking if the damage is considered GOOD aligned.
Or perhaps you merely want to know if the holy water itself has an alignment?
For answers:
I think it lacks an aura because, as corrected by you, holy water is an instantaneous magical effect, so it doesn't have a good aura.
Using holy water, I think is a non-aligned action, though since it is used often to damage creatures, definitely seems like something that could be used for evil purposes (torture or sadism).
The damage dealt is either untyped, or Acid damage, depending on how you read the holy water entry.
Holy water damages undead creatures and evil outsiders almost as if it were acid. A flask of holy water can be thrown as a splash weapon.
Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A flask breaks if thrown against the body of a corporeal creature, but to use it against an incorporeal creature, you must open the flask and pour the holy water out onto the target. Thus, you can douse an incorporeal creature with holy water only if you are adjacent to it. Doing so is a ranged touch attack that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
A direct hit by a flask of holy water deals 2d4 points of damage to an undead creature or an evil outsider. Each such creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of damage from the splash.
I play this to mean the damage is untype, but that first paragraph could be interpreted to mean that the damage is acid damage. In either case, there is no reference to the damage being "good" aligned
As for the alignment of the holy water itself. I believe it is considered an object and not a sentient one at that. So, no, I don't think it has an alignment.
Hm. It's not the silver that makes it good -- unholy water has the same material component as per Curse Water. (Curse Water Hazard is a cantrip with somatic and verbal components that are considered unprintable.)
Now I wonder what you get if you make things with holy (or unholy) water as an ingredient. Or if you just mix holy and unholy water. ('Fear me, for I bear the potent NEUTRAL WATER!') And I'm sure Cayden Cailean should have a 'Bless Booze' spell.
I don't think there's anything inherently good about holy water myself, especially since it harms all undead universally, regardless of alignment. It did this in D&D, despite the fact that there were more non-evil undead, and we still have a few, such as ghosts in Pathfinder.
It can be said, of course, that the state of undeath involves inherently evil forces, and I know that in Golarion, at least, that's the state intent. However, the rules of the game itself are inconsistent on this point.
Going back to our poor CG ghost, she is harmed by holy water, but takes no additional damage from a holy ghost touch sword than a regular ghost touch weapon.
So much for the "inherently evil" nature of undead.
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Paladins' Lay On Hands ability was never typed as Good or Positive Energy in the CRB, either. Up until they FAQ'd it that is.
Given that precedent, the Rules Lawyer in me says the RAI here is probably the same.
Holy water is distilled Celestial blood 2% suspended in distilled water.
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I don't think there's anything inherently good about holy water myself, especially since it harms all undead universally, regardless of alignment. It did this in D&D, despite the fact that there were more non-evil undead, and we still have a few, such as ghosts in Pathfinder.
It can be said, of course, that the state of undeath involves inherently evil forces, and I know that in Golarion, at least, that's the state intent. However, the rules of the game itself are inconsistent on this point.
Going back to our poor CG ghost, she is harmed by holy water, but takes no additional damage from a holy ghost touch sword than a regular ghost touch weapon.
So much for the "inherently evil" nature of undead.
Yah, undead are inherently associated with negative energy not evil. Though, their alignments are almost always evil in Pathfinder.
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Paladins' Lay On Hands ability was never typed as Good or Positive Energy in the CRB, either. Up until they FAQ'd it that is.
Given that precedent, the Rules Lawyer in me says the RAI here is probably the same.
Holy water is associated with positive energy, as that is what is infused into the water. No need for RAI.